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I am not denying anything, simply stating all this speculation is worthless, the truth will come out eventually. Do you not think that alot is going on behind the scenes at present ? Obviously doing their best to resolve the situation ? Personally making all the details public immediately was not going to change anything if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
To be fair i am not of the same opinion of Sammy Wilson but i am sure he would assume Steve is always right anyway !!
If not the Glens or Ports, who amongst the present IL teams are likely to open an "arms race", in your opinion? The fact is, even Linfield, beneficiaries of an annual 6 figure sum from the IFA, are managing to keep within their budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Indeed, since the demise of Omagh Town (reputedly for more nefarious reasons than over-ambition) and Coleraine's close shave, IL clubs look to have been "cutting their cloth accordingly" for the past few seasons.
Good examples were Bangor voluntarily deciding to withdraw from the IPL (before they got into too much financial difficulty); the Ports being able to survive unexpectedly failing to get their IPL Licence; Cliftonville and Donegal Celtic doing up their grounds without incurring too much debt; or Crusaders looking to put in a credible challenge to the Big Two, without "gambling the farm".
No, yours was not conjecture, it was hypothesis; there is a difference. (And btw, it was very weak and ill-informed hypothesis at that)Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
No "fixation" at all. It's just as a fan of an IL club, naturally the aspect of DCFC's current plight which most interests me is the possibility that it could conceivably lead to their returning to the IL (i.e. if the only alternative were the 'A' League).Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
But as I was ever careful to note, I've always thought that to be "odds against". And following very recent developments, I'd say the odds have lengthened even further, though not because their future in the LOI is looking surer.
Rather it's because the debt may be so bad that when/if the crash should come, whatever emerges from the wreckage is liable to be so badly damaged that it might not even qualify for a licence from the IL. :eek:
Anyhow, whatever happens, I wouldn't like to see the club disappear completely.
Derry City chairman Pat McDaid says the club will survive despite debts approaching half a million pounds.
The club’s board met with shareholders, local businessmen, politicians, creditors, former directors and sponsors in Londonderry’s City Hotel last night to try to find a way out of the crisis.
Following the meeting Derry chairman Pat McDaid says the club will be able to make an announcement about the future by the early part of next week .
“Derry City has a proud 81-year history, so the football club will survive,” Mr McDaid said.
“At this moment in time I and the board want to rectify this problem once and for all.
“Obviously we want to be playing premier division football next season, but our main priority is that we have a football club and what division they'll be playing in next season is secondary.”
If Derry fail to met the December 21 deadline to pay all their creditors in time to secure their UEFA licence, they face the prospect of relegation.
But they are also facing the twin threat of a winding-up order launched against them by Dungannon Swifts for non-payment of £30,000 due on Niall McGinn’s transfer to Celtic.
“As a club we are trying to address everything. There would be no point in us trying to sort out one thing and then move on and try to sort another thing. Myself and the board now want to try and sort everything and also ensure that we aren’t in this terrible position in the future,” said Mr McDaid.
It’s thought the club’s current debts could be well in the region of £450,000, with around half of that debt owed to players and staff members.
Employees are currently owed eight weeks wages.
As I said, I can't see Derry City not existing
Of course we'll survive.
We just won't be in the Premier Division of the LoI.
I'm not entirely sure how the Chairman can spin that as a positive....
For the third time, do you not think that a winding up order is fact and not speculation?Quote:
Originally Posted by dortie
You're sounding very much like the Shels and Drogheda fans at the time of their implosions - we can't do anything without facts, I'm sure there's work going on behind the scenes, nothing to see here, let's move along and see how it turns out. I would have thought the league had learnt something in the last few years, but evidently not.
Absolutely don't want to see Derry die, which is why I don't like seeing the "Sure let's wait see what happens" attitude. The notion that a poster can come on and criticise MariborKev's pessimism and nosiness is bizarre, when it's in fact exactly what's needed.
But sure you believe/make up whatever you choose.
Stu,
It's been the default attitude on the Derry site for the last few years, I don't take any heed of it.
And I see Redie's presumably come around, given he's deleted his post? :confused:
Apology accepted, I suppose.
It so disappointing to see some Derry fans have a heads in the sand attitude when some of the same people were so critical when certain Shels fans adopted a similar approach 3 years ago.
So what plans have Derry come up with apart from a bucket collection in order to raise some cash? I know they met with Sponsors, etc but they will hardly want to lump in money for something that might go out of existence. In the Drogheda situation, the fans really got behind the club, imo that's what's needed at Derry, either that or fold and reform under a new identity like MKev is saying all along, save the heart ache and unrest.
Are the board going to come clean and tell Derry fans exactly what to expect and what is needed to save the club, I know McDaid mentions it in his press release but will he really tell all?
It's all a bit too sparce on information, sweeping under the carpet is becoming an art form in this league.
Gutted for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeixlipRed
Please LeixlipRed, no "i told you so" or they laughed at us so.... Whats happening at Derry, Cork etc is bad for the League (as it was with Shels). Hope that Derry can sort the mess out and stay in the prem as similar to Cork the league would be worse off without them.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeixlipRed
Are the finances at Bohs under control? It was looking very dodgy there for ages but it seems what I'm hearing from the club is that things have been sorted?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
As far as I know we expect to "make" the 65% rule for this season (our most immediate concern). we will again suffer a trading loss on the season which will add to our historic liabilities and we will have to come up with a plan to start addressing these (and initially to at least stop adding to them).Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayjames
Our budgeting for next year will have to be more restrained (we cannot budget on winning the League, Champs Lge or the eurovision (even with Johnny Logan on board). I understand the wages budget already agreed/commited will reflect that.
As previously mentioned we may have "tenants" in Dalymount next season (and behond) which will add to income and there may be further developments in the near future.
I would not go as far to say as things have been sorted but it appears the board are facing up to the problems and starting to seriously address them.
As I am not a memebr of the Board/ employee of the club the above could be wrong but it is my understanding of the current state of play at Dalymount.
Dortie - I did not say or imply that you were addicted to following "the party line", or had a misplaced sense of loyalaty to board members or players.Quote:
Originally Posted by dortie
But your apparent insistence on knowing all the facts before forming a view might be theoretical laudable, but hardly practical. The full and complete "facts" of the Shelbourne, Cork, or Drogheda debacles will probably never be completely known. But by the time that the "fact" of examinership was established for Cork and Drogheda it was irreversible.
Commenting from a position of historical fact might be a little irrelevant at some point in the not-too-distant future for Derry City.
Rasing concerns and expressing opposition to what one observes happening to your football club currently is much more then a right of Derry City fans - some might suggest it is a duty
Cobh had their ground to lose, so they couldn't just declare bankruptcy.Quote:
Originally Posted by MariborKev
Derry on the other hand...
£400,000 was the figure beating about at the meeting on Monday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Heggy
Apparently, we're getting an EGM soon.
It's quite clear that Derry City FC are in serious trouble and at present it doesn't look like there is a way out of it for them.
Dungannon chairman Jarlath Faloon said: “We have agreed to commence winding-up proceedings against Derry City. Numerous deadlines have been missed, empty promises have been made and our board has had enough.
How can some City fans not see how serious this is ? The head in the sand attitude is scary. It is real and Derry are on the brink of going out of business as we currently know them.
I think nearly all the fans on here are well aware how serious the situation are and have been aware for ages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo69
Some people don't like washing their dirty linen in public and others, principly on our own forum, are so brainwashed by the views of the current board that its too late for them to change opinion and save face.
As with every club that has hit the wall, there's always a group that will deny until the bitter end.
I'm not sure its particularly newsworthy or merits discussion.
Where the money went and what the current financial situation is, is much more interesting and relevant IMO.
Derry have been down this road so many times before that there is no appetite to rally round the club. Especially when the board have treated fan concern with such disdain. Why should anyone put in the graft for them and the club as it is now? Fold up and get it over with. Then we can restart Derry as a club everyone can all get behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Heggy
Thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Is there anything to be said for having another Mass :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo69
Hope it gets sorted soon. It is galling to see clubs close to going under for sums a fraction of the Premier League's weekly wages to over hyped players.
The views of the board, or their public pronouncements? These aren't the same thing, and if it's really the former, Derry are dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
It's hard to see any alternative, the way things are going.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
But will "everyone" still be willing to get behind whatever new entity emerges?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
The club's diehard fans will (self-evidently) continue to get behind them, but what about the "average" fan, never mind the "occasionals", if DCFC2010 should end up, say, in the 'A' League?
Maribor K estimated that crowds could fall as low as 100 fans in those circumstances. In which case, there will be no gate money to pay even part-time players. What standard of player could they hope to sign on a "generous expenses" basis?
Then there is the impact that playing at that level, with that standard of player, would have on sponsorship/advertising/corporate etc i.e. it would decimate it.
Plus the fact that so many local businesses etc will have been "burned" during this and previous financial crises, that there will be very little credit (literally and figuratively) available to the club in the wider community.
And as for the other traditional "solutions" in such situations, the club cannot sell/re-mortgage its stadium or training ground, nor is there likely to be any wealthy "sugar daddy" in the wings. Moreover, whilst the local Council is presumably reasonably well-disposed towards the club, there is no sign that they can or will inject significant funds to help salvage the situation. (In fact, I shouldn't be surprised if the GAA lobby in Derry is delighted to see the "soccer" club struggling, and would do whatever they could to block its revival).
And while the fans/general public in Derry might also be generally well-disposed towards the club, even if not active attendees etc, it would be hard in the present economic climate to expect them to dip into their pockets and build a new club, in the manner of eg AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester.
Looking at the bigger picture, I can't help wondering whether DCFC's relative failure to capitalise on their undoubted support (other than when spending money they don't have, that is) all stems from an inherent structural weakness? That is, other comparable clubs have either owned their ground outright, or at least had a long lease with their local Council, which allows them to borrow/re-mortgage/raise share capital etc, when times are bad, or in good times, when they have wanted to expand.
Whereas the complicated ownership of the Brandywell has meant that Banks/Shareholders/the Council etc could not justifiably or rationally invest significant amounts in the club, even if they wanted to.
So that even if DCFC should somehow get through the latest crisis, unless or until this inherent structural weakness in the club is resolved, it is hard to be confident that there can be a viable long term future for DCFC in top-flight football anywhere in Ireland (ROI or NI).
Of course it will never happen, but the purely "logical" solution would be a merger with their neighbours in Drumahoe for a spell in the IL (as a part-time club), before the new "Derry City Institute FC" moved into a new municipal stadium somewhere in the City.
Oh well. :(
Lads,
We wont see ye stuck! Ye can always move South of the border,maybe Stranorlar, call yourselves Finn Harps,drop the pink stripes and play in a new superdooper stadium!(I know its childish but I just couldn't resist!;))
More conjecture and hypothesising.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The answer is - we just don't know, and won't know until it happens.
And whilst Maribor is right on most things, I think he's wrong if he's suggested we'd only get crowds of about 100 in the A League. That would mean over 90% of current season ticket holders deserting us. I could probably list a hundred people in Derry who'd I'd be confident would go to games regularly, and I haven't lived there for 18 yrs !
We'd struggle to attract big crowds to the A'league - granted. But I don't believe for one minute our hard-core would evapourate to that extent. I'm sure the doom and gloom merchants said the likes of Luton and York etc would face tiny crowds when they fell out of football. Reality is that they're getting their biggest crowds in years down there.
Personally I'd love watching some new teams and having some wacky away trips for a year or two. So long as it wasn't any longer - which is the key thing.
Why would or should Derry City Council put a penny into DCFC ? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
And the GAA lobby in the city is small. Active, and they have the ear of the Shinners, but nonetheless small.
More hypthecating and conjecture. How about we just see what happens, eh... ?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Conversely - there is a view within the footballing community that owning a ground can often be a burden towards a club, particularly when they operate in a weak league. On the basis that it leaves them prone to predators who buy the club just to use the ground (e.g. lots of non-league clubs in London), ort they constantly erode the value in the ground by wacking debt against it until it no longer exists (e.g. Shels and Bohs), or a fan-owner views sale of the stadium as the only way to get any money back after they've chased the dream for too long (Kilcoyne at Rovers). So owning a ground can often be a burden as much a sblessing. It hasn't done much good for Bohs, Shels or Drogs to-date, has it....?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Conversely, there are lots of clubs in the world who play out of municipal grounds they don't own and who prosper. And what is so complicated about the model of playing out of a municipal stadium ? It's very normal in Europe, the US, Australia etc. The Brandywell may be semi-decrepit, but it isn't the reason why we're in the trouble we are now.
So the crux of your long-winded post is to suggest that Derry City is an inherently unsustainable entity, regardless of who runs it or what form it takes - purely bnecause we don't own our own ground. Are you listening Shamrock Rovers ??Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Where to begin, where to begin..... :o
I think the best solution all-round to our stadium siotuation is for Institute, Derry City and City of Derry Rugby Club to all agree to play in a single new purpose-built municipal stadium - preferably at Templemore. That would be a relatively difficult proposition for the Assembly, IFA etc to say no to. But it won't happen, given the geographical splits in the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
About as logical as Glentoran merging with Linfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Not really, Institute are a very small club with a couple of supporters. Derry City are in the verge of being nothing. A merger would be beneficial for both clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Linfield on the other hand are pretty healthy, we own our stadium, have little to no debt, running at profits each year and although our support this year is very poor, it's still amongst the biggest around.
Glentoran although financially not so great, they still own their ground, have a similar following to Linfield and in no need to merge with Linfield.
Two very different scenarios.
In saying that, I do agree that it's a non-runner and shouldn't be considered (and it wont).
But to compare the two scenarios as like for like is equally as wrong IMO.
I don't disagree with most of what you say, but I disagree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
A merger may benefit the respective legal entities, but on the basis the essence of a football club is its fans, and 90% of them would be against it, then its clearly wouldn't benefit "the clubs".
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
You may well be correct, and MK incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Perhaps, but I would argue that of those two clubs (both in significantly bigger cities than Derry, btw), York are now operating nearer their true" level and while Luton are currently benefiting from a "Blitz Spirit", their crowds are still v.significantly down on their long-term post-War average.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Besides, the Conference is an almost all full-time league of 24 teams, whose average crowds and stadia are significantly better than the 10 team LOI Premier, never mind the 'A' League.
No doubt, though it is hard at this stage to see how "DCFC 2010" could guarantee it would be less than a year or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I'm not saying they should, merely pointing out that one "benefactor" (i.e. the local Council), which is sometimes prepared to help out clubs in DCFC's situation, isn't likely to do so here, that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
No doubt; however, I merely mentioned them as (yet) "one more thing..."Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Might as well close the thread for now, then, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Nonsense! Just because certain other clubs have squandered or abused a valuable asset, doesn't mean it is better to have no assets at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Or are you seriously suggesting that the source of Bohs/Shels/Drogs woes are not incompetent (or worse :eek:) management etc, but rather because they owned their own grounds...
I never asserted that playing in a municipal stadium is inherently unsustainable, nor do I have to go to Europe/US/Oz etc to find models where it does work - Ballymena United or Shamrock Rovers, for instance, are perfectly good examples nearer to home.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Rather, the point I was making was that as a source of "capital", to sustain them during difficult times, DCFC own neither a stadium nor a long-term lease on a stadium (nor have a particularly helpful owner of the stadium in which they do play). Try to keep up.
No, I did not say that at all. DCFC has certain valuable "assets", chiefly a loyal support, goodwill in the wider community and a proud history etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
But it also has a major problem in its (historic) lack of capital, which makes it inherently weak, not "unsustainable".
Therefore, the club can still thrive despite this weakness when times are good and it is being well run.
However, when times are hard or it is being badly run, it will struggle.
And sadly, there may be only so many times a club can recover from periods of struggle, especially when hit by the double whammy of hard times and bad management, over a prolonged period.
Hadn't thought of City of Derry RFC, tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
But regardless of how unlikely such a solution may be, for various reasons, it may still need something equally radical and imaginative, if DCFC is going to survive in recognisable form.
P.S. There is a difference between "long" and "long winded". :rolleyes:
Like a new trading vehicle (hopefully members owned) and a relegation one or two divisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Is that radical enough?
Thats what most reasonable fans I talk to are hoping for at this stage.
If it's a new company, there's no relegation as such. The new company has to apply for a license of their own, the current one can't be transferred. Something that needs to be thought about given that applications were to be in last Friday.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Is examinership an option? Does it work the same in the UK as here?
They call it administration, but similar enough, I think. Thing is, they still have to cut a deal with their creditors, and they've already burnt (or at least badly scorched) those bridges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
I deleted it because I realised I misread the context of your post regarding the winding up order but I just feel this crisis is a matter for Derry City fans, all of who are dealing with it in their own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Derry City has contributed so much to Irish Soccer over the past number of years and their supporters contribute a hell of a lot to the coffers of the clubs they visit - our cup game against them a couple of months back was one of the best nights in The Showgrounds this season - I really hope they come through it.
As I've said many times before the enforcement NI legislation around administration is worlds away from the examinership process. Its chalk and cheese.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
HRMC look for c80% upwards iirc from the last time we went under.
That even ignores the lack of goodwill we have built up which only makes it a more remote possibility.
The examinership is a lovely process, you're guaranteed to be saved if you go into it if you're a football club. In any other business Cork and Drogheda would have been gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Originally Posted by EalingGreen:
"But regardless of how unlikely such a solution may be, for various reasons, it may still need something equally radical and imaginative, if DCFC is going to survive in recognisable form"
If one discounts the opinion of MICL and Schumi etc (i.e. that it is not so simple as all that), then that may be enough... ...for the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
What I am getting at is, why is a club like DCFC, with so much obviously going for it, still getting into such deep trouble? That is, a club like yours might expect following a bad run etc to have to sell a few players, make economies, drop down a Division for a season or two and so on.
But after 20 generally successful years (League Titles, Cups, Europe, big crowds, transfer income etc), this is now the 3rd(?) time the club's very existence has been threatened.
Sure, there has been poor management etc, but all clubs face that from time to time, without it risking being terminal.
Which leads me to think that it is actually more than that. And if so, I can only think that it is because throughout its history, DCFC has never had access to significant capital, either internally or externally generated, to prevent a problem becoming a crisis.
For if you look at other clubs which have hit hard times, in Ireland or elsewhere, if all else fails, they can usually rely on the Bank or a 'Sugar Daddy' etc to bail them out, with the risk secured against assets. Leeds, for instance, have suffered terrible problems, which really should have sunk them, but they have always got by, since they could always remortgage or sell & lease back Elland Road and/or Thorpe Arch.
Which is why I feel that DCFC needs something radical i.e. even if they somehow extricate themselves from the present crisis, the next one may be only a short distance away.
And you can only go to the well so many times, before the bucket comes up dry...:(
I don't buy this. More clubs in the LoI don't own their grounds than do. Sligo's is held in trust (as are several others - Athlone? Monaghan?), Shams, Fingal and Waterford have council-owned grounds, UCD's ground remains the property of the college. Shels have sold theirs, Bohs have sold theirs, Bohs have sold theirs, Cork rent, as do Limerick and Galway (?). Drogheda's is owned by the FAI since a bail-out of old. There was a thread on this a while back.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
"That bit over there, we sold it two times"
Seriously though, while 3 separate entities may have a claim on the Tramway end, we haven't actually sold the ground in toto to anyone.......yet.