Eligibility proposal

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

Well Northern Ireland have always had the option of playing any one entitled to a British passport even those who were not eligible to play for the Republic under any criteria, and who had no direct contact with the wee North unless I am greatly mistaken.

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You are mistaken. It was only UK nationals not born in the UK. And that is no longer the case.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

The FAI don't claim all the players in the six counties, just the ones who want to play for us. FIFA will do nothing about citizenship laws, to do so would embroil them in national politics and would set a precedent that would echo way beyond this issue.

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Under the rules all NI players are eligible for the South. That means one FIFA member can call up all the players of another FIFA member. That is plainly unfair and the IFA should have been arguing that point, requesting FIFA to rule that birth/parentage requirements, etc. are necessary in cases like this where extra-territorial laws are involved.

No-one has said FIFA will do anything about citizenship laws - how could they? They are the governing body of a sport! The point is that FIFA should deal with its own rules.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

so if BlanchFlower has seen the light and understood, does that mean that EG will also have?!

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I have said all along that the current rules mean that anyone in NI is eligible for the South. My point is that the current rules should be changed.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Under the rules all NI players are eligible for the South. That means one FIFA member can call up all the players of another FIFA member. That is plainly unfair and the IFA should have been arguing that point, requesting FIFA to rule that birth/parentage requirements, etc. are necessary in cases like this where extra-territorial laws are involved.

No-one has said FIFA will do anything about citizenship laws - how could they? They are the governing body of a sport! The point is that FIFA should deal with its own rules.


I have said all along that the current rules mean that anyone in NI is eligible for the South. My point is that the current rules should be changed.

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Why is it plainly unfair? What would be unfair is to prevent a player from playing for his chosen nationality. If players really want to play for NI then there is nothing preventing them from doing so. FIFA came up with the compromise as they no doubt realized that to support the IFA's position would require a rule change which they would be loathe to do. Of course they are a governing body of a sport which is why they do not want to get involved in a political issue.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Why is it plainly unfair?

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Er, let's see ... perhaps because one FIFA member gets all the players of another FIFA member to pick from in addition to its own players?

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

What would be unfair is to prevent a player from playing for his chosen nationality.

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Players' choices are of necessity restricted to the eligibility rules.

The "unfairness" of not enabling Southern citizens without the necessary connections to play for the South would be an "unfairness" merely felt by the poor individual players themselves (bless 'em). There is a much greater unfairness being suffered in general terms by an entire FIFA member by allowing all its players to be eligible as of right for another rival FIFA member.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

The "unfairness" of not enabling Southern citizens without the necessary connections to play for the South would be an "unfairness" merely felt by the poor individual players themselves (bless 'em).

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They have the necessary 'connections' as you call it. At least FIFA seem to think so and that's why they allow the FAI to pick such players.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

There is a much greater unfairness being suffered in general terms by an entire FIFA member by allowing all its players to be eligible as of right for another rival FIFA member.

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Yeah my heart bleeds for the members the IFA board because they are unable to prevent individuals in Northern Ireland from representing the country that they have always supported and considered themselves to be nationals of. I wish the IFA had been given more rights to curb those of the individual players which let's be honest is who this decision is really going to affect.

Are all the grapes more sour the further North you travel on this island?

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Are all the grapes more sour the further North you travel on this island?

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Nah i'd say they're delighted in Donegal !

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Originally Posted by youngirish

They have the necessary 'connections' as you call it. At least FIFA seem to think so and that's why they allow the FAI to pick such players.

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Er, yes, I know that:mad:. We're discussing a hypothetical situation in which birth/parentage, etc. criteria were used.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Er, let's see ... perhaps because one FIFA member gets all the players of another FIFA member to pick from in addition to its own players?

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As I said before we only get to pick the players who want to play for us, IE those who do not wish to play for NI. I dont know why the NI guys cannot grasp this simple concept, they dont want to play for you.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Players' choices are of necessity restricted to the eligibility rules.

The "unfairness" of not enabling Southern citizens without the necessary connections to play for the South would be an "unfairness" merely felt by the poor individual players themselves (bless 'em). There is a much greater unfairness being suffered in general terms by an entire FIFA member by allowing all its players to be eligible as of right for another rival FIFA member.

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Now it becomes clear that you give very little weight to the players individual preference which is what this is all about. Are you afraid that nobody would want to play for you?

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

......Under the rules all NI players are eligible for the South......

........I have said all along that the current rules mean that anyone in NI is eligible for the South. My point is that the current rules should be changed.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

.....The "unfairness" of not enabling Southern citizens without the necessary connections to play for the South would be an "unfairness" merely felt by the poor individual players themselves (bless 'em). .....

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Who is the 'South' and 'Southern citizens' you keep referring to? :mad:

To the best of my knowledge there is no nation called 'South of Ireland' or Southern Ireland' registered with FIFA, even though PROC would love to have their own registration! :D

However, if by the south you mean Cork, Kerry or Limerick then I am sure arrangements can be made without FIFA intervening, although it is more likely to be an issue for GAA teams rather than soccer!

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Originally Posted by livehead1

I've just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading all that ****e! Utter madness

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I just wasted 10 seconds reading your sh*te. :p

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Originally Posted by Gather round

...The thing is, I disagree with yesterday's Indo (basically, they think Euro qualifying is all but over, "nothing to see"). Wrong. This game is still important, for overall position, bragging rights, momentum and the rest of it. As is the one in Belfast. Before it, our chance of qualifying is 1%- 2% ; but if we win and Spain don't against Sweden, that rises tenfold going into the last round on Wednesday week. That would be our biggest game since 1986- bring it on ;)

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The most difficult thing I think you'll have is beating Denmark.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

As I said before we only get to pick the players who want to play for us, IE those who do not wish to play for NI. I dont know why the NI guys cannot grasp this simple concept, they dont want to play for you.

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They might, and probably would, want to play for us if they were ineligible for the South.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Now it becomes clear that you give very little weight to the players individual preference which is what this is all about. Are you afraid that nobody would want to play for you?

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The players' individual preference is NOT what this is ALL about. On the contrary, that is only part of it. The main concern is not about individuals, but about the NI team put forward by the IFA - one of FIFA's members.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

They might, and probably would, want to play for us if they were ineligible for the South.

The players' individual preference is NOT what this is ALL about. On the contrary, that is only part of it. The main concern is not about individuals, but about the NI team put forward by the IFA - one of FIFA's members.

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I admire your honesty.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Who is the 'South' and 'Southern citizens' you keep referring to?

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I think you probably know the answer to those questions, so I won't indulge you with an answer.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

To the best of my knowledge there is no nation called 'South of Ireland' or Southern Ireland' registered with FIFA, even though PROC would love to have their own registration!

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There's none called "Ireland", either, but I notice you haven't complained when other posters have used that terminology!:eek::mad:

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

The players' individual preference is NOT what this is ALL about. On the contrary, that is only part of it. The main concern is not about individuals, but about the NI team put forward by the IFA - one of FIFA's members.

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I don't want to get too soppy and deep but in a nation such as ours with all the oppression and associated conflict that it has endured over the centuries for anyone to state that the rights of a football association should outweigh the fundamental (and legal) rights of the individual really does show that some people still have a long way to go.

I can understand why NI fans are pi**ed off but they really don't have a leg to stand on. How would you feel if you were a football player and were forced to play for the ROI instead of the NI team that you obviously support and love? I'd say you'd be over the moon. I don't see too much difference with the previous scenario and this elligibility issue bar the shoe being on the other foot and the inconvenient (for some) placing of some borders in the last century.

If Clinton Morrison can play for the ROI with no objections from anyone then surely Darron Gibson in any fair minded individual's opinion should be able to also.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I think you probably know the answer to those questions, so I won't indulge you with an answer.


There's none called "Ireland", either, but I notice you haven't complained when other posters have used that terminology!:eek::mad:

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Haven't seen any (but to be fair I haven't checked every post) but have seen plently of references to 'us', 'FAI' 'Republic'.

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Er, yes, I know that:mad:. We're discussing a hypothetical situation in which birth/parentage, etc. criteria were used.

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But as you have argued that it should be part of the fair solution, it becomes indirectly part of your primary argument :)
If the Republic had all of a sudden decided to give all those born in the Isle of Man, Irish citizenship and with a wink invited some of their footballers to declare for us, you would have a case.
As our land has been divided and northern nationalists against their will found themselves eventually outside the boundaries of a Republic in 1948, their enshrined constitutional rights measure up to as part of the thinking in the way FIFA have constituted their articles.
That was part of our past history but also present history (GFA) has also supported those full constitutional rights that Northern nationalists have earned.
It is not by a FIFA technicality that NI born are entitled to play for the Republic, it is a carefully thought out, FIFA player's rights thinking, set into their statutes. FIFA´s statutes already, with a purpose, measure up a player's rights quite highly against a Federation's rights.
To paraphrase your argument that FIFA should change current rules re eligibility,
I would refer you to the 'unfortunate' IFA submission that 'current FIFA rules be applied properly' :)

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Originally Posted by youngirish

I don't want to get too soppy and deep but in a nation such as ours with all the oppression and associated conflict that it has endured over the centuries for anyone to state that the rights of a football association should outweigh the fundamental (and legal) rights of the individual really does show that some people still have a long way to go.

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The individual has no legal "rights" - he or she can only play for whatever team he is eligible for according to the rules as decided by FIFA.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

How would you feel if you were a football player and were forced to play for the ROI instead of the NI team that you obviously support and love?

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If I wasn't from NI and didn't qualify for them, I'd be disappointed, but would accept it.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

If Clinton Morrison can play for the ROI with no objections from anyone then surely Darron Gibson in any fair minded individual's opinion should be able to also.

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Where is Clinton Morrison from, how does he qualify, and which country did he switch from to play from ROI?

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Originally Posted by geysir

But as you have argued that it should be part of the fair solution, it becomes indirectly part of your primary argument

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What becomes "indirectly part of my primary argument"?

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Originally Posted by geysir

If the Republic had all of a sudden decided to give all those born in the Isle of Man, Irish citizenship and with a wink invited some of their footballers to declare for us, you would have a case.
As our land has been divided and northern nationalists against their will found themselves eventually outside the boundaries of a Republic in 1948, their enshrined constitutional rights measure up to as part of the thinking in the way FIFA have constituted their articles.

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1. The FAI doesn't have any (divided) land.

2. The actual jurisdictions of each FIFA member is more important than the political views of individual people within those jurisdictions. Many people in former Soviet republics lament the collapse of the USSR, but that doesn't mean that their views override the international boundaries between Russia and those republics.

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Originally Posted by geysir

That was part of our past history but also present history (GFA) has also supported those full constitutional rights that Northern nationalists have earned.

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No-one's saying that those "full constitutional rights" should be affected in any way.:eek:

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Originally Posted by geysir

It is not by a FIFA technicality that NI born are entitled to play for the Republic, it is a carefully thought out, FIFA player's rights thinking, set into their statutes.

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Nonsense. NI players are eligible for the South simply because of the South's citizenship laws. If you're trying to suggest that FIFA drew up its statutes in order to fall into line with the citizenship laws of one individual member, I think you're off your rocker.

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Originally Posted by geysir

FIFA´s statutes already, with a purpose, measure up a player's rights quite highly against a Federation's rights.

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Indeed. But in the case of NI, the balance is too far in favour of the individual, due to the South's extra-territorial laws.

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Originally Posted by geysir

To paraphrase your argument that FIFA should change current rules re eligibility,
I would refer you to the 'unfortunate' IFA submission that 'current FIFA rules be applied properly'

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You don't need to. I have been aware all along that the IFA was using the wrong argument.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

Haven't seen any (but to be fair I haven't checked every post) but have seen plently of references to 'us', 'FAI' 'Republic'.

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I have called 'us' Ireland. Why? Simple. That's the name of the country. If you are going to call it Republic of Ireland then let's have Republic of France, Federal Republic of Germany, etc. in every post. Northern Ireland are playing Denmark on Saturday? No they're not. They're playing the Kingdom of Denmark. Please use the coutry's proper name in all posts. Spain the following wednesday. Please don't insult it with anything less than 'Kingdom of Spain'. :rolleyes:

If NI was an independent state - two Koreas or two Congos or what Vietnam, Germany etc used to be - then I'd concede that proper titles should be used to avoid confusion. But what you have is one country called Ireland and one - wrongly imo fwiw - a region of Britain (or the United Kingdom of etc. etc.)

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

...Many people in former Soviet republics lament the collapse of the USSR, but that doesn't mean that their views override the international boundaries between Russia and those republics...

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Does Russia grant citizenship to those of Russian ethnic backgrounds in their former states - i.e. those not granted citizenship through ancestry?

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Originally Posted by lopez

I have called 'us' Ireland.

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I look forward to Superhoops correcting you.

By the way, your problem in using "Ireland" is that it's a misnomer - there are two countries, and two teams in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Does Russia grant citizenship to those of Russian ethnic backgrounds in their former states - i.e. those not granted citizenship through ancestry?

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I don't know, but the Latvian, Ukrainian, Estonian, etc. FAs, might be interested in the IFA's predicament and might be supportive of rules to clarify situations such as this. The Bosnian FA in particular would be interested. The IFA should have been lobbying with these FAs.