Kazakhstan V Republic of Ireland - Friday, 7th September 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

It's funny, I read about our dearth of players and the lack of quality available to Trap. While our squad has dropped in terms of talent with the loss of Duff, Given and the forced exclusion of others, I truly don't think we have had so many top level (by which im referring to EPL first-team) players available to us since Charlton 86-94. We also have some very good Championship players. Our talent pool is arguably bigger than it has ever been. When I look at the players we don't pick, i feel we aren't making the best use of the players at our disposal. This coupled with the system and the way we are instructed to play doesn't make for pleasurable viewing and guarantees poor performances.

The loss of Duff and others plus the loss of form of some means that this will become more commonplace and I fear a torrid campaign with Trap at the helm. The biggest reason for that is not the (probably) borderline selection issues I mentioned above (though I do believe it does have a significant impact not having certain players there), it's probably not even the system, it's actually the publicly stated and constantly reinforced notion of Traps that we do not have players capable of showing, trapping and passing.

While we are not the technically most gifted talent pool in town, I think it does our talent pool a great disservice to a) believe that and b) communicate that publicly in interviews and privately in the selection of Paul Green ahead of Darron Gibson (easiest example). It was one of the first things Trap said in interviews and while some were captivated by his experience and therefore accepting these statements, i was shaking my head in disgust and disagreement. I knew then that he didnt truly appreciate the opportunity he had and that things would turn sour.

Why should our players have faith in a manager who fundamentally has no faith in them? And why should the Irish fans continue to buy this guff?

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Originally Posted by SkStu

It's funny, I read about our dearth of players and the lack of quality available to Trap. While our squad has dropped in terms of talent with the loss of Duff, Given and the forced exclusion of others, I truly don't think we have had so many top level (by which im referring to EPL first-team) players available to us since Charlton 86-94. We also have some very good Championship players. Our talent pool is arguably bigger than it has ever been. When I look at the players we don't pick, i feel we aren't making the best use of the players at our disposal. This coupled with the system and the way we are instructed to play doesn't make for pleasurable viewing and guarantees poor performances.

The loss of Duff and others plus the loss of form of some means that this will become more commonplace and I fear a torrid campaign with Trap at the helm. The biggest reason for that is not the (probably) borderline selection issues I mentioned above (though I do believe it does have a significant impact not having certain players there), it's probably not even the system, it's actually the publicly stated and constantly reinforced notion of Traps that we do not have players capable of showing, trapping and passing.

While we are not the technically most gifted talent pool in town, I think it does our talent pool a great disservice to a) believe that and b) communicate that publicly in interviews and privately in the selection of Paul Green ahead of Darron Gibson (easiest example). It was one of the first things Trap said in interviews and while some were captivated by his experience and therefore accepting these statements, i was shaking my head in disgust and disagreement. I knew then that he didnt truly appreciate the opportunity he had and that things would turn sour.

Why should our players have faith in a manager who fundamentally has no faith in them? And why should the Irish fans continue to buy this guff?

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Good post.

The match today really upset me and I'm veering away from being a Trap supporter. At the same time, things could be a lot worse. with another manager.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I truly don't think we have had so many top level (by which im referring to EPL first-team) players available to us since Charlton 86-94.

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Don't know if that stat's true or not, but all our Premiership players are mundane ones. The days of Harte, Kelly (CL semi-finalists), Roy Keane, Denis Irwin (CL winners) or Damien Duff (Premiership winner) are long gone. That's half a team right there of quality far, far in excess of what we have at the moment. I don't think it's a valid comparison saying that we've more top-flight players now than in 94; we're considerably weaker than at any time in the last 25 years, I think.

On a side note, does anyone else think Keiren Westwood looks like Andy Townsend? Bit disconcerting to see the ball going towards goal and having a panic moment - "What the *@!* is Townsend doing in nets?!"

Westwood & Townsend: yes.

We've a pool of players almost entirely trained and developed in a kick and rush league when the rest of the continent's academies have developed beyond that level being acceptable. Our players individual talent, even removing the coach and tactics for a moment were inferior to the kazakh's last night, thats how bad its gotten. They have players who are comfortable in possession, we have players who were trained from a young age to get rid of the ball as soon as they receive it. It's a problem that runs deeper than just Trap.

3 points.
We got the maximum amount of points on offer.
On a plastic pitch.
In flippin' Kazahkstan.
Who gives a monkey's how we did it.
On to the next.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

Similar in a way to Liverpools problem fitting Andy Carroll in. There is more to him than just a big target man, but it's hard for him to show that if the rest of the team insist on lumping the ball up the field towards him at every opportunity.

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Exactly. It was so predictible that my mate's 6 year old son turned to us and asked "why do Ireland keep kicking it up to Walters and not give it the wingers?" I mean if a young fella just getting in to football can see that, lads playing for top European clubs won't have much difficulty, let alone lads playing in Kazakhstan. Ridiculous stuff.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

We've a pool of players almost entirely trained and developed in a kick and rush league when the rest of the continent's academies have developed beyond that level being acceptable. Our players individual talent, even removing the coach and tactics for a moment were inferior to the kazakh's last night, thats how bad its gotten. They have players who are comfortable in possession, we have players who were trained from a young age to get rid of the ball as soon as they receive it. It's a problem that runs deeper than just Trap.

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Sadly this is so true. British and Irish players are so technically inferior on the whole to the continent. England can get by because they have such a big pool of talent to pick from that they will always produce top players. However, they pale so badly compared to the Germans and Spanish etc.
To be fair, the Welsh have been producing some lovely players like Bale, Ramsey and Allen over the last few years. Maybe it's just a very good batch coming through like we've had in the past, or they have good coaches there. Whatever they're doing, they are definitely getting some top young talents through that I'm fairly envious of.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

Sadly this is so true. British and Irish players are so technically inferior on the whole to the continent. England can get by because they have such a big pool of talent to pick from that they will always produce top players. However, they pale so badly compared to the Germans and Spanish etc.
To be fair, the Welsh have been producing some lovely players like Bale, Ramsey and Allen over the last few years. Maybe it's just a very good batch coming through like we've had in the past, or they have good coaches there. Whatever they're doing, they are definitely getting some top young talents through that I'm fairly envious of.

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Wales are a bottom seed for this campaign lets not forget, below even the Faroes. Bale is a fairly straightforward hit and run type winger, he stands out not because he's exceptionally technical but he's very good at playing that simple game. Ramsey doesn't look like he'll amount to much and appears to be struggling at the moment. Allen though is a very good player and far more technically gifted that the typical player in that league, the Swansea development of players would appear to be different from the norm. Arsenal probably are as well but unfortunately we don't have players at either.

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Originally Posted by Zizou

3 points.
We got the maximum amount of points on offer.
On a plastic pitch.
In flippin' Kazahkstan.
Who gives a monkey's how we did it.
On to the next.

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4G Astro' surely, better than some grass pitches.
Why does the venue matter?

Did you see the game? Ireland were awful. And very very lucky.

And it's 'monkeys'

How long have Ireland known we were going to be playing on Astroturf?

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Originally Posted by Zizou

3 points.
We got the maximum amount of points on offer.
On a plastic pitch.
In flippin' Kazahkstan.
Who gives a monkey's how we did it.
On to the next.

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Anyone who is sane.

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

How long have Ireland known we were going to be playing on Astroturf?

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They coulda trained in Oriel...

I hope we end up looking back on the result in the same manner we looked at the first game away to Armenia in the last campaign. Kaz looked decent but then again we made them look decent. They may well cause the likes of Faroes, Austria and maybe Sweden some trouble away.

I was very much in the pro Trap camp but on my way out of there now. Its not just the personnel and crazy selections ie playing strikers on the wing. BUt its not just personell changes that are required. We had a lad who has proven in the EPL that he is well able to pass the ball and impose himself in midfield. However, McCarthy was anonymous as the likes of Whelan and Andrews have been previously. Its a tactical change that is needed. The very very rare time we worked the ball, we created some opportunities. Cox and Walters combined well on the left in the first half and a good solid pass from Whelan to set Doyle on his run which led to the penalty.

We need to focus on changes in our tactics and how we work the ball up the field more so than calling for X, Y and Z to be in the team. Having the likes of McCarthy in the XI is a step in the right direction but personell changes alone are insufficient without a change in tactic.

Also very worrying to concede the goal like we did. Very very poor defending which is sloppy and shows signs of poor preparation. Dunne is vital in that regard.

On a plus side, Westwood played very well and looked very assured.

Whatever about at home to Germany, in reality a draw out of that game would be a bonus. Its the match away to Faroes that I fear now.

There's always some truth in the saying that the points are all that matter. I'm delighted we have the win. Anything else means we'd likely have to make up ground against Sweden and Austria whereas with every win there's margin for error down the line.

But, going into this game we wanted evidence that the team could show signs of eradicating obvious weaknesses. If anything, these weaknesses have got worse. The weaknesses include off the field stuff too. The manager's lack of faith in our ability to play football, his lack of faith in wingers playing on the wing, his insistence on playing square pegs in round holes. That's why there's so much despair. We've been looking for signs that we can turn a corner. There are no signs.

On another point, may I first state my opinion that I think both Gibson and McClean are out of order with their attitude. However, I think the media are actually being relatively restrained in their attacks on Trap's man management issues despite what semed to be a concerted dig this week. A lot of the UK media, many of whom were in Sopot with access to the team, are hinting that this is a very unhappy dressing room (today's Times for example). I think they know more than they're letting on. One UK reporter we all know from TV told a mate of mine out there that there were tensions in the camp.

I agree with Elroy except I think the Kazakhs deserve credit for the goal. It's hard to see how an Irish defender could have got to the ball first. OK, more pressure on the man maybe, but almost every headed goal conceded can be described as bad defending if you're looking for fault.

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Originally Posted by MeathDrog

Anyone who is sane.

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More like anyone who is sad and pathetic enough to pick the bones out of a win, like anyone on here actually knows better than Trap. The lot of you make me laugh. Keyboard experts.. 3 points ladies. 3 points.

It's true that the number of professional players we have in England has never been higher but they're a very very modest bunch. I wouldn't make much fuss about not have Irish players in the top 4 clubs given how many top class foreign players now play in the EPL, it's actually amazing how many players we have to choose from.

However the damning fact is that players from Armenia and Kazakhstan are better technically.

Last night was the first time I almost felt disappointed that Ireland won a game!

Until Doyle came on there wasn't a single Irish player who played with any conviction or heart.

We had this situation before when Giles resigned after the first World cup qualifier for the 1982 World Cup. Ireland had just beaten Cyprus ( a very poor team at that time) 3-2 away. Giles to his credit resigned after the game. A team with good players had slowly but surely deteriorated under Giles straight jacket management. The tactics differed from Trapatonni's in that everything had to go through Giles who was player manager. It slowed the team down and began to strangle players like Brady. Hand took over and although not a very good manager he allowed the team to play with more freedom. Immediately we improved and went on to beat Holland 2-1 and draw with Belgium 1-1 before eventually losing out on goal difference to Belgium for second spot. We also beat France 3-2 in that group. With virtually the same players we became a transformed team due to a new direction/outlook from a new manager.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

We've a pool of players almost entirely trained and developed in a kick and rush league when the rest of the continent's academies have developed beyond that level being acceptable. Our players individual talent, even removing the coach and tactics for a moment were inferior to the kazakh's last night, thats how bad its gotten. They have players who are comfortable in possession, we have players who were trained from a young age to get rid of the ball as soon as they receive it. It's a problem that runs deeper than just Trap.

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One hundred per cent spot on post.

You nailed it. The Kazak players were technically better than ours, and you're right, it has gotten that bad.

And it's not Trap's fault either - although he exacerbates the situation by allowing his players to play like mindless cavemen. Two things to remember - that level of performance would never be accepted by the clubs the Irish players play for and furthermore, Trap promised that he would start afresh after the Euros, did he not?

My understanding was that we were going to get the ball on the deck and pass it - did anyone else get that impression?

And one other thing, and this is key! We all remember the hue and cry by the British football public following the Euros. There was talk of a change in the way the game was going to be coached in England. But nothing has happened since. At least it hasn't been reported. And so it's back to the good old EPL and our fantasy football and those who pretended to care about the lack of technical ability of the footballers in thes islands, care no longer.

We'll be singing the same old song in 50 years time, because no one does anything about it.

The Kazakh players were not technically better than ours. We have better technical players who could pass them off the park easily if they had been instilled with the cultural inclination to do so. Passing and moving is not some bizarre foreign import - every 6 year old learns how to do it - but you have to actually exercise that on a weekly basis and be entrusted by the manager to do so. It's fairly clear from the Kazakh game that our players are caught in two minds about what they're supposed to be doing, which is why you see St Ledger hoofing the ball when McCarthy has come short, or O'Shea bashing it long to Walters when Cox is in acres down the line.

Too true. There are a lot of changes needed but we all know Trap won't make them.

That's the problem with the guy. He's way too stubborn. Just look at Whelan. The lad barely shows for the ball, is as slow as a wet week and doesn't have an ounce of leadership in him.

The team is lacking leadership and has no defence - all four of the lads at the back could be replaced. Perhaps keep Sledge and let the other three go. Wilson should be the left back hands down. Coleman should come in at right back and Dunne and Sledge (I would even go for Andrews as a partner for Dunne as he has all the attributes of a good defender).

Work on from there with McCarthy bossing proceedings in the middle and McGeady Long and Doyle all featuring. Walters too perhaps, but Robbie is not past it, he's way past it. Time to build a new ball playing team.

It's probably been mentioned already, but as bad as the tactics (or lack of) were last night. There didn't seem to be any leadership on the pitch.
No one was willing to take control of the game or even attempt too.
Our "leaders" Keane, Whelan, O'Shea were probably the worst players on the pitch.

Keith Andrews "Few positives but we still won": http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...on-206938.html

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Originally Posted by Zizou

More like anyone who is sad and pathetic enough to pick the bones out of a win, like anyone on here actually knows better than Trap. The lot of you make me laugh. Keyboard experts.. 3 points ladies. 3 points.

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Yeah, f*cking genius masterplan from Trap yesterday.

Cop yourself on.

Is it worth mentioning that on 14 October 2009
[Kazakhstan] Kazakhstan 1:2 Croatia [Croatia] 1:2 (1:1)
Sergey KHIZHNICHENKO (26')
Ognjen VUKOJEVIC (10')
Niko KRANJCAR (90'+3)

So Croatia only sneaked a win in the 93rd minute, worse than us!!!

I would remind you Croatia were world ranked 8th at the time!!

Also Denmark and Greece only managed 2-1 in 2005 both ranked about 20ish.

They occasionally take a hammering presumable when they concede early, but if they
do not it seems they are a tricky fixture.

May work in our favour the match was so close.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Work on from there with McCarthy bossing proceedings in the middle and McGeady Long and Doyle all featuring. Walters too perhaps, but Robbie is not past it, he's way past it. Time to build a new ball playing team.

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Nobody seems willing to credit Robbie with actually winning the penalty!! Had he not been following up in hope for the umpteenth then nothing would have come from doyle's run, would just be another example of disjointed, aimless play. The Trap approach actually suits Robbie the least, chasing hopeful knock ons is not using his talent wisely. Apart from STILL being our best goalscorer he also has more guile, skill, awareness than the other striker we have but that ability is not being utilized. If I was building a ball playing team Keane would absolutely be part of the plan.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

The Kazakh players were not technically better than ours. We have better technical players who could pass them off the park easily if they had been instilled with the cultural inclination to do so. Passing and moving is not some bizarre foreign import - every 6 year old learns how to do it - but you have to actually exercise that on a weekly basis and be entrusted by the manager to do so. It's fairly clear from the Kazakh game that our players are caught in two minds about what they're supposed to be doing, which is why you see St Ledger hoofing the ball when McCarthy has come short, or O'Shea bashing it long to Walters when Cox is in acres down the line.

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CD - they are technically better as they've been schooled better than our players. The most eye-opening moment for me came 2 years ago in Dublin, watching Ireland panic and collapse against a decent Russian team. Ireland began playing with conviction, had the first chance, and before the match the Russian media and public were hopeful - yes, hopeful - of grabbing a point! Then there was a mistake at the back for Ireland and suddenly the players reverted to type. Skill and ability has been coached out of our players by the British system, it's embarrassing to admit, but it's true. All the talk always drags back to the EPL and our players there. There was a time, 20-30 years ago, when our players were good enough to play on mainland Europe at the top level. Now, we have Aiden McGeady who sparkles in a different formation in Russia though is probably on the way out. Money and glamour is all important so our players (and their families and agents) won't venture far from home. But it's not their fault.

Armenian football is weak but they have been investing in their youth development and their players are playing abroad at good levels. The Kazakhs likewise are investing in youth development (I wasn't sure but was told last night it's a German plan) and gradually seeing results. We (I won't say prostitute) flog our youth off the England and Scotlan for a quick buck and then rely on a poorly constructed home league to pick them up when it doesn't work out. Our players are not comfortable on the ball, regardless of the manager, because they've been trained not to. If we develop our youth structures at home then we might just get back on track.

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Originally Posted by Zizou

3 points.
We got the maximum amount of points on offer.
On a plastic pitch.
In flippin' Kazahkstan.
Who gives a monkey's how we did it.
On to the next.

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No doubt that's what you thought after San Marino.

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Originally Posted by PatJR

Nobody seems willing to credit Robbie with actually winning the penalty!! Had he not been following up in hope for the umpteenth then nothing would have come from doyle's run, would just be another example of disjointed, aimless play. The Trap approach actually suits Robbie the least, chasing hopeful knock ons is not using his talent wisely. Apart from STILL being our best goalscorer he also has more guile, skill, awareness than the other striker we have but that ability is not being utilized. If I was building a ball playing team Keane would absolutely be part of the plan.

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That's the run you'd expect Robbie to make every time though. The running of the strikers as a whole when balls were coming into the box was poor generally though.

I tell you what, major credit to Robbie for the way he took the penalty. Totally unflustered by the delay and despatched without any fuss whatsoever. Quality.

I personally thought Kazakhstan we're technically poor. There were occasions in the game where if they were able to move the ball quicker they would have opened us up but they didn't have the technical ability to do so. They also did resort to launching the ball long up to their number 9, who technically must be one of the poorest players our centre halves will play against in international competition.

We certainly have the players to play a more expansive game than what we showed the other night.

Calling for Robbie's head is a bit unfair. The supply he received was somewhat slack and he wasn't presented with any half-chances. The run for the penalty was good and the finish was without fuss and well-dispatched. I wouldn't be calling for Doyle and Long up front quite yet. I'd prefer Keane and Doyle as strikers, with Long on the wing in place of Cox.

In the case of Long, it's quite irritating to see one of our best organically home-grown talents failing to gain a start behind players of lesser quality and form.

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Originally Posted by bishbash

Anyone who defends this rubbish is mentally unstable.

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Appalling description, and wrong.

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But hey he got us to euros and should only be judged on results.

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Accurate description, and correct.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

There's no breaking these guys down, not with nine men across the box like that. Twenty minutes to go in the match and we all know that we won't score.

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.......

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Great win. It was never in doubt, just a matter of time before we got the goals we needed I figured.

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:eek:

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

How the hell did we get a win?!

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Because we scored 2 and they scored less.

The job was done, however unpretty it looked, it was done. The campaign is over 10 games. The pressure is now on Austria and Sweden to go to that far flung hellhole, and dodgy pitch, and get the same result. Unlike in San Marino, just 3 teams have beaten that lot on their own patch by more than 3 goals over the years in UEFA competition.

Trap remains unbeaten as Irish coach away from home, a record that has now stretched to 13 games. Goodness knows how a squad stuffed with players from world beaters such as Wolves, Stoke, Sunderland etc would cope without him at top class international level.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

Holy Sh*t, was swamped at work all day, thought this one was in the bag anyway. Just reading back...must have been a hell of a game to watch in the pubs.
But a win is a win right?:confused:

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A win is not a win in this case. It's a miserable loss.

It's a loss of understanding of what the game of football is. It's a loss of understanding, somewhere along the line, by the players and management, of what actually the fans want to see.

And I can say this, with my hand on my heart, that some of the players in the current Ireland team (Ward, O'Shea, O'Dea, Whelan) wouldn't get their place in teams I have played for throughout an amateur career. The team needs three defenders, a leader on the pitch (you're right Robbie is not a leader nor is Richard Dunne) and a leader off the pitch. And all of them, if they're worth their salt, should get together and challenged themselves to play the ball on the floor.

No it's not worth mentioning. What your missing my friend is the elephant in the room. And that is the horrendously bad performance from the winning team.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

A win is not a win in this case. It's a miserable loss.

It's a loss of understanding of what the game of football is. It's a loss of understanding, somewhere along the line, by the players and management, of what actually the fans want to see.

And I can say this, with my hand on my heart, that some of the players in the current Ireland team (Ward, O'Shea, O'Dea, Whelan) wouldn't get their place in teams I have played for throughout an amateur career. The team needs three defenders, a leader on the pitch (you're right Robbie is not a leader nor is Richard Dunne) and a leader off the pitch. And all of them, if they're worth their salt, should get together and challenged themselves to play the ball on the floor.

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Seriously? I'd honestly make reference to all Dunne's leadership qualities but I'm hoping your comment was in jest. Wasn't it?

I agree. I said it before the Euros that Robbie should be our playmaker in the middle of the park. It's a no brainer because, as you point out, he has the guile, skill and awareness to make things happen. Having said that though (and I do give him credit for winning the penalty) he was five yards off the pace against Kazakstan. And long term I can't see Robbie commuting all the way from LA for a team which keeps hoofing the ball long. I think Robbie is one or two games away from quitting the scene.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

No it's not worth mentioning. What your missing my friend is the elephant in the room. And that is the horrendously bad performance from the winning team.

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I think we really need to address the Elephant in the room. It'll cost us a fortune in stamps, but we have to do it ;)

Trap has to go. Friday was embarrassing and our late goal is just prolonging the inevitable embarrassment that will be germany and Sweden if we continue with these tactics.

The problem is Delaney can't afford to sack him.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

A win is not a win in this case. It's a miserable loss.

It's a loss of understanding of what the game of football is. It's a loss of understanding, somewhere along the line, by the players and management, of what actually the fans want to see.

And I can say this, with my hand on my heart, that some of the players in the current Ireland team (Ward, O'Shea, O'Dea, Whelan) wouldn't get their place in teams I have played for throughout an amateur career. The team needs three defenders, a leader on the pitch (you're right Robbie is not a leader nor is Richard Dunne) and a leader off the pitch. And all of them, if they're worth their salt, should get together and challenged themselves to play the ball on the floor.

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I can see what you're broadly trying to say and would agree to some extent but you've presented it far too melodramatically.

I don't think "what the fans want to see" is that important, if entertainment is what you mean. I maintain that entertainment isn't a big deal but my main gripe is that we try to be compact but we're not, we don't utilise some players in their natural roles, we place too much pressure on limited enough players by asking them to perform a role their toolkit doesn't allow them to perform or by putting them at a numerical disadvantage. The problem with the team is not so much that they're not entertaining, it's that it's anti-entertaining, it's actually frustrating and annoying to watch because I think we can get more from this bunch.

I think Dunne is a leader on the pitch. He's got presence.

For me leadership isn't just fist pumping and shouting, it's playing to the best of your ability more often than not and showing your team mates that you're better than your direct opponent. Dunne has done that a lot over the years.