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I did notice on the stream the pitch looked 'greener' and smoother actually, maybe parts of the ground tidier too around the ground, a lick of paint can do wonders, especially the town side of the stand, seems to need painted every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Yet again Neil ORiordan had a great piece in the Sun today about the World Cup 2030 bidding war fiasco.
If im not mistaken, Horse racing get around €64 million in funding from the Government each year. This is mostly from taxes on betting, which is earmarked nearly exclusively for Animal racing. Two decades ago, the majority of betting was placed on horses and dogs, however, more recently higher and higher number of bets are placed on Football. This isnt reflected on where the funding from taxes on betting go to.
I bring it up because there is increasing debate over the morality of animal racing in the country (think greyhounds on primetime/ the current situation of the Gordon Elliot photo). There is more and more backlash against it. I think this is realistically the most likely source of revenue for investments in facilities for domestic football.
Of course there is strong lobbying from Horseracing and Betting companies, so it would need a hell of a lot of lobbying from football insitutions. A possibilty is doubling the betting tax from 1 percent to 2 percent, which would give an extra revenue of 50million. Even if football didnt get all that, an extra 10 million a year in facilities would do a wonder job, up and down the league. Emmet Malone did a piece on it below.
Just to qualify, I dont bet on football or animal racing. Im fairly blasie on it all. Just see it as an opportunity.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...cake-1.3803786
This is a really interesting topic imo and I think its the only genuine possibility of getting a programme of ground developments going and properly funded. As mentioned previously the money invested in racing over 20 years is eyewatering. I dont think the betting companies would care where betting taxes go, they might have an issue with an increase in the tax but at its meagre level I doubt doubling (or up to say 5%?) would negatively effect business and could actually increase a market if more people were attending proper facilities at sporting events.
There is controversy with the whole sponsorship in sport by betting companies and if it does have a correlated negative impact on society, its surprising that taxation is so low. It's not the same as sponsorship of tobacco related companies in the past and the current high rates of taxes to discourage use, alcohol companies and sports sponsorship is on the clock I think too. But gambling doesnt seem to be on the radar of government and probably should be and at the very minimum should be an industry that is used to generate funding - certainly sports like football would have a more positive impact on wider sections of society than horse racing bar the estimated 35k jobs created by that industry. There is much greater growth potential/job creation too in other sports with animal racing very well developed - further justification for reform of this particular taxation and funding. Proportionate to the respective sports is the way to go if a LoI fan as the current breakdown of betting trends would mean a significant share of the spoils, GAA would be in a hoop over that though with significantly less gambling on GAA but they generate a high level of their own revenue as it is and there are many worthy sports like athletics that badly need investment. Accessibility to participate in sport for those with disabilities needs huge work including basic infrastructure at facilities and should be pushed as a priority too.
Its probably the most realistic prospect of getting money in to the game and we should badgering politicians about it especially as Kiki has suggested that horse racing is under the spotlight. We are easily decades behind other EU countries (even proportionately) on sporting infrastructure with the exception of GAA (not a criticism), below provinical level Rugby is severly lacking and we know where the issues are in LoI. While a couple of Olympic standard swimming facilities have opened in more recent years its still embarrassing, not a single indoor velodrome in a country where cycling has some pedigree, one Ice Skating rink (and one at DkIT that needs funding to reopen). The list is endless really - I hope there is an EU type directive on the number of amentities that encourage physical activity per head of population!
I also thing that any potential future funding for LoI should be allocated to to clubs that require the greatest amount of work to bring their ground up to expected standards, away fans having to stand in the rain is just not on!!
Have to agree with you on this before we redeveloped our ground 20 yrs ago we had shelter the length of the pitch where Section O is based but when the stand was built the bus shelter was gone! I think there should be another stand over I stand imo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Is your whole ground in use? I thought there was a safety issue on one side?
You only really become a League of Ireland club when part of your stadium gets restricted on safety grounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucket
I think they may have sorted that out recently. But it's not likely to be needed any time soon, Covid or no Covid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucket
I think there is a big difference between Irish horse racing in Ireland and club football in Ireland.
The former is considered amongst the finest in the world and always has been, it is a major revenue source for betting companies workdwide. The latter obviously exists in a different stratosphere.
Invest €1bn in an industry and ye'd hope that it would be pretty decent. True though, it isnt directly comparable but should horse racing continue to be subsidised by taxation its not generating, if at all. At minimum its a discussion that's needed. The majority of betting on football will be on the EPL but obviously they shouldnt benefit but the sport in this country could. It would be interesting, in an alternative history type way, to see how the FAI would have gotten on with a similar level of funding!?!
I reckon Robbie Keane would’ve been given a 15 year contract on €100k a week and John Delaney's 50th birthday party would’ve taken place on the moon with travel subsidised for guests of courseQuote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
For as wild as any 'predictions' could be I reckon the FAI would still have managed to have us shaking our heads in disbelief! Mypost (wherever he is these days) might even have had his direct route to games in his spaceship and Finn Harps would be in Stranrolar on schedule.
Of course you are right. But changing the betting tax from 1 percent to 2 percent, would create a lot more revenue so that both animal racing can keep the same funding, and other sports can get much needed investment. Besides, Greyhound racing is heavily subsides by the Government and get 19.2 million euro. Nobody really cares too much about the dogs as opposed to the horses. That much money going into facilities would be huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWA
Money doesnt need to go into the clubs or the FAI themseleves but can be given to councils earmarked to help build and maintain multi-use stadiums (similar to Tallaght, which has been a massive success). There has been a massive lack of investment in stadiums in this country. Louth currently needs three (2 loi and 1 GAA). If football in this country could mobalise around some policy, it would have a much greater chance to fix this. (or maybe this is just my lockdown mind going crazy....)
I do think the PCA and First Division clubs could have a part to play in it. Rather than just the FAI lobbying for a bigger slice of the betting levvies, the clubs, the various regional organisations, youth groups, schoolboys clubs, etc, should all be coming together and trying to force the hand of the government.
Facilities in the country could do with an overhaul from top to bottom. If there's an estimate of about 30-40% of betting in Ireland done on football, then 30-40% of the betting levy should go to football. Even a ringfenced €15m a year to improve facilities in Ireland would go a long way to helping the game along.
Tallaght has been a success, but I think we have to caution against assuming it can be done everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
A core part of the rationale and business case behind the council developing Tallaght Stadium has nothing to do with Shamrock Rovers. It's to enable it to be a venue for all sorts of things, including football involving other teams. That makes sense when you're building it in a capital city that contains 40% of the population of the entire state. But not in small areas like Wexford or Ballybofey, for example. So unless a compelling case can be made for multi-use stadia that more than pay for themselves on a going basis and just happen to include an LOI club as an anchor tenant within that, then councils shouldn't touch the idea with a barge pole.
I dont think people do really as a one size fits all arrangement could lead to problems, waste of resources, white elephant projects and the like. But conversely, and I know not everyone would be in agreement, but Dundalk having a 12k capacity ground (up to 22k) for one sport and another of 10k a few miles apart doesnt make a whole lot of sense either. If some people could discard old enmities and some inventive design a facility could be maxmised. They way things could end up is with 2 budget projects that neither will sell-out except occasionally in a calender year. Pooled resources with municipal involvement could have seen an entire area rejuvenated in a larger overall development plan. The area that the new county ground is could have been a community hub and where its needed. The DFC fan in me though would prefer that some wealthy investors take over the club and redevelop Oriel and be a facility that generates money for DFC and no strings attached - 'realist' v wishlist stuff lol. Throw Drogheda in to the mix in terms of municipal involvement and it gets more complex again. Though the Lourdes Stadium is council owned already...Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
You think the FAI read foot.ie ? How to get this wonder plan out there ....Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
We should identify as many potential situations like that as possible and put LoI clubs in as anchor tenants. It's a sustainable setup, which is more than can be said for most of us at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Is it a sustainable set up though ? Shamrock Rovers are only one part of the business rationale for Tallaght Stadium. What other sporting fixtures, entertainment events, conferences etc would be attracted to a stadium in Ballybofey, for example, to make a substantial council investment there pay for itself every year ? Because that's what's driven the expansion of Tallaght - if not from day one, then at least beyond it consisting solely of a single stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Whatever about now, i wouldnt be surprised if Irish football fora were trawled through by JD. Maybe they still do but it would be to head off new ideas rather than looking for some. How to get plan/idea/change - through the clubs, then FAI lobbies and fans (including GAA) get at their politicians - GAA are good at this and will hunt down any sniff of funding from which we shout out for a share when the heavy lifting is done!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa
There are so many flaws in this trail of thought that I struggle for where to begin. This is dreamland stuff, and I mean Donald Trump stumping up 100 mil a year and us having the Trump League of Ireland dreamland kinda stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Horse and Greyhound racing literally exist for gambling. That is why they will get some of the dividends from it. They would not exist at least in anything resembling their current form if it wasn’t for betting and likewise most betting firms we know of today would not exist if if wasn’t for racing.
Association football and bookmaking never had and never will have this type of shared existence, a bond build on a reliance of each other to survive.
Now I am not going to go much into the %s of betting done in Ireland by sport/event etc but needless to say the figures for betting on the Irish Domestic game are miniscule. There will be one man in China using obscure Macau based betting firms to bet more on one Irish game than this entire island would bet on a whole Friday evenings League of Ireland programme. We would have as much chance getting funding from Macau.
Finally, most betting firms (with the exception of a few, Powers/Hills/365) are itching to get further away from all forms of sports betting and drag the whole thing toward casino and games betting (or FOBT’s if in store)
This idea of getting money from betting for the League of Ireland is really pie in the sky stuff.
What part of "identify as many potential situations like that as possible" screams Ballybofey to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Because Ballybofey would be the norm in this, not the exception.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
How many places would genuinely be able to justify a council-run Tallaght-esque facility without it becoming a white elephant ? I'm really not sure even somewhere like Cork could. There are so many other places there to attract large events, conferences etc as it is. And on the very rare occasion that Real Madrid did want to fulfil a money-raising game in Cork, I'm sure the GAA could be persuaded to open their facilities again now that the hoodoo was broken by the Lia Miller saga. And even if they couldn't - you can't build a new publicly-owned multi-purpose venue on the hope that a Real Madrid might want to use it once a generation.
We can disagree about Cork if you like, but let's look at the rest of the league. Tallaght Stadium means that it's unlikely anywhere else in Greater Dublin south of the river could justify a similar facility. So that rules out UCD, Cabinteely, Pats and Bray. The redeveloped Dalymount will be the equivalent for north Dublin, covering Bohs and Shels. Beyond that there could be a weak argument made about places like Drogheda, Dundalk or Waterford, but I just don't think they have the populations to attract enough usage to make it viable. And absolutely zero chance for the likes of Longford, Harps, Sligo, Wexford, Cobh and Athlone. They just don't have the populations.
The one possible exception could be Galway. But again - it's a small city with other options also competing for the limited amount of events they could attract.
So where else realistically could we see a Tallaght-type situation where a council views a stadium with an LOI anchor tenant as a useful asset for it to attract lots of other events to the area without it being a drain on its own resources ? Even a smaller version of Tallaght still wouldn't help much IMO, as you'd still have a base level of running costs. I'm not convinced that a 25% smaller venue would knock 25% off of the annual operating costs, for example. And that would affect its commercial viability for other events too.
I've attended an academic conference in Páirc Uí Chaoimh; very nice facility. I bet it cost a few quid to rent, too. Not everything has to be about Real Madrid.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
You can argue about competition, but the fact is that the GAA have that facility and an LoI club does not. We're playing catch-up because the FAI is ****e at infrastructural investment and attracting government money.
Im sorry but that's such BS. Loads of infrastructure is built in the country that isint 'sustainable' … roads and bridges for example. Or look at Iarnrod Eireann and Bus Eireann, they loose money but they are infrastructure that is required for the community and for a region to grow and to promote itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Said it before, look at the North West or even draw a line from Dublin to Galway - there is no motorways or any decent rail system above that line. Its forgotten country, always has been.
We pay our taxes too and have a right to good infrastrucre the same as everybody else. And look, nobody is looking for the Tallaght stadium in Ballybofey or the Luas in Sligo just something fit for purpose. How is a county or area supposed to grow their economy or society when they infrastructure is from the 1980s.
There was but its sorted out now Bucket as we have started putting in seats in behind the goal again which was originally closed and poured in concrete where there was a health hazard before. The last few games of last season that work was complete!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucket
EatYerGreens I think people are suggesting raising the tax from 1% to 2%. So racing and dogs keep receiving the same amount with the rest used for infrastructure for other sports
That may cover the capital costs of building a stadium. But that's not the thing that causes problems for local authorities. They can always borrow money for capital projects after all, but they can't for running costs (revenue projects). If a council-owned facility doesn't pay for itself then it has to be budgeted for year after year after year - in good times and in bad. And that leave sit open to political change, voter fatigue etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucket
Gambling taxes are unlikely to be used to cover the annual running costs of individual stadia either, as that just encourages white elephants and puts the future of such facilities at the mercy of policy and tax vagaries.
There's no point someone giving you a lovely big house if you can't afford the upkeep of it and there aren't enough people interested in renting a room off you there.
You're not understanding the difference between capital costs (the money needed upfront to create something - which can legally be borrowed against) and running costs (the money needed each and every year to keep it going - which can't legally be borrowed against). Motorways are very expensive to install, but have a relatively low revenue cost impact. The issue with Bus Eireann and Ianrod Eireann are the revenue costs every year, as their income receipts don't cover the cost of running their networks. Regardless - the state picks up the shortfall as public transport is deemed a public necessity and a social good. And rightly so. Good luck making a similar argument to government for a League of Ireland stadium in Wexford, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
Sorry, but I must of stopped following the conversation adequately. I'm just saying the tax should be doubled, dogs and horses continue to get their current grants, the rest goes to sports infrastructure. Whether or not cocos are involved is of no interest to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
No reason really why that money should go to a council to build something, for a LOI club to then lease, instead of going directly to a club to build themselves
Isnt the Brandywell council owned? is it a burden on the council? certainly redevelopment was publicly funded. I dont see too much being said in replicating Tallaght or scaled down versions but there is a role for councils to play in some circumstances. Tallaght was an intervention by SDCC on a failed project that was subsequently made to work for them. There are international models that could be considered too. I do think an opportunity was missed by LCC to create a self-sustaining facility with broad community benefits, shared capital and running costs etc. But with a bespoke design suitable to local needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
The Flan Siro looked well this evening on the excellent YouTube stream for the friendly against Utd. Looks like there's construction work going on behind the goal opposite the carpark end. The pitch was very bobbly thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
First of all, I don't see the relevance of LOI betting on whether football should get a cut of the gambling tax. Horse and dog racing get 100% of the tax from football bets as it is, and you could argue that horse racing is even further away from the Premier League than the League of Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWA
Second, betting firms aren't itching to get away from sports betting. It's their cash cow. They're looking to diversify so they don't lose customers when, for instance, sport isn't happening.
Looks like they're building a little house down there :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bucket
Anyone any idea what it's for? A club office or media facilities maybe?
There's no genuine comparison between the Brandywell and Tallaght Stadium in this regard. Tallaght was a bespoke stadium designed and built from scratch to house Rovers as an anchor tenant, and with the hope of attracting other events into the area as well (which it has had some success in doing). The Brandywell has been a stadium for much longer that Derry City has existed, and hosted all sorts of things in that time. It was a burden for the council up until it was partly refurbished recently, which is why half the stadium sat unused there for 5-10 years, and the only side that was opened had big wooden props all along the back of it to stop a boundary wall falling down. So it has been a burden to the council in the very recent past, who didn't have the funds or will to get it into a decent shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Now it's been partly refurbished Brandywell is entirely used for football and greyhound racing, and hosts a lot of junior/intermediate football in the city. It can't and won't be used in anything like the way Tallaght stadium is or will be for events. And that's not what the council in Derry intended it to be used for either. Plus Brandywell is less than a third of the size of where Tallaght will be after the 4th stand is built. Derry City also rent it for a very low sum that doesn't reflect anything like a commercial rent btw.
So the only valid comparison between the facilities is they're both council owned and contain a football team. Beyond that they were intended and designed for different levels of usage/ambition, and are very different sizes.
Hopefully a bar for away fans
So horses for courses!Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
The Council took over rersponsibility for the stadium around the foundation of the club in 1929 - it had previously been owned/run by the Honourable The Irish Society (a City of London Corporation who, amongst other things, had previously built the Guildhall).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Afaik the stadium was included in a large sale of assets to the Council by the Society, with the latter making a stipulation that it may only be used for recreational purposes (hence the football and greyhounds etc)
As regards the 2016/17 redevelopment, this was jointly funded by the Council and Stormont to the tune of around £10m. I don't know what the split was, but I suspect the majority was due to come from Stormont.
This is because in 2015,with the National Stadium rebuild at Windsor under way, Stormont announced a Sub-Regional Stadium programme to spend a further £36m on upgrading smaller football stadia in NI.
The biggest chunk of this, £10m, was to go to Glentoran, to develop a mid-sized stadium, with around the same to Derry City - basically money-sharing to reflect power-sharing, it being entirely coincidental that the two stadia are/were in the constituencies of Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness ;)
Anyhow, Stormont buggered around (technical term) in putting these plans into action, before its suspension put a complete halt to this and myriad other projects - it still hasn't been started, never mind completed, nearly six years later. :(
I suspect the Council may have stumped up the funding for the Brandywell, in anticipation of getting some or all reimbursed some day from Stormont, but that's only my guess - I'm entirely open to correction.
More here, though no mention of Derry, possibly because they've already gone ahead?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51194824
Anyhow, on a wider note, if Stormont ever did get its act together and spend this money on IL clubs etc, perhaps that might prompt/shame the Irish government into doing something similar for the LOI? (Speculation)
Only one phase of the Brandywell redevelopment has been completed, we were promised by Martin McGuinness and the Executive that funding to complete the work was guaranteed (see https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern...-west-38158441 )
That has went without further mention in recent years and I firmly suspect the Brandywell will now remain untouched for years, in all likelihood until it again falls into a state of disrepair.
The half stand we have should not be as such. That original intent (or so we were all told) was for that to be completed.
Are you suggesting the Irish government is capable of feeling shame?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen