Don't worry Junior. Just down to the sheer ignorance of some people.
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Don't worry Junior. Just down to the sheer ignorance of some people.
With the greatest of respect, I don't think people who are only of one ethnicity or nationality can really comment on what people of mixed heritage "should" feel, and who they "ought" to represent.
Which part(s) of your heritage you identify with is a purely personal thing. It's not necessarily limited to just the one small aspect, and it's certainly not for anyone else to dictate to you.
You're of mixed heritage Peadar aren't you? Forgive me if I made a wrong assumption, but I seem to remember you saying your Dad was English before (which explained why you supported Stoke)?Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Do you identify with that part of your heritage? That's assuming of course your Dad isn't Irish a la, Killer.
I have to go back generations to get off this island and even then I reckon that my Scottish ancestors who came to Ireland were probably Dal Riada so that kinda makes it null.
Plantation Land grabber!!!
But he has chosen, and he's made it fairly clear that he's both Scottish and Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Spot on that. My oldest son spent his formative years in London, so he grew up feeling English but very proud of his Irish ancestry. The youngest two spent their formative years in Liverpool. They felt much more Irish than the eldest lad and would have said that they are Irish and not English.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
It seems that if someone says something even remotely "controversial" (not that I think what I said was controversial) or not in keeping with the outlook of a few posters on any issues of nationality or similar, then they get slated unnecessarily e.g. "sheer ignorance" or "narrowminded".
The original post took umbrage with a journalist at the beeb, presumably English, :) calling James a Scot. I pointed out that it is accurate to call James a Scot. He was born in Scotland. It's really quite straightforward. His ancestry means that he is part-Irish, proud of it and therefore able to play for our football team. It would also be accurate to call him an Irish international. This doesn't make him solely Irish.
Why are people so sensitive and precious about this?
My point regarding Keown and Morrisson, though someone said it was "too easy", is the perfect point. I'm not making any statements about how these folks should feel as Peadar implied I was. I think those cases are actually "too difficult" to deduce. I struggle with it. If ArdeeBhoy goes by someone's proclaimed identification with or affinity with ancestry as the indicator for nationality then what of those two? What about the Gallens? The default position has to be that ancestry/eligibility whatever you want to call it doesn't and shouldnt override place of birth and residence for someone's entire life as being an accurate statement of nationality.
Can't we take this nationality talk to a more appropriate thread? Like the eligibility one? :p
Who said it makes him solely Irish? however in football terms, he's solely Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I replied to your obtuse commentQuote:
Why are people so sensitive and precious about this?
"he is a scot though! He simply plays international football for Ireland..." which implies no Irish ethnicity and which doesn't explain why he plays for Ireland. He plays for Ireland because he's also Irish.
It isn't an accurate statement of nationality, is it?Quote:
My point regarding Keown and Morrisson, though someone said it was "too easy", is the perfect point. I'm not making any statements about how these folks should feel as Peadar implied I was. I think those cases are actually "too difficult" to deduce. I struggle with it. If ArdeeBhoy goes by someone's proclaimed identification with or affinity with ancestry as the indicator for nationality then what of those two? What about the Gallens? The default position has to be that ancestry/eligibility whatever you want to call it doesn't and shouldnt override place of birth and residence for someone's entire life as being an accurate statement of nationality.
The default position of assuming somebody is only a Scot by dint of his his birthplace/residence, is overridden by our knowledge of the said person.
He is a dual national who has chosen to represent Ireland on the football stage.
So are us Southern Banditos more like Koreans or Mexicans:)?
Yes, my Dad's from Stoke, and although I identify primarily as Irish, I still do identify as English as well, or more specifically as midlands English, generally manifesting itself as a dislike of southerners! I think I've said before that I'll cheer for England in cricket, (except when they're playing Kevin O'Brien), but not in any other sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
On the other hand, my girlfriend is Dutch on both sides, going back generations, and moved to Scotland when she was 11. Now she speaks English with a Scottish accent, drinks whiskey, cheers for Scotland at rugby, and considers herself as Scottish as Dutch, in spite of not having any Scottish blood in her. I think she'd represent Scotland with pride if she was a top-class athlete given that chance.
Stu, my post wasn't aimed specifically at you, more at a general attitude that anyone not born in Ireland, or with purely Irish heritage is a "plastic paddy" who is only in it for cynical reasons. It's an attitude that seems almost as prevalent in Ireland as abroad, I think in no small part due to the fact that many people are ignorant of what it's actually like to have mixed heritage**.
**I rewrote that part about 3 times, and found it impossible to make it sound like it's not a constant struggle against overwhelming odds to have a parent born across the water! It's not, but I can't find a better way of phrasing it!
I was genuinely shocked that this photo already existed:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
http://act.americasvoiceonline.org/p...l_sombrero.jpg
Ha, how on earth did you stumble across that?
The usual wayQuote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Nobody. But people getting upset about him being called a Scot must want him to be referred to as Irish. Fortunately, football terms don't dictate nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
It was in no way, shape or form an obtuse comment. He is a Scot. He plays football for Ireland. That this sentiment upsets you is mind boggling to me. The very fact that he plays international football for Ireland proves that he has irish ethnicity, I don't think that needs to be pointed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Yes it is an accurate statement of nationality. More accurate would be Scots Irish. I'll spell it out for you again and anyone else who wants to continue to take my statement and get upset by it. The OP took issue with the fact that he was called a Scot. I pointed out that it is an accurate statement. Nowhere did I decry his Irishness.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
"Scots Irish" is a term used to describe Ulster-Scots from the North and their descendents in America so it wouldn't be accurate at all. The reason I made the OP is because as far as football is concerned his nationality is Irish and Irish alone, he is not eligible to play for Scotland under FIFA rules, so why describe him as a Scot in a football article unless it's ignorance about his FIFA status or to make some sort of statement? Is Kris Commons called "the Englishman" on the BBC site? Will they refer to Wilfried Zaha as Ivorian even though he's an England international?
Fantastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
You wait for a moment of genuine comedic gold to come along, then Aengus MacGrianna and peadar1987 deliver in the same week!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Won't labour the point, suffice to say I entirely disagree. And a good job you've not met a few people from the west of Scotland. They would not be impressed.
What will be interesting is to see the reaction of people when a talented Irish kid with an English parent opts to play for England.
We couldn't reasonably have any complaint with it but I imagine many will have a huge issue
How do you know that will happen?
I imagine it would be closer to the furore over Rory McIlroy saying he felt more British than the understanding towards Eoin Morgan, but I don't think it would be the end of the world.
edit: according to wikipedia it hasn't happened before in football: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ide_of_England
Off the top of my head, I can think of one example in rugby: Kieran Bracken, who was born here but grew up in England.