Stephen Kenny

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

You might want to research English clubs in European finals in the seventies

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I grew up in the 70s - I know more about English football in the 70s than any decade since.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Bert Kassies has the UEFA coefficients going back to the start of European football. I'm not sure if he created them back that far or if they were in operation then (on the same basis as now)

Anyway, in 1974, the English league was comfortably the top-ranked in Europe

https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/crank1974.html

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And we are back to stats again -

Let's look at English football in 1974 -

The European Cup was dominated by Ajax and then Bayern Munich from 1970-1976 (it wasn't until Bob Paisley's great Liverpool team of the late 70s and early 80s, coupled with Clough's Forest for a couple of years, that England began dominating European football) - the Cup Winners Cup - Chelsea won in 1971 and then an English team didn't win again for the rest of the decade - UEFA cup - Spurs won in 1972 and Liverpool in 1973 and 1976, but it was dominated by German and Dutch clubs.

Furthermore, England failed to qualify for the World Cup in 1974, the European Championships in 1976 and the World Cup in 1978 - at a time when there was only a handful of non-British / Irish players in the First Division.

Football fans in the 1970s looked to the total football of the great Dutch teams (club and international - Cruyff, Haan, Jensen, Krol, Neeskens, Rosenbrink, Rep, the Van Der Kerkoff twins) and the great German teams of this period (with the likes of Mayer, Vogts, Beckenbaur, Netzer, Heynckes, Overath, Muller, Hoeness, Bonhof) - there was nothing comparable in English football.

But more importantly - 1974 was pre-Bosman ruling - Foreign players didn't play in English football. The 22 English teams had a combined FIVE non-British / Irish players in their squads - and with the exception of Clyde Best (Bermuda) and Colin Vijeon (South Africa), the others were reserves. If European/global players could have signed for English clubs (again pre-Bosman) then there would, at best, have been three Irish players playing in the first division (Giles, Heighway and Don Givens - and maybe Brady would have got some games for Arsenal, given his age). Indeed several Irish players who were with second division teams would have probably found themselves down a further division.

Johnny Giles knew how to manage a football team - and Leeds would have become a dominant European team if Giles had been made manager instead of Clough. With Ireland he took a wide variety of footballing talents from three different divisions, many of them bit-part players, knew how to use them and made them significantly better than the sum of their parts. More importantly - he made them very organised, very difficult to beat and bad luck (and widespread corruption in international football in the 1970s) deprived Ireland of qualification in more than one occasion in this period. In 1976 Ireland came second in a Euros qualifying group with Russia, Turkey and Switzerland, missing qualification by one point - and the Irish team were robbed in Russia. For 1978 we were in a qualify group with France and Bulgaria and were ambushed by a corrupt referee and linesman in Sofia. Ireland dominated the game, had a perfectly good goal ruled out for offside, Bulgaria were given a dodgy goal and Mick Martin and Noel Campbell got sent off in a game where Bulgaria kicked lumps out of the Irish players. This was at a time that only one team qualified - and there were no play-offs or Nations League spots - where international managers might have 3/4 games a year and Giles was also player-manager of West Brom at the same time.

Kenny has had three years where he was set-up for the job and nearly four year in it (with now 37 games - in the 8 years Giles was in charge he had 37 games). But Kenny has done the exact opposite of Giles (and Charlton, McCarthy, Kerr and Trapatoni) - the Irish team is disjointed, disorganised, have no idea what they are supposed to be doing (except pass the ball around between Bazunu and the two central defenders), and have zero fight in them - they couldn't win a punch up with a paper bag - and that is something that even Steve Staunton's team could have done. Now - the Irish squad is not at the standard as previous Irish squads - the Charlton era or the McCarthy 2002 squad - but we are better than being dominated at home by the likes of Greece and being beaten at home by Luxembourg and losing to Armenia - 5 wins in 25 competitive matches - against Azerbaijan, Luxembourg, Scotland, Armenia, and Gibraltar - there hasn't been a worst performance from and Irish team in 100 years - and we have had some really dodgy squads who had an FAI committee selecting the team for the first 50 of those years.

The problem is that the FAI get to also pick the next guy - and we know what the FAI are like.

Gus Poyet throwing his hat into the ring for the Ireland.

That's just rubbing it in. :-)

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

The European Cup was dominated by Ajax and then Bayern Munich from 1970-1976 (it wasn't until Bob Paisley's great Liverpool team of the late 70s and early 80s, coupled with Clough's Forest for a couple of years, that England began dominating European football) - the Cup Winners Cup - Chelsea won in 1971 and then an English team didn't win again for the rest of the decade - UEFA cup - Spurs won in 1972 and Liverpool in 1973 and 1976, but it was dominated by German and Dutch clubs.

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The problem with your analysis is that you're only looking at tournament winners. It was a far more even period for sure, so you did have winners from a wider range of countries. But the advantage of the coefficient is that it shows a wider range of performances, and in that regard it shows the English league as a whole had more strength in depth.

It certainly wasn't the case that every player in the world had an ambition to play in it like the Premier League - though no-one's claiming that - but to play in it was to play in the top league in European football at the time. Ajax and Bayern were great teams, but the English top flight was the best league.

England's non-qualification in that time was remarkable even at the time - in 1978 they won five of their six games but lost to Italy on goal difference, when only one team qualified. 1974 they battered Poland but Tomaszewski wrote himself into the record books. In 1976 they were second behind the eventual champions. These things could happen when only one team qualified; they were still one of the top teams in the world at this time. Barely outside the top ten in the world throughout that period in fact, and mostly in the top five.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

That's just rubbing it in. :-)

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Yeah either he's just being courtesy or might have a genuine interest. Greece could have one foot in the finals with a win Tuesday and still have the playoff next March. Wages wise he's reportedly on 500k.

“It is a big plus for us to have this situation now and be able to beat the Republic of Ireland twice because, I tell you, the support in here. I would like to be in charge of the team here,” said Poyet, inviting the follow-up line of questioning.

“I would love that. I would absolutely love that. I think it is a terrific place to come and play football. I was even surprised coming from the hotel, watching the people. I pay attention a lot. How many people have got the tracksuit? The black one. How many people have the green.

“Listen, in Uruguay we are patriots, but I don’t think many people buy the national team tracksuit. I don’t remember, maybe I am wrong. The shirt? Yes. But I don’t think many people buy the tracksuit. They are there with the tracksuit, it is proper. It is proper.”

Could say he's angling for a better deal with Greece, but they'd be stupid not to offer him a better deal and he's picked the wrong team to try use as leverage cause we're cat atm. My only thinking that Ireland might interest him is because he'll be based England.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

You're letting the Pundit Arena guy get under your skin?

I haven't seen anyone bar mypost cheerleading for Kenny on here for a long time. That tells its own story.

Kenny has failed. He's actually gotten worse if anything. The players aren't great at all but we need someone brave to come in a try something different in terms of approach and selection. That back 4 on Friday was tragic. I think most people understand that. It doesn't mean anybody was wrong for hoping Kenny could do the job. There were reasonable reasons to think it might work even if it was always an appointment made due as much to financial constraints as anything.

We move on. Whether the FAI can actually find and afford someone who can deliver dramatic change......I'm not sure. I'd expect us to get better and not be as completely useless against the likes of Greece.

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That's obviously a very fair post.

Stephen Kenny is a very good man with many virtues and a laudable philosophy on how he thinks the game should be played. I was greatly impressed with how spoke about how he would like us to play prior to his getting the job. It's a tragedy really that it hasn't worked out for him and us, and I would never attack him on a personal leveI. And I of course absolutely accept that our problems as a footballing nation run much deeper than just the current national team managerial incumbent.

I think my frustration lies in the inexplicably easy ride he's been given in the press corp and a large section of the fanbase despite his numerous failures. This was never afforded to any previous manager, despite any successes they may have achieved.

Look at the poisonous abuse Mick McCarthy received at the end of his first term in the position, for example. This despite him being a former player and captain and one of only two managers to have qualified us for a World Cup.

Since Kenny's appointment we've turned , almost overnight, into a third rate team of no-hopers, and we have people like the Kenny's Kids guy telling us that this is acceptable and we don't deserve any better. I think this is wrong.

In McCarthy's second spell in charge we went into the final seconds of the final match in with a chance of automatic qualification, with, I would suggest, probably an inferior pool of players to what we have now.

Now we've gotten used to being out of contention for even a play-off position after two or three matches. Yet the current management seem to avoid ever being truly held to account. Just why is this?

I can see it now - the FAI hire Poyet (who I think was half-trolling, by the way) as an assistant to Keith Andrews but only until half way through the WC qualification group, when both are replaced by Brian Kerr.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Now we've gotten used to being out of contention for even a play-off position after two or three matches. Yet the current management seem to avoid ever being truly held to account. Just why is this?

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Do you think it ties in with the groundswell & almost feverish atmosphere towards the end of MickMack II which followed MONball which itself followed Trap that the footballing supporters to a very large majority had had enough of watching the ball hacked away all winter each qualifying campaign in the hope of poxing a 1.0 in the spring to pretend everything was ok when it wasn't ? I think how disgruntled the nation was with that is a factor in how SK is evaluated.

I'm not saying that is right and it absolutely needs to stop, it needed to stop in June at the very latest with the Greece result, but it's all I can think of.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Do you think it ties in with the groundswell & almost feverish atmosphere towards the end of MickMack II which followed MONball which itself followed Trap that the footballing supporters to a very large majority had had enough of watching the ball hacked away all winter each qualifying campaign in the hope of poxing a 1.0 in the spring to pretend everything was ok when it wasn't ? I think how disgruntled the nation was with that is a factor in how SK is evaluated.

I'm not saying that is right and it absolutely needs to stop, it needed to stop in June at the very latest with the Greece result, but it's all I can think of.

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I think that's probably true. Our approach to playing the game needed to change and modernise. There was a lot of disquiet and frustration at our style of play under Trap and O'Neill despite some of the very good results we were able to achieve.

People often talk about a pragmatic approach to the game when they, I think correctly, advocate substance over style. But my mind often goes back to a match we played Georgia in a warm Tbilisi at the end of a long, hard English season, and after going ahead we simply sat back and whenever we gained possession we simply kicked long, hopeful balls as far down the park as possible, ceding possession over and over again as the Georgians came at us in waves . It was mindless and futile and there was nothing at all 'pragmatic' about that approach. We needed to get our foot on the ball, retain possession and take the sting out of the game

So, we needed change. But Kenny has shown himself to be hopelessly inadequate, unfortunately, in bringing about that change.

Therefore I agree that a lot of the support Kenny has enjoyed, despite unfavourable results, is due to previous dissatisfaction at the way we played and and a desire to embrace a new, more progressive footballing ideology.

I think this has led to a section of the support and media to support the Kenny programme leven when it appeared to be failing, giving him far more leeway than was afforded previous managerial regimes. This, in turn, has lsomehow led to some of the delusional, cult-like devotion evinced in the Pundit Arena article posted by Tets.

http://hellasfooty.blogspot.com/2022...ll-it.html?m=1

I don't know if thos is accurate but seems to say poyet is on 500,000 so likely in our price range

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Originally Posted by texidub

I can see it now - the FAI hire Poyet (who I think was half-trolling, by the way) as an assistant to Keith Andrews but only until half way through the WC qualification group, when both are replaced by Brian Kerr.

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Maybe he thinks we still hand out seven figure contracts.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

I think this has led to a section of the support and media to support the Kenny programme leven when it appeared to be failing, giving him far more leeway than was afforded previous managerial regimes. This, in turn, has lsomehow led to some of the delusional, cult-like devotion evinced in the Pundit Arena article posted by Tets.

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I think also, there is / was a perception that an element of the support had become the tail wagging the dog right up to the appointment of the MNT manger selection, fairly or unfairly. Trap never worked again after us. MON & Mick did but not for long anywhere. Your time comes & your time passes & their collective best before date happened in & around their time as Ireland manager. They are seen as pandering to that element of the support base, who fairly or unfairly are viewed as alcohol fuelled sex tourists who's first love is the EPL anyway. Late to their seat, early to the bar at HT, reappear sometime well into the second half. Etc.

So when names are mentioned today, there are people on various pages, not so much here, to whom Bruce / Allardyce & even Tony Pulis are consideration worthy. Even though all three are in that best before bracket career wise just as the pre SK era ones were, which we resolved to move away from.

This also divides roughly along LOI and EPL lines among the Irish support spectrum so you kind of have a perfect storm where the middle ground voice gets out shouted.

This I think is why, people would rather dig in than give an inch to those who would appoint what they see as a dinosaur. Had these type appointments been working, we wouldn't have been taking a Hail Mary of a punt as massive as Stephen Kenny always was - now would we ?

In my opinion it's much less about Stephen Kenny than its made out to be, it just got fought during his tenure is all & his contribution came up well short.

What we don't know is where the national associations head is at in all this, and this makes the next appointment one of the most intriguing in years, probably in all my time watching.

There's my two "Kennyite" cents :eek:

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

That's obviously a very fair post.

Stephen Kenny is a very good man with many virtues and a laudable philosophy on how he thinks the game should be played. I was greatly impressed with how spoke about how he would like us to play prior to his getting the job. It's a tragedy really that it hasn't worked out for him and us, and I would never attack him on a personal leveI. And I of course absolutely accept that our problems as a footballing nation run much deeper than just the current national team managerial incumbent.

I think my frustration lies in the inexplicably easy ride he's been given in the press corp and a large section of the fanbase despite his numerous failures. This was never afforded to any previous manager, despite any successes they may have achieved.

Look at the poisonous abuse Mick McCarthy received at the end of his first term in the position, for example. This despite him being a former player and captain and one of only two managers to have qualified us for a World Cup.

Since Kenny's appointment we've turned , almost overnight, into a third rate team of no-hopers, and we have people like the Kenny's Kids guy telling us that this is acceptable and we don't deserve any better. I think this is wrong.

In McCarthy's second spell in charge we went into the final seconds of the final match in with a chance of automatic qualification, with, I would suggest, probably an inferior pool of players to what we have now.

Now we've gotten used to being out of contention for even a play-off position after two or three matches. Yet the current management seem to avoid ever being truly held to account. Just why is this?

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I think it's a combination of a few things. Some reasonable, some stupid.

We paid those other managers a lot of money. Mick was probably my favourite of them but he comes with baggage so knives were always going to be out if things turned.

Kenny came in at a time when a lot of people knew we had a big transition coming. It was exciting, it was an interesting story. It promised something new to a nation that had gotten bored with our approach. People know we are broke and coaches aren't being paid and in steps a man who promises to help at least tie the seniors and 21s together and get us all marching to the same beat. It felt like a small step away from Delaney era FAI bull**** even if it was Delaney who put it in place! Of course it was all too optimistic on all fronts. And there's LoI leaning journos who wanted him to do well and probably gave him too much leeway or at least highlighted the issues he faced more than the issues he created himself! Kenny's Kids etc must be actually kids themselves? Let them at it.

That said there were still plenty of attacks on Kenny. I don't think it's been a completely easy ride at all to be honest. Plenty of pundits went after him before we even played a game and that has continued. Kerr, Mcateer, Dunne etc all wrote him off early. Kerr has consistently been negative on him. Hamann hasn't pulled any punches.

Ultimately most of them aren't worth listening to either way! He's in the job because the FAI are broke, not because Dan McDonnell wants him there.

Gus Poyet is really sticking the knife in isn't he? Savage stuff.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Bert Kassies has the UEFA coefficients going back to the start of European football. I'm not sure if he created them back that far or if they were in operation then (on the same basis as now)

Anyway, in 1974, the English league was comfortably the top-ranked in Europe

https://kassiesa.net/uefa/data/method1/crank1974.html

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Yep, and subsequent list of European Cup winners:
1977 Liverpool
1978 Liverpool
1979 N.Forest
1980 N.Forest
1981 Liverpool
1982 A.Villa
(Also Leeds beaten finalists in 1974 and Liverpool winners again in 1984, this being an era which each country only had one automatic entry)
While the English record around the period in ECWC and Uefa Cups wasn't too shabby, either.

When looking back at that era, some people point simplistically to the physical nature of English sides at that time, which may well have been a factor, but can never wholly explain their dominance. While they usually fail to appreciate just how crap much of the football played on the Continent must have been back then, since we had almost zero access to it. I mean, Aberdeen beating Real Madrid in a European final? Or Rangers winning, and Dundee United getting to the Final of, the ECWC?

Interesting points there - I suppose summed up as Kenny representing something we all wanted, so got a bit more leeway in some quarters? Makes sense in fairness

I suppose another question then is is it a surprise how disappointing Kenny's reign has been?

You can say he's LoI standard and you wouldn't have an LoI player in the squad - but that's not necessarily true. Jack Byrne is a top LoI player and was legitimately in the squad (until injury anyway; he seems to have never recovered top form since that and covid), and Kenny was a top LoI manager, so he shouldn't be this far off the pace.

He had success in Europe with Dundalk, so he must be able to motivate, coach, etc. The performances in Europe - BATE, Alkmaar, Hapoel, Zenit, Legia, etc - were a step above just winning the LoI.

There's always been a suggestion that our best spell coincided with Anthony Barry as coach - he's now at Bayern and Portugal, so he's clearly a quality coach. But if that's the case, is it Keith Andrews/John O'Shea who's the bigger problem?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Interesting points there - I suppose summed up as Kenny representing something we all wanted, so got a bit more leeway in some quarters? Makes sense in fairness

I suppose another question then is is it a surprise how disappointing Kenny's reign has been?

You can say he's LoI standard and you wouldn't have an LoI player in the squad - but that's not necessarily true. Jack Byrne is a top LoI player and was legitimately in the squad (until injury anyway; he seems to have never recovered top form since that and covid), and Kenny was a top LoI manager, so he shouldn't be this far off the pace.

He had success in Europe with Dundalk, so he must be able to motivate, coach, etc. The performances in Europe - BATE, Alkmaar, Hapoel, Zenit, Legia, etc - were a step above just winning the LoI.

There's always been a suggestion that our best spell coincided with Anthony Barry as coach - he's now at Bayern and Portugal, so he's clearly a quality coach. But if that's the case, is it Keith Andrews/John O'Shea who's the bigger problem?

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Yeah that's where I'm at as well. I think I've said it before on here but I believe Kenny is a very good manager (by LoI standards) in the right conditions but tends to crumble in the wrong conditions. He was so bad with Rovers where the players bullied him but so good with Dundalk where the players really bought in. He also got lucky with a few players having higher ceilings than the LoI all kicking on under him. Or he signed well.

I'm surprised he was so bad and very disappointed that he wasn't as brave as I'd hoped. The squad hasn't changed enough for me. I'm not sure we could have afforded a manager that would have made up for the squad deficiencies that hit around the time Kenny took charge but at the same time I thought we'd be in better shape at this point. Would McCarthy have gotten a better tune out of the bunch? Probably, but at what financial cost?

Having Ferguson should have improved us and if anything we've gotten worse since he got capped. Kenny has looked completely frozen to me for a few years. The referendum on his job after almost every game probably took it's toll and I'm not sure he has the mental strength to deal with that kind of pressure. If you can't even handle the pressure at Rovers then the national job is going to be too big.

Giles was a very decent manager for us. Our playing pool was very mixed when he was the manager. Obviously he was a world class player, Heighway was arguably world class, Brady would become world class and we had some good 1st division players. He would have been brilliant to have in the early 80s when we had arguably our best ever group of players. Actually incredible talent in that era. Numerous Liverpool players like Beglin, Whelan and Lawrenson, Sheedy, Brady, McGrath, Stapleton, O’Leary, Packie, Moran. I lived in England at the time and the English couldn’t get over why we weren’t a top team. In fairness, it was a horribly hard era to qualify for tournaments and we were robbed all over the shop.

Kenny is a nice man and he talks a good game. I will say the lack of talent coming through for so many years is a major part of the problem and that isn’t on him. The 26-32 year olds should be the senior pros out there and we don’t have one decent one. That is the end of it for me. I hated the booing at the end of the game the other night, but this guy is so crazily out of his depth it is depressing. Across Europe, poorer teams on paper are very competitive and some of these teams will qualify. The one time we looked decent, we had a top level coach in Barry. He goes and it seems to fall apart. Just highlights how technically and tactically inept Kenny is and how little the back room staff must contribute. His lack of contacts in the game go against him in this regard. A guy like Poyet will have a good knowledge of quality coaches, as would Carlsey.

As I said previously, we have an interesting group of players for a prospective manager. Can’t say I know much about Poyet’s ability as a manager only that he out foxed Kenny which isn’t too hard, but he has played at a very high level and at the very least has a bit of nous I’d imagine.

Mick was treated so badly by the FAI, the media and a fair chunk of the fan base. He deserved so much more. A great captain (not his fault that Jack banished O’Leary) and a very decent manager for us.

I’ll say it again that we have really talented lads coming through. All is isn’t lost, but whatever about the next World Cup, we need to ensure that we are at Euro 28.

Barry came in through Kenny's connections to be fair.

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Originally Posted by Kenny

I'm not considering resigning," said Kenny, speaking at the pre-match press conference. "My contact is to the end of the campaign and I will finish it.

"We want to finish the campaign strongly and we are very determined to do that. After that it’s completely out of my control. I have no control over the rest."

The FAI confirmed recently that Kenny would be in charge until those games are completed and they will then undertake a review of the entire qualifying campaign.

The manager added that he did not need clarification regarding his contract, and while the FAI review will take place ahead of the play-offs, Kenny is convinced that his contract would run to March if Ireland were to sneak into one of the available places.

"It's until the end of the campaign," said Kenny when asked does his current contract include the play-offs. "So that's play-offs, or the European Championships, so it's the end of the campaign."

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https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023...-off-possibil/

Could get messy yet.

Some pair on him.

Wonder what MickMack would reckon to that.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

There's always been a suggestion that our best spell coincided with Anthony Barry as coach - he's now at Bayern and Portugal, so he's clearly a quality coach. But if that's the case, is it Keith Andrews/John O'Shea who's the bigger problem?

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I think it is pretty evident the coaching impact Barry and (to a lesser extent Eustace) had on the team. We changed the defensive structure and started playing with 3 CBs with Barry’s appointment. Scoring goals became less of an issue with Barry, there was more flow from back to front, and more invention in our set plays. The Scotland home game was effectively a derby, so more aggression is a given, but think you can see Eustace’s influence in crowding out Scotland’s key players in the central areas and stopping them from playing. I thought we were also very good away to Ukraine in our control of the game (defensive lapse aside).

Both Andrews and O’Shea are no doubt dedicated and ambitious in what they want to achieve. But that doesn't necessarily make them good at their profession. I’m just not seeing how they are improving the team. O’Shea was appointed at the start of the year, presumably with more responsible for defensive structure. Is he getting that right based on the results and goals we have conceded this year? His appointment was a bit strange as well imo. Eustace left mid-year with Kenny stating in the media a new appointment was imminent on multiple occasions. O’Shea, effectively an internal promotion, got the position after a six month wait. Why the delay if Kenny wasn’t angling to get somebody else in?

The buck stops with Kenny though.