O'Neill gives his backing for a United Ireland team

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

Why should we be giving you anything?

---

Er...you aren't. That was rather my point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

After all we're the underdeveloped, uneducated, papist South that wasn't worth dragging through the industrial revolution?...Didn't quite work out that one did it? Another laughable policy enacted by the Great British Empire. The great international pirates of modern history. They stole the riches from everywhere they went until there was nothing left.

All I'll say is things have improved but there's a long road ahead of you

---

And you, judging by the above. The industrial revolution in Ireland was in the 19th century... ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

Don't be so foolish. I've seen a number of videos on youtube in fairly recent years of NI fans singing the sash before games. Cardiff away to Wales was one that springs to mind. All I'll say is things have improved but there's a long road ahead of you.

---

Sorry, I should have mentioned that those were the words of Neil Lennon.:D

Regarding your revelations of The Sash being sung by some fans in Cardiff, we can all dig up tales of the unexpected on You Tube - but it's a bit pointless.;)

BTW isn't The Sash an Irish cultural song, sung mainly by members of a community signified on the national flag of the Irish Republic?:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gather round

Er...you aren't. That was rather my point.



And you, judging by the above. The industrial revolution in Ireland was in the 19th century... ;)

---

Exactly and my point is that we should give you no more than any of our other European neighbours though I'd imagine you receive more from the ROI in financial donations than we receive from yourselves.

There was no industrialisation of southern Ireland to any large degree in the 19th century.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

BTW isn't The Sash an Irish cultural song, sung mainly by members of a community signified on the national flag of the Irish Republic?:confused:

---

No it's a song commemorating the victory of the international alliance under William of Orange over the Irish Catholics in the Battle of the Boyne in 1690.

I never understood why only the unionists up north sing such a song while the Dutch, Germans and Danish don't seem to bother singing it when I've been abroad in each of their respective countries considering it was those nations that did most of the fighting.

Strange how people twist history to further their own agendas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

No it's a song commemorating the victory of the international alliance under William of Orange over the Irish Catholics in the Battle fo the Boyne in 1689.

I never understood why only the unionists up north sing such a song while the Dutch, Germans and Danish don't seem to bother singing it when I've been abroad in each of their respective countries considering it was those nations that did most of the fighting.

---

I was informed by a, historically well educated, poster on here actually that the "international alliance" was religiously mixed - indeed, some of William's army flew the Papal Flag and had the blessing of The Vatican.

Anyway, never mind the Dutch, Germans and Danish, the colour orange appears on the national flag of the Irish Republic to this day - therefore, it seems to hold much significance on the island of Ireland.

Consequently, I don't understand what your problem with The Sash is - not a football song admitedly, but then neither are such cultural/historical songs as The Fields Of Athenry.

As you say, it is strange how people twist history to further their own agendas.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

Exactly and my point is that we should give you no more than any of our other European neighbours though I'd imagine you receive more from the ROI in financial donations than we receive from yourselves

---

Glad we cleared that up then. Obviously I only mentioned mentioned it in response to Janey Mac's spurious, dishonest claim of €4 billion transferring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

There was no industrialisation of southern Ireland to any large degree in the 19th century

---

I know, most of the industrialisation was in Ulster. I was merely suggesting that you move on, and stop obsessing about the 19th century. Why mention it in the first place?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I was informed by a, historically well educated, poster on here actually that the "international alliance" was religiously mixed - indeed, some of William's army flew the Papal Flag and had the blessing of The Vatican.

Anyway, never mind the Dutch, Germans and Danish, the colour orange appears on the national flag of the Irish Republic to this day - therefore, it seems to hold much significance on the island of Ireland.

Consequently, I don't understand what your problem with The Sash is - not a football song admitedly, but then neither are such cultural/historical songs as The Fields Of Athenry.

As you say, it is strange how people twist history to further their own agendas.

---

As I said the song is not cultural. How is it cultural when it's a song composed celebrating the mainly Protestant International Coalitions victory in a battle over the Irish Catholics more than 3 centuries ago? The battle was in the majority fought between Irish Catholics and European Protestants so how can Unionists up north claim it's part of their culture? I possibly would understand (though not condone) them singing it if they had fought the Catholics in a battle unassisted (or at least where they composed the majority of the forces of one side) and achieved such a victory but as stated above William's main and best forces were largely from continental Europe.

Where in the civilised world would you hear anyone else still singing such a song about a battle so long ago where the outcome of such a battle had little to do with their participation? Only such madness can persist up north.

P.S. Next time I go to Oslo I'm composing and singing a song about the battle of Clontarf to annoy the Norwegians. If this sounds ridiculous I agree. However, it would only be as ludicrous as singing the sash if 90% of our forces were composed of Germans during the Battle of Clontarf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by co. down green

As I recall, Ian Dowie, Kingsley Black & Kevin Wilson all made an appearance when we qualified for the 94 World Cup at Windsor in November 93

---

November 1993. Nearly 15 years ago. Assuming this was your last visit for an NI international, I hardly think that qualifies you to pontificate on the current situation as regards fan behaviour.

Glad we got that one sorted, then. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

As I said the song is not cultural. How is it cultural when it's a song composed celebrating the mainly Protestant International Coalitions victory in a battle over the Irish Catholics over 3 centuries ago. The battle was in the majority fougth between Irish Catholics and European Protestants so how can Unionists up north claim it's part of their culture. I possibly would understand (though not condone) them singing it if they had fought the Catholics in a battle themselves and achieved such a victory but as stated above William's main and best forces were in the large majority from continental Europe.

Where in the civilised world would you hear anyone else still singing such a song about a battle so long ago the the outcome of which had little to do with their participation? Madness of the highest order and definitely not cultural.

---

I think your view on the historical facts is a little askew, but that's not for here.

Why does the national flag of the Irish Republic have orange in it?

Whilst not a staunch supporter of Orangeism (it's lost it's way terribly, in terms of what it's supposed to stand for), without a shadow of doubt, many aspects of it are cultural.

As for The Sash, there are no words in it which denegrate.

In fact, the opening line of the song includes the words "from Erin's isle I came".

I presume Erin's Isle is the island upon which you and I both were born and bred.

The OWC take seriously quotes from Lennon, Jennings and MON about how wonderfull the NI support is and about what an honour it was to play for NI.
At the same time, the same players sentiments for an All Ireland team are put in the mildly interesting but antagonistic department.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I think your view on the historical facts is a little askew, but that's not for here.

---

I'm pretty up on my history tbh Not Brazil.

The orange is on our flag to represent the Protestant community, the white peace and the Catholics are represented by green. Singing a song about a 300 year old battle which pitted both creeds against each other is hardly respresentative of our flag's intentions, in fact I'd go as far to claim it's the antithesis of what it stands for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In fact, the opening line of the song includes the words "from Erin's isle I came".

I presume Erin's Isle is the island upon which you and I both were born and bred.

---

So why can't we all just admit we're Irish and get along instead of using any additional British identity as a means for division?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

The OWC take seriously quotes from Lennon, Jennings and MON about how wonderful the NI support is and about what an honour it was to play for NI. At thelaim same time, the same players sentiments for an All Ireland team are put in the mildly interesting but antagonistic department

---

Are you suggesting this is illogical captain? Surely not. Anyone (ex-player or not) who suggests abolishing the NI team is antagonising. If it's only mildly interesting, as you claim, that's largely because there's no realistic likelihood of it happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

So why can't we all just admit we're Irish and get along instead of using any additional British identity as a means for division?

---

We are quite happy to admit we are Irish, and we are equally relaxed being British too. If you see that as a means for division, sorry, but you'll just have to lump it. Not as if we're trying to force you to be British, eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

I'm pretty up on my history tbh Not Brazil.

The orange is on our flag to represent the Protestant community, the white peace and the Catholics are represented by green. Singing a song about a 300 year old battle which pitted both creeds against each other is hardly respresentative of our flag's intentions, in fact I'd go as far to claim it's the antithesis of what it stands for.


So why can't we all just admit we're Irish and get along instead of using any additional British identity as a means for division?

---

Evidently not that well up on your history youngirish.

Why orange to represent "the Protestant" community?:confused:

Are you suggesting that the Irish Republic needs a new flag?:confused:

I have "admitted":rolleyes: long ago that I am Irish - I am also, proudly and unapologetically, a British Citizen.

I don't mean that to antagonise you, or to cause division.

That's what I am, and that's the way it is.

Once more people begin to respect that the terms Irish and British are not mutually exclusive, and that people like me are not just pretending what we are, then we might have less division.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gather round

We are quite happy to admit we are Irish, and we are equally relaxed being British too. If you see that as a means for division, sorry, but you'll just have to lump it. Not as if we're trying to force you to be British, eh?

---

The division in this respect rests (and has always rested) on unionists shoulders. Nationalists feel 0% British (as we should). Unionists often feel Irish though so why have they used their perceived Britishness as a means to divide them from the rest of the Irish population?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

Don't be so foolish. I've seen a number of videos on youtube in fairly recent years of NI fans singing the sash before games. Cardiff away to Wales was one that springs to mind. All I'll say is things have improved but there's a long road ahead of you.

---

And I've seen more recent videos e.g. of ROI singing "Stand Up if you Hate the Brits" before a game. Against Germany. In Germany. Or I could refer you to reports on this very Website of some pretty gross behaviour by ROI fans in Dublin before the Israel game. And what would that prove? Nothing, except that every large crowd has its share of ********s, but that they needn't spoil the enjoyment of all true fans at the actual game, as is the case at both Lansdowne and Windsor. Perhaps you need to attend to the beam in your own eye, before pointing to the mote in ours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

I said you didn't reach the Quarter Finals as one of the other NI fans posted previously. Note to EG, a Quarter Final means that there's only 8 teams left in the competition not 12. If we take your results in the second group stage as a whole then the highest you could claim that NI finished was tenth overall in the competition So you still wouldn't have made the last 8 on merit.

---

Oh ffs! There wasn't a Quarter Final stage in 1982. Instead, we qualified for the nearest equivalent i.e. the stage between the Qualifying Round and the Semi-Finals. Of course one cannot say how we would have fared had there been a Round of Sixteen, but having topped our Qualifying Group we would have drawn one of the weaker qualifiers. As it was, we were up against Audtria and France in the second stage. We drew 2-2 with Austria over 90 minutes. As one of the fittest teams in Spain, I personally would have fancied us to beat them in extra time, since we finished much the stronger. As for or not being able to make the last 8 "on merit", that's bunkum, since it wasn't physically possible!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

Finally if you are seriously stating that a quarter final appearance in 1958 should be considered with the same merit as a quarter final appearance in the relatively modern game then you are deluding yourself my friend. Have a look at how many teams actually even bothered trying to qualify in 1958 compared to today. The USSR alone must have removed over a dozen countries from qualification and Yugoslavia about 5. Large areas of the World didn't bother taking football seriously (Africa, Asia and Northern and Central America). The quality of the players was in no way comparable either to the quality today.

---

As I pointed out, and you ignored, on our trek to the Quarter Finals in 1958, we came up against Italy, Portugal, West Germany, Czechoslovakia, Argentina and France - every one of them a leading power, then and since. As for the break up of e.g. the USSR or Yugoslavia, surely those people who advocate a "united" Ireland team on the basis that it would be stronger than either NI or ROI must recognise that the old combined teams must also have been stronger than their splintered successors? :confused:
And surely the quality of more recent tournaments has been diluted by the inclusion e.g. in 2002 of the likes of Saudi Arabia - Played 3, Lost 3, Goals For 0, Goals Against 12?
As for your assertion over the quality of players in 1958, you really are exposing your ignorance for all to see. Or don't you rate the likes of Fontaine, Kopa, Happel, Charlton, Finney, Haynes, Yashin, Charles, Seeler, Walter, Rahn, Gren, Hamrun, Masopust, Mackay, Hidegkuti and Sandor? Or Blanchflower, Gregg and McIlroy? Or even this lot of "journeymen"?
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive...eam=43924.html
Recognise any of those names? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

so why have they used their preceived Britishness as a means to divide them from the rest of the Irish population?

---

:rolleyes:

Nothing "perceived" about it.

That's a grossly disrespectful, and ignorant, comment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Why orange to represent "the Protestant" community?:confused:

---

The orange is, as far as I'm aware, used to represent the Protestant community. It might seem like it's generalising a bit but it's the most appropriate colour. What colour do you think should be used to represent you for our flag? Would you say green is representative of the whole of the Republic of Ireland? We're not all a bunch of eco-warriers you know...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

The division in this respect rests (and has always rested) on unionists shoulders. Nationalists feel 0% British (as we should). Unionists often feel Irish though so why have they used their preceived Britishness as a means to divide them from the rest of the Irish population?

---

We identify as British and Irish, you just as Irish. So clearly you are forcing the division just as much as we are. I genuinely don't see the problem in principle. You aren't British any more than you are Chinese or Indian. No-one is forcing you to be anything you don't want. You can't reasonably insist to anyone else which other nationalities they identify with. It's up to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by youngirish

The division in this respect rests (and has always rested) on unionists shoulders. Nationalists feel 0% British (as we should). Unionists often feel Irish though so why have they used their preceived Britishness as a means to divide them from the rest of the Irish population?

---

What on earth has any of this guff got to do with the continued existence of a Northern Irish football team which draws its players and its support from people who, outside of the stadium, may describe themselves as Nationalist, Unionist or apolitical? As has been the case for 128 years?

And you and people like you have the cheek to accuse us of being political? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmurphyc

The orange is, as far as I'm aware, used to represent the Protestant community. It might seem like it's generalising a bit but it's the most appropriate colour. What colour do you think should be used to represent you for our flag?

---

But why orange?:confused:

I don't care what colours you have in your flag, and I don't care if I'm not represented in it - it's not my flag, and never will be.

I'm just curious as to why the colour orange - youngirish seems to think that orange is more to do with Dutch, Germans and Danish people, than anything to do with people born and bred on this island.:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmurphyc

The orange is, as far as I'm aware, used to represent the Protestant community. It might seem like it's generalising a bit but it's the most appropriate colour. What colour do you think should be used to represent you for our flag? Would you say green is representative of the whole of the Republic of Ireland? We're not all a bunch of eco-warriers you know...

---

This non-Orangeman, non-Protestant Irishman couldn't care less what flag you choose for your country, or why. Even more to the point, this Irish football fan cannot see the slightest relevance of it in the debate over the future of NI retaining its own separate, independent international football team.