Stephen Kenny

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Your coefficients are utter boll*cks

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UEFA's coefficients, not mine. Same ones they use today

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Wales is ranked higher than Spain with 5 teams

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Countries with one team will skew it; just the way averages work. Same as no-one will argue that Liechtenstein league is 38th today. No point using unusual exceptions to argue a point; stats don't work that way.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

But if England were the top league then how come they spectacularly failed to break the Dutch and then German dominance of European football until the great Liverpool team of the late 1970s? and how come English team failed to qualify of tournaments throughout the 1970s?

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I've already answered that. There's a difference between the strongest team (Ajax/Bayern) and the strongest league (which looks at strength in depth, which is more relevant here). And Leeds fans will tell you they were screwed by the ref in 75 European Cup final against Bayern.

I'm not arguing Giles isn't a better manager than Kenny so I'm not sure what you think you're gaining with the comparison there. What I (and others) are arguing is that the English league back then wasn't as bad as you made out. In fact, in terms of strength in depth, it was probably the strongest in Europe.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Hes not getting a new deal, and I cant remember how much hes on annually, but lets say he makes 600K per year, that would mean a months wages is $50K... for a man whos not a multimillionaire ex footballer thats a lot of money to leave behind if he resigned

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The FAI and Kenny can come to some agreement I'm sure, maybe mutual consent. I do think he cares too much to stay on just for money especially when its only 50k, him staying doesnt do him or Ireland any good so the best thing for everyone would be he moves on after tonight.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

I don't what logic there is in him staying until next month, he know's there is no chance he's getting a new deal and odds are the play off possibility will be off the table after tonight. Surely it would be better from his perspective to leave on his own terms rather than just being kicked like he will be after next months games?

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I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

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I was aswell and I'm both sad for my ego as ive been proven wrong but also for Kenny as I really liked what he was trying to do but sadly it just wasnt meant to be unfortunately. I do think he cares deeply and that's why I dont want to stick the boot in on him but at some point we have to draw the line and I felt the Dutch game was that line, I also believe because he cares so deeply that if Ireland's chances are done tonight he will walk as I think he cares too much about this team to string them along next month just for a pay out.

That's my main issue and why I wanted change, while we may be easier on the eye we have lost our toughness as a result which to be was the best characteristics of this side. I would like a manager that finds a balance between playing good football, not neccessarily tiki taka stuff but just something that doesnt put be to sleep, and being tough which I feel is definetly possible with the right man. Who is that man, well that's the question and the sooner we start looking the sooner we'll have our answer.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

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Im with you Tony, I gave him longer than I probably would other because I thought he had a huge job to change the age profile of the team, but unfortunately he just wasnt up to taking it further and in the end I think he lost his bottle with younger players tbh.

I still the bones of a decent side are there, especially with a few more additions from current u21s. Next manager is vital to be able to build a team around Ferguson and get the best out of him I believe.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

The FAI and Kenny can come to some agreement I'm sure, maybe mutual consent. I do think he cares too much to stay on just for money especially when its only 50k, him staying doesnt do him or Ireland any good so the best thing for everyone would be he moves on after tonight.

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Kenny will be lucky to make fifty grand a season in football management. He's headed straight back to the LoI and will likely never get a gig elsewhere. Fifty grand is huge money to him. He's entitled to it, and the FAI are in no position to pay him off. That's the only reason he's been allowed to stay on so long.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

Kenny will be lucky to make fifty grand a season in football management. He's headed straight back to the LoI and will likely never get a gig elsewhere. Fifty grand is huge money to him. He's entitled to it, and the FAI are in no position to pay him off. That's the only reason he's been allowed to stay on so long.

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Sure that was small change when the Celtic Tiger roared ! ! !

How absurd is it that a team in Ireland's form are still in with a chance of a playoff.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

UEFA's coefficients, not mine. Same ones they use today

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And they are still boll*cks

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Countries with one team will skew it; just the way averages work. Same as no-one will argue that Liechtenstein league is 38th today. No point using unusual exceptions to argue a point; stats don't work that way.

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And clearly if one team can skew the results then the results are useless - stats don't work that way.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I've already answered that. There's a difference between the strongest team (Ajax/Bayern) and the strongest league (which looks at strength in depth, which is more relevant here). And Leeds fans will tell you they were screwed by the ref in 75 European Cup final against Bayern.

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Yes - Leeds were screwed over in the 75 final - but that still does not negate the fact that the Dutch and Germans (well about 2/3 of the Germans) dominated European football in the early 1970s. Remember Holland is country that had a population of 13million in 1970 - England's population was more than four times that.

And by the way - I didn't argue that the English League was not a strong league - I argued that it was not the dominant league that it is today - to quote 'In 1974 the standard of English football wasn't anywhere close to its position in Europe now and few if any foreign players played in England' - today almost 70% of the players in the PL are foreign - and that is going to directly impact where and with which clubs Irish players play in England. Furthermore, there were only a handful of black players plying in the top division in England at the time - institutionalised racism existed in English football. The first black player to play for England was Viv Anderson in 1978.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'm not arguing Giles isn't a better manager than Kenny so I'm not sure what you think you're gaining with the comparison there. What I (and others) are arguing is that the English league back then wasn't as bad as you made out. In fact, in terms of strength in depth, it was probably the strongest in Europe.

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1. the comparison is clear - the argument being made is that we have poorer quality players than in times past - that is simply not true - and it demonstrates not that Kenny is not as good as Giles - but that he is absolutely atrocious as an international manager. He is the worst ever manager of the Irish team (and worse than the FAI committee who picked the teams pre-1960s) - and probably one of the worst international managers ever in European football.
2. I have demonstrated that your coefficients are boll*cks and that your arguments do not hold water when it comes to English football in the early 1970s. Now if we were arguing about the late 1970s and early 1980s it would be a different story - then you had English teams that were dominating in Europe and you had a domestic league that was of a significantly higher standard than 4-5 years earlier (including a WBA team that Giles got promoted and built to be a top 8 team in England - while he was doubling up as Irish manager - laying the foundations for Ron Atkinson who followed him as manager).

Pineapple and Jolly, this is off topic and should be taken to PMs.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

And [the statistics] are still boll*cks

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Because you say so?

I am reminded of the old Chico Marx line: "Who ya gonna believe, me or the evidence of your own eyes?"

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Yes - Leeds were screwed over in the 75 final - but that still does not negate the fact that the Dutch and Germans (well about 2/3 of the Germans) dominated European football in the early 1970s. Remember Holland is country that had a population of 13million in 1970 - England's population was more than four times that.

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You have consistently cited 1974 as your (continental) high water mark, so 1975 is hardly that far off. And in any case, the question is which was the strongest league back then, not which league happened to have the strongest club (Ajax, Bayern etc).

And since a string of top teams don't spontaneously emerge out of nowhere, how do you explain the Football League's run in the European Cup after Leeds i.e. 6 successive wins by 3 different teams? Someone suddenly sprinkiling magic dust around?

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

And by the way - I didn't argue that the English League was not a strong league - I argued that it was not the dominant league that it is today - to quote 'In 1974 the standard of English football wasn't anywhere close to its position in Europe now and few if any foreign players played in England' - today almost 70% of the players in the PL are foreign - and that is going to directly impact where and with which clubs Irish players play in England.

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And how many overseas players were playing eg in the Bundesliga or the Eredvisie back then?

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Furthermore, there were only a handful of black players plying in the top division in England at the time - institutionalised racism existed in English football. The first black player to play for England was Viv Anderson in 1978.

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"And your point is, caller?"

For information, the first black player to represent eg West Germany was Kostedde, against Malta in 1974, and the first capped eg by Spain was da Silva in 1994.

While every single player in the two starting line-ups in the 1974 World Cup Final was white. That was the Final between (ahem) Netherlands and West Germany btw, with Ajax and Bayern well represented.

As for Viv Anderson, regardless of his international career, fact is he was also contributing directly to the strength of English club football at the time. Or was it a different Viv Anderson who won two European Cup winners medals in succeeding seasons?

We can all cherry pick one or two individual points to try to back up a particular theory, but if you ignore the bigger picture, including all the available evidence to back it up, including statistics, then your theory is liable to be misplaced.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

1. the comparison is clear - the argument being made is that we have poorer quality players than in times past - that is simply not true - and it demonstrates not that Kenny is not as good as Giles - but that he is absolutely atrocious as an international manager. He is the worst ever manager of the Irish team (and worse than the FAI committee who picked the teams pre-1960s) - and probably one of the worst international managers ever in European football.

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It is hardly contradictory to believe that the standard of ROI players is lower than it was in former times AND that SK is not up to international management.

This observer, who also remembers the 1970's, would agree with both.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

I have demonstrated that your coefficients are boll*cks and that your arguments do not hold water when it comes to English football in the early 1970s. Now if we were arguing about the late 1970s and early 1980s it would be a different story - then you had English teams that were dominating in Europe and you had a domestic league that was of a significantly higher standard than 4-5 years earlier (including a WBA team that Giles got promoted and built to be a top 8 team in England - while he was doubling up as Irish manager - laying the foundations for Ron Atkinson who followed him as manager).

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Not to this poster, you haven't.

How or why can you explain how the Football League suddenly went from being mediocre in 1974 to being dominant by 1977? Did they suddenly start importing foreign players in the meantime? Or forget to be racist? Did they have another couple of Brian Cloughs that we have somehow forgotten about?

I mean, you cite racism and xenophobia as causes for the (relative) weakness of English football in the early-mid 70's, but as late as 1982, Aston Villa won the European Cup with a team managed by Tony Barton (no Rinus Michels or Helmut Schon he) and consisting of 8 Englishmen and 3 Scots, all of them white. While their opponents, Bayern, fielded 11 white German players too (though their manager was Hungarian, I'll give you that.)

EDIT: Oops! Just noticed John83's post, above. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

I remember being at Wembley September 1976 - Giles was player manager and we drew 1-1; for me that was like when we beat USSR 3-0 in 1973 another brilliant performance by a Giles managed team and he was light years ahead of Kenny when it came to management ( all based on a style of ball retention rather than lashing it up the pitch , which at the time wasn’t appreciated).

May not of been a Messiah ( albeit would of except for corrupt decisions mentioned previously) , so in my book I’d rate him as best manager since Tuohy was installed as our first manager back in the early 1970s…… and I’d rate Kenny as our worst ( he pips Staunton).

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Giles the best manager since Tuohy ? His record is:

John Giles’ Record as Irish Manager

Played Won Drew Lost
37------14-----9---14

against Charlton's

Played Won Drew Lost
94------47---30----17

They bear no comparison and Charlton was appointed only 5 years after Giles. The latter had some great players in their prime including Brady, Heighway, Stapleton and others before we talk about squad strength. Even O'Neill and Trappatoni had better records. No denying some very good results but when push came to shove, he failed. I remember a draw in Turkey in particular and that loss in Switzerland.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Giles the best manager since Tuohy ? His record is:

John Giles’ Record as Irish Manager

Played Won Drew Lost
37------14-----9---14

against Charlton's

Played Won Drew Lost
94------47---30----17

They bear no comparison and Charlton was appointed only 5 years after Giles. The latter had some great players in their prime including Brady, Heighway, Stapleton and others before we talk about squad strength. Even O'Neill and Trappatoni had better records. No denying some very good results but when push came to shove, he failed. I remember a draw in Turkey in particular and that loss in Switzerland.

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Liam Touhy had the potential to be one of the best managers ever - but never got a proper opportunity by anybody - and was screwed over by the FAI - twice. He did an incredible job with Ireland with very limited resources - while also holding down a full-time job to feed his family.

As for the comparison between Giles - and Charlton, Trap and O'Neill - you are not comparing like with like. To start with, Ireland during the Giles era rarely played friendlies - they were always in the bottom pot for three and occasionally four team groups. - there were no Gibralters, San Marinos, Faroes, Lichensteins, Andorras (or any of the smaller former Soviet satellite countries or former Yugoslavia countries). The 1960s and 1970s were notorious at international level for the bigger countries to get all the referring decisions - games in Eastern Europe were always under a cloud of bribery and corruption. Under Giles Ireland could have qualified for the 1974 WC with fair refereeing - the 1976 Euros were it not for a corrupt referee in Russia - and they were absolutely, and literally, robbed of qualification for the 1978 WC because of corrupt matchday officials.

Charlton was a major success with Ireland - but was only appointed after deep splits on the FAI executive and chaos around the voting - both Giles and Liam Touhy were on the short-list with Charlton and all three got three votes each - Bob Paisley got nine votes. Liam Touhy got screwed over and was the name dropped from the second round of ballots - before eventually Charlton was appointed ahead of Paisley on a 10-8 vote. Now - I would argue that potentially - all of the other three candidates would have done as good a job - if not a better job - than Charlton. But that is in the realm of 'what ifs'. But Charton had the benefit of a powerful squad - and Charlton, Trap and O'Neill had the benefit of games against 'minnows' and a large number of friendlies. It took Giles 8 years to get to 37 games - Charlton got his 94 games in ten years - Trap got to 64 in five years - and O'Neill got to 55 in five years. Kenny has 38 games in not much over three years.

It is not a like-for-like comparison.

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.

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Kenny has been a disaster as Irish football manager.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.

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I looked at the Transfermarkt lists of goal-scorers in the Premier League and EFL Championship for 2022/23. I have omitted omitted underage caps and 'eligible but not yet selected' players. These figures may not be 100% accurate but they are pretty close.

Premiership goals 22/23: Wales 17, Ireland 8 (thanks to Ferguson's 6)

Championship goals 22/23: Wales 61, Ireland 71.

Can't make a valid comparison with Scotland, given the (declining) importance of the SPL, but for what it's worth: Premiership goals: 10, Championship 66

Its Stephen Kennys birthday today. Im sure everyone on here agrees it would be the perfect time to award him the new contract he has earned in this campaign......

Happy Birthday Stephen! After RLP's post, i decided to look to the stars for answers...

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Scorpio (October 23 - November 21)
Scorpio is one of the most misunderstood signs of the zodiac. Because of its incredible passion and power, Scorpio is often mistaken for a fire sign. In fact, Scorpio is a water sign that derives its strength from the psychic, emotional realm. Like fellow water signs, Cancer and Pisces, Scorpio is extremely clairvoyant (hahahaaaa) and intuitive.

What makes this water sign unique is its distinctive venomous sting (think we're all feeling a bit stung alright). Like their celestial spirit animal, the scorpion, Scorpios lie in wait and strike when least expected (still waiting TBF). Life is a game of chess (more like drafts in this case) for these calculating water signs, who are constantly plotting several steps ahead (I wish) in order to orchestrate an eventual checkmate. This doesn't mean their intentions are necessarily nefarious. Scorpios simply know what they want and aren't afraid to work hard and play the long game (very long game obv) to get it.

They never show their cards and their enigmatic nature is what makes them so seductive and beguiling (LOL). Scorpio is the sign most closely associated with sex: The part of the body that Scorpio governs is the genital area. Sex isn't solely about pleasure for these sensual scorpions. They also crave the physical closeness, spiritual illumination, and emotional intimacy sex can provide. (his poor wife)

Scorpio is ruled by Pluto, the planet that governs both destruction and transformation (or destruction thru transformation in our case). On a good day, Scorpion energy is ambitious and enticing. On a bad day, however, the shadowy side of Scorpio is fueled by a relentless desire for control. Power-hungry Scorpios must remember that if controlled by their egos, they are at risk of poisoning themselves. This sign is at its best when that intrinsic intensity is applied to deep, soulful connections with friends and lovers. When they build trust with others, Scorpios demonstrate unparalleled empathy, depth, and commitment that brighten even the darkest parts of Scorpio’s magical psyche.(star signs are hard work)

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Scorpio governs the genitals. I think we can all agree he's made a balls of things.

Confirmation of his departure,the best for everyone I think.

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Originally Posted by joey B

Confirmation of his departure,the best for everyone I think.

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Will I have to get a new signature underneath my posts as well now ?