Eligibility Rules, Okay

This article sums up my feelings on the present McClean issue. The emotion that has been generated by it has been extraordinary. It's good that Martin O'Neill has now stepped in and counselled him.
But essentially, how can NI fans really expect McClean to play for them when sectarianism seems to continue to be prevalent in NI?
I have tried very badly on here in the past to articulate my point, but the IFA can come with as many initiatives they like, this underlining attitude will continue to alienate Nationalist players.
Outcry when they do play for us infuriates me as it seems to be hypocritical. I have mentioned this before on here, but soon this outcry could increase dramatically if Duffy, Wilson, Gibson, McClean and possibly George form the nucleus of a future Ireland team.


http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...m-3105934.html

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Originally Posted by gastric

But essentially, how can NI fans really expect McClean to play for them when sectarianism seems to continue to be prevalent in NI?
I have tried very badly on here in the past to articulate my point, but the IFA can come with as many initiatives they like, this underlining attitude will continue to alienate Nationalist players.

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You are aware that sectarianism exists in both communities in Northern Ireland?

Can you see how some of McClean's recent comments, referencing his religious beliefs, could be construed as sectarian?

Interesting that you highlight a piece featuring the views of the Chief of The Community Relations Council in Northern Ireland - could I suggest you visit their website, and type 'football' into the search facility.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

You are aware that sectarianism exists in both communities in Northern Ireland?

Can you see how some of McClean's recent comments, referencing his religious beliefs, could be construed as sectarian?

Interesting that you highlight a piece featuring the views of the Chief of The Community Relations Council in Northern Ireland - could I suggest you visit their website, and type 'football' into the search facility.

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NB, I agree with your first two points. sectarianism is certainly across the different communities and James McClean has not helped by his repeated comments about playing for NI. However, it is this sectarianism, whatever your opinion, which makes this such an emotive issue and leads to players choosing one side over the other as with McClean. I will read the football section mentioned above when I can.

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Originally Posted by gastric

However, it is this sectarianism, whatever your opinion, which makes this such an emotive issue and leads to players choosing one side over the other as with McClean.

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I disagree.

I believe players' like McClean choose the South over Northern Ireland because that's where their heart lies. I think Danny Invincible has it bang on in this regard.

The Republic's team is not a second choice for the likes of McClean - it was his dream to play for them.

Do you not think this right of choice is a good thing?

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Originally Posted by gastric

However, it is this sectarianism, whatever your opinion, which makes this such an emotive issue and leads to players choosing one side over the other as with McClean.

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Wouldn't agree at all. I think you misunderstand the motives of nationalists/republicans, or Catholics as James might say. :p

Whether sectarianism exists in NI or not, nationalists/republicans will still identify as Irish and will hold a natural affinity to the Ireland team as a result. My family and friends from north of the border who support Ireland don't support Ireland because they were driven to do so by either sectarianism on their own parts or the sectarianism of others. I think it's slightly patronising to suggest they're not actually Irish and their affinity with Ireland is merely something manufactured by sectarian conditions. They've grown up supporting Ireland because they identify with the sense of Irishness channelled through the Ireland team. It's a proactive support rather than a reactive one. They don't "shun" the NI team because they're bitter or sectarian towards it and its fans; the notion of supporting it just doesn't really come into play because it's a cultural irrelevance in that it represents an Irish/British identity that is alien to them.

The best thing for community relations would be to stop trying to impose notions of peace and reconciliation upon people. That's something that comes from within and attempts to impose it just generates further animosity. Nationalists don't have to play for NI in order to build bridges. I can happily respect the NI team and their fans without support for them being expected of me. Likewise, the IFA approach is a much more mature and sensible one now (although I know NB feels they could do more, but that's their business and I'd have no problem with his proposal). I no longer have any major gripe with the IFA or NB on this issue. We are at peace and our positions can be reconciled, if you will, but we can also still support our respective teams. The two need not be mutually exclusive.

I don't know whether or not this would constitute "eligibility discussion" in the McClean thread, but I'll just post this here to be safe as it's not relating to on-field matters.

Tony Fearon tweeted that James received sectarian abuse on his flight home last night: https://twitter.com/#!/TonyFearon/st...98312368672768

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Have it on very good authority that James Mc Clean was on flight from Newcastle to Belfast tonight and was subjected to sectarian abuse.

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of the vile sectarian nature on account of his decision to play for Ireland

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couple of lads in bus going from airport to car park,coming from Man U game,said he got abuse from local NI/Man U fans.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Tony Fearon

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Tony giving off about sectarianism is quite an irony.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I don't know whether or not this would constitute "eligibility discussion" in the McClean thread, but I'll just post this here to be safe as it's not relating to on-field matters.

Tony Fearon tweeted that James received sectarian abuse on his flight home last night: https://twitter.com/#!/TonyFearon/st...98312368672768

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In one ear, out the other! F**k them!!

The extent of this abuse is mental like although if your up in the North you might not be as shocked by its extent. For example had to laugh/cry last night when I logged onto facebook and seen a post from a NI fan imploring Johnny Evans to break McClean's legs in the match yesterday which was bad enough but it gets worse, last I checked it had 12 likes and those that I knew who had liked it were also NI fans. Honest to God like some NI fans really need to get over this or else it will undo the progress has been made by the IFA.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I disagree.

I believe players' like McClean choose the South over Northern Ireland because that's where their heart lies. I think Danny Invincible has it bang on in this regard.

The Republic's team is not a second choice for the likes of McClean - it was his dream to play for them.

Do you not think this right of choice is a good thing?

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But didn't McClean represent NI at junior level before choosing the Republic? My only point is that he made a choice and the nature of different community loyalty in NI played a part in his decision making.

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Originally Posted by gastric

But didn't McClean represent NI at junior level before choosing the Republic? My only point is that he made a choice and the nature of different community loyalty in NI played a part in his decision making.

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Regrettably, McClean did represent Northern Ireland up to Under 21 level.

Why is it unhealthy that he made a choice, in part, based on his republican political outlook?

Do you not think that player's with such an outlook as McClean should have the choice to ply their international trade representing the political entity they feel part of?

It is not the fault of the IFA that McClean has an Irish Republican political outlook.

The fact there is a choice reflects the the fact that are two, quite different, political outlooks on this island regarding identity and nationality.

Ah so the GFA agreed by both British and Irish governments and the people of Ireland (north and south) stated that those born in the 6 counties could be Irish or British or both, what was that again, oh ya the majority required in NI agreed to this too, I get it now.....

So, you can be Irish if you like, but to play for us accept that you will be looking at Union Jacks, listening to GSTQ and surrounded by(mostly) people who don't care for your beliefs or heritage.

Thanks NB.

I was going to respond but my brain just fell out of my ears trying to do so.

I do think that the fact that so many nationalists, that harbour dreams to play for the FAI's team, end up playing for the IFA 's team has much to do with the expediency of geography and NI Schools FA's access to them initially.

NB, your dream of having only those playing for the IFA that have dreamt of doing so whilst noble is unworkable due to the difficulty in "weeding" out of those who wish to play for the FAI's team at such a young age due to geographic issue.

It's easy to talk of and expect moral purism as external observers, but I dunno if a kid who'd have grown up supporting and dreaming of playing for Ireland is going to voluntarily reject international recognition that could prove beneficial to his budding career, even if it is with NI who obviously wouldn't have been his preference. Of course, the IFA would be entitled to ask him where his loyalties might lie and they would be under no obligation to select him if he told them they lay with the FAI, but is it realistic to expect such moral integrity, sacrifice and stoicism from kids who can't even spell such words?

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Originally Posted by gastric

But didn't McClean represent NI at junior level before choosing the Republic?

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That's not necessarily indicative of preference though. He accepted the IFA's call-ups to get a chance of playing international football. He dropped his head whilst standing through the pre-match anthem, but it obviously wasn't somewhere he felt culturally comfortable. I suppose you could say he saw it through for the benefit of his career and might well have thought that realising his dream of playing for Ireland was beyond him. Niall McGinn similarly felt his dream of playing for Ireland was beyond him and opted to accept NI senior caps for pragmatic/careerist reasons. He still plays for them but supports Ireland.

McClean accepted the FAI's call-ups to get a chance of playing for Ireland; the country he's supported since a boy. As soon as that possibility became a reality, he never looked back.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

but is it realistic to expect such moral integrity, sacrifice and stoicism from kids who can't even spell such words?

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The 'is it fair to criticise' argument is on that I don't accept. He was an adult FFS.

Is it realistic to expect an adult to decide not to represent a team at underage level when he feels uncomfortable representing them and has supported another international team since he was a boy? Yes it is.


If we are to believe that McClean has been a ROI fan since a young boy, then his representing NI at underage level as a 'stepping stone' is something he should definitely be criticised for, and it's something he should be apologising for, rather than seemingly being proud of.

I was referring to players more generally, but McClean did appear to express regret for having represented NI on Twitter, whilst he more recently acknowledged that admitting they were a stepping stone was "probably the wrong thing to say": http://www.u.tv/Sport/NI-youth-team-...0-ec6bbe67976c

At the time of his NI call-ups though, it was unlikely he believed an FAI call-up would ever come. If the call had never come and he went on to represent NI at senior level, would his participation in their youth squads still have been wrong? I still think it's important to acknowledge that his participation in their youth set-up wasn't all take on his part. The IFA also benefited in some form or another from his participation, or voluntary service, if you will, although I do accept that planning for the future is a fundamental aim of youth football. In saying that, not all players who do represent associations at youth level go on to play senior football for that association, so just as the association has no obligation to continue selecting certain players, the players themselves have no obligation to continue making themselves available for the association.

I was just reading about the case of Croatia's Ivan Rakitić last night. He was born in Switzerland to Croatian parents and played for Switzerland from under-17 to under-21 level before switching to Croatia. He's since gone on to receive nearly 40 senior caps for Croatia, but was similarly subjected to abuse and even death threats in Switzerland at the time he opted to switch. Did he also do wrong? It's easy to be so black and white about it from the stands in hindsight.

There's also the case of Asmir Begović; although born in Trebinje when it was part of Yugoslavia, he grew up in Canada, played for them at under-20 level and even accepted a call-up to their senior squad (although he didn't play) before switching to Bosnia & Herzegovina. Quotes on his international ambitions attributed to him are interesting.

On speculation that he may be intending to switch from Canada to B&H in 2009:

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I've played for Canada for a long time. There's no decision, I don’t want to switch… but there is a state of uncertainty with Canada soccer (next coach, etc). Get things in place and I'm happy to stay with Canada, that's where I see my future… I've been approached by Bosnia. There were talks… but I have no intention on playing for Bosnia.

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[T]his isn't a threat or an ultimatum. Myself and some of the other guys just want to know what's going on. We can really build on our squad and succeed.

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The CSA has been really good… no pressure – I would never make a decision without speaking to the CSA. Bosnia – there's been a lot of speculation, pressure/heat from them. If I was to make a decision, it can’t be made that quickly... I don't want to change... it's not really an issue right now.

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I have never had a problem playing for Canada… there shouldn't be a change.

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Less than two months later he accepted a call-up to the B&H squad and said:

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I was born in Trebinje. Bosnia and Herzegovina is my homeland and I wouldn't be disappointed even if I don't get a chance to play right away

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

NB, your dream of having only those playing for the IFA that have dreamt of doing so whilst noble is unworkable due to the difficulty in "weeding" out of those who wish to play for the FAI's team at such a young age due to geographic issue.

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What are the "geographic issues" at Under 19?

Are most of these young adults not with Clubs across the water by then?

Red herring BS - as easy to jump on a plane from Britain to Dublin as it is to Belfast.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Ah so the GFA agreed by both British and Irish governments and the people of Ireland (north and south) stated that those born in the 6 counties could be Irish or British or both, what was that again, oh ya the majority required in NI agreed to this too, I get it now.....

So, you can be Irish if you like, but to play for us accept that you will be looking at Union Jacks, listening to GSTQ and surrounded by(mostly) people who don't care for your beliefs or heritage.

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Northern Ireland remains part of the United Kingdom - as endorsed by a sizeable majority of those who voted in the South.

The IFA is a "British Association" as defined by FIFA.

For fear of repeating myself, I fully support the notion that the IFA should introduce a new "sporting" Anthem for use at matches.

I'm not adverse to the IFA adopting the St Patrick's Cross as it's "official" flag either.

Do I believe such changes would mean that players with a republican political outlook like McClean would opt for the IFA over the FAI? - Absolutely not.

There is only one way to find out.

It would certainly have made someone like Mcclean feel a lot more comfortable, as to what he experienced, from his comments on this matter.

If that player felt a lot more comfortable and worked his way up from schoolboy u15, u16 all the way up to u21, then I'm sure it would make their decision a lot tougher. Once you are properly embedded, like say Gerry Armstrong, your loyalties can most certainly change.

I obviously would like that they represented us, but thats my problem.