The little Englanders would probably prefer to spend the extra money to visit the motherland.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
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The little Englanders would probably prefer to spend the extra money to visit the motherland.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
A fair bit of political kite flying going on at the moment.
Firstly Páirc Uí Chaiomh - not a hope there will be any games there. That stadium was designed for hurling, with a bit of gaelic football and the odd rugby game or concert on the side. If they were wanting to build it to cover major international sporting events they should have built it in a completely different form than they did. But that was their choice to make - the stadium as built can't host Euros games and can't be turned into a venue that can host them without being pretty much rebuilt again. It's a complete non-starter.
Croke Park - could do the job alright. The Hill would probably not be used, but that still leaves over 70,000 seats, sizeable corporate and media facilities and plenty of premium areas. It wouldn't take a lot to have it up to UEFA standards and UEFA previously accepted a much smaller stadium in Portugal where one end was a rock face with no seats, so an empty Hill wouldn't be likely to make much difference, even if they rule out temporary seating (which was apparently fine for FIFA in Russia a few years ago). The two venues in a city thing could be overruled again I would imagine if the will was there to keep the games on the island.
However, the more likely outcome I would guess is that the games are just shifted across the existing venues without too much fuss. The compromise might end up being that Dublin gets two extra games at Lansdowne, rather than just one extra. Then maybe one each for Scotland, Wales and England (was it five the north were supposed to be getting?).
The bigger row will likely be about the qualification places, given there is currently scope for 1) a UEFA member auto qualifying that isn't hosting any games and 2) a UEFA member that isn't hosting any games being allocated a qualification place at the expense of one or more UEFA members that are hosting games.
Given that we are now down to four actual host members I would argue the best thing that could be done at this point is to allocate three host places (not unreasonable for a 24 team tournament) safe in the knowledge that everyone knows that England will qualify and therefore all members hosting games will be at the tournament.
If I was a nordie I would be going ballistic about this
Jesus think past your noses guys. We made 110m for an American college game a few weeks ago
If you have casement built get it locked in to the contract, that has to be used for the benefit of the all of Northern Ireland
So we've gone from NI's football matches being staged in a GAA stadium in Belfast, to NI's football matches being played in a GAA stadium in Dublin, incidentally the same city as will also be hosting games at the AVIVA?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Meanwhile, NI doesn't as yet really have a suitable training base (incidentally my own hope for a "legacy" from this tournament) for competing teams.
Take a step back and think again about what you're proposing...
"Unique circumstances"? Are we veering into "Team 33" territory here?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
As for the shortlist, that was drawn up by the five Associations, not UEFA - I don't blame the FAI for asking, but when Old Trafford, Anfield and Sunderland were rejected, what hope was there for Croke?
And look at it from UEFA's and the competing teams' and fans' pov. Do they really want to be away from the main action (i.e. GB) unless absolutely necessary? I mean, those ROI-based teams who qualify from their Group are either having to take flights/ferries to continue in the tournament, or decamp entirely to GB.
Meanwhile, if the one-stadium-per-city rule is "movable", then why weren't England entitled to have two venues in London - a city with twice the population of ROI, 7 x PL clubs, 5 x 30k+ stadia (plus Wembley and Twickenham), the most sophisticated urban transport system in the world after Tokyo, 5 x international airports and a rail link to the Continent. Oh and many more hotel beds than ROI and NI combined. Do you really imagine that UEFA are going to make an exception for FAI/Dublin?
Head in the sand stuff to think either Croke Park or Pairc Ui Chaoimh will get games.
There is no comparison between 2004 and 2028. For one thing, that tournament only had 16 teams. And for another, distances between the venues were far shorter than between Eng/Scot/Wales/NI/ROI. While to incorporate another couple of stadia in separate Portugese cities would have meant a 25-30k stadium in a city of fewer than 100k people, which may not even have had a f-t professional club previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Above all, the Portugese government paid an absolute fortune to a load of clubs to build new stadia or rebuild existing ones, so that UEFA appreciated the physical legacy that the tournament was providing - they weren't going to chance their arm by demanding that games be taken away from one of Sporting/Benfica or Porto/Boavista, to be staged instead in some provincial backwater in the middle of nowhere, were they?
And as for London, the FA wanted Wembley, which they own, for England games, but UEFA declined, since it would give them an "unfair advantage" to be in their "home" stadium. (Very few other major countries have a specific National Stadium where the NT plays all its games). Therefore they were told to choose another venue (Spurs), with Wembley kept in reserve for the Semi's and Final.
Sorry, have I stumbled onto politics.ie, or the Sinn Fein home page?Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Either way, that sort of garbage adds precisely nothing of value towards a debate which has otherwise been conducted respectfully and relevantly.
Why would any team want to use NI as a training base?
Do not believe that construction inflation accounts for increased costs from the original £77m agreed by the GAA, to the present £200m? £300m? £400m? being speculated at present. The major factor is the GAA demanding a build a shiny big, all-singing all-dancing super stadium which they themselves forecast would be filled to a 32k capacity for precisely one sporting event per year, the Ulster Senior Football Final. (That 32k figure was proposed long before the Euros were even considered and itself followed their original demand for 38k, before they were told that that would never pass H&S).Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
And even for construction inflation, whose fault was it that 14 years later, they haven't even put a spade in the ground at what is a derelict tip? (Clue: an organisation with the initials "G", "A" and "A").
It's not - or shouldn't be - anything to do with Unionism or Nationalism etc, not least since just as many Unionists aren't particularly interested in Football, many Nationalists aren't particularly interested in Gaelic games either. Rather it is to do with resources and priorities. And as a taxpayer, I can see no justification whatever in seeing my government handing over maybe £300m for a White Elephant like that. And I genuinely would say the same if they were to blow, say, £300m on Windsor.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
But now you bring football into it, consider this. When The Maze Stadium was (finally) binned, HMG agreed to hand over the £154m budget to build their own national/provincial stadia as follows. The GAA and IFA were to receive equal amounts i.e. £62m each, with Ulster Rugby to get £20m (to reflect their much lower participation rates etc).
The GAA decided to rebuild Casement for £77m (i.e. adding £15m from their own resources). While the IFA decided to spend £26m of HMG's funding on Windsor, with the remaining £36m to go towards sub-regional stadia throughout NI (it was widely believed that Glentoran and Derry City were to get the bulk, £10m each). HMG imposed a condition that this latter sum would not be released until Windsor/Casement/Ravenhill were completed first.
Which means that it's not just Casement/Andytown/Antrim which have suffered from the (avoidable) delay incurred by the GAA's incompetence, but NI's other football clubs too. Is anyone going to compensate them for construction inflation?
Which is before you get to the original principle that the IFA and GAA should both be treated equally - "parity of esteem" and all that. Meaning that if HMG were to come up with, say, an extra £100m for the GAA over and above the original £62m, then they should be honour bound to do the same for the IFA. Or at least, they should divide whatever etra sum they do have equally between the two bodies, with a smaller portion for Rugby while they're at it.
Sounds reasonable enough to me but how about this for an alternative? Instead of blowing £400m on Casement, the two governments could instead use it to buy every NI and ROI fan a return ticket with Ryanair to all our respective games - and still have enough left over for a drink at the bar, John Delaney-style!Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
It would be like going to Saipan or somewhere...oh wait!
There's probably going to be a handful of teams based in Ireland for the group stages, so I don't see why one of them couldn't be based up there. Of course if they're gifted a place (or qualify through the normal systems, unlikely as that may be), they could use it themselves.
How many facilities are there around Ireland at the moment that could facilitate an international squad for two weeks, including accommodation, training facilities, pitches etc all on one site? There's Carton House, but are there many more? Maybe Moyvalley or Adare Manor or somewhere? Most of those places are more built around golf clubs rather than team sports facilities.
I'm not sure that all of it should be somehow handed back etc - the GAA certainly deserves a reasonable (stress) amount to rebuild Casement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
But one of the GAA's justifications for building such a stadium was that it could also be used for non-sporting events, such as concerts and festivals. (They had to come up with something, I suppose, seeing as even by their their own admission, there was precious little justification for 38k/32k for sporting purposes).
Anyhow, just think of the implications of that:
1. This is public money being provided to compete with existing private or Council-owned events venues, which receive little or no subsidy themselves;
and
2. This money is coming from NI's sports budget and so should be used for sporting purposes only. Meaning any profit derived from non-sporting events should be returned to the donors at HMG/Stormont/Dublin etc, ideally to be redistributed amongst other sports, whom I'm sure would appreciate it.
Now, now, don't be asking inconvenient questions like that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Besides which, don't you know the Minister's reply? I have it handy here for just such occasions:
"Ah now, don't worry, sure it'll all be grand, just you wait and see..."
If teams playing out of Dublin are based in NI, that's potential investment lost in our infrastructure. The FAI surely don't want this. The goal should be to maximise the legacy impact of the tournament for our facilities, not share benefits with another association that isn't even hosting. Similar for the Welsh and Scottish FAs. And there practicalities involved - it is two different political jurisdications after all. If a team is playing in Dublin, why bother with any eventual hassle of being based in NI? And look at it from UEFA's and the competing teams' and fans' pov. Do they really want to be away from the main action unless absolutely necessary? I mean, those potential NI-based teams are either having to take flights/ferries/ lengthy cross-border bus journeys to partake in the tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Had a quick search and there seems to be few. Carton House as mentioned - the Irish rugby team base themselves there for extended camps so it will be a decent standard. Castleknock Hotel has a setup also and the Ireland football team stay there a lot. And Johnstown Estate is another. But probably still scope for one location like that in the north if there isn't anything of that type there already.
Fota Island?
When you put it like that...Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
But I would put it another way. Whenever UEFA and the various governments talk about these things, esp including the money being spent on them, they always bang on about "legacy".
Usually this legacy comes in the form of stadia, even though sometimes these are hardly very much used subsequently. Now had NI/IFA got a new 30k football stadium from the Euro's I'd have been delighted (obv), but that was never going to happen.
But we do desperately need a proper National Training Centre, so I hope the IFA are pushing HMG hard that if they (HMG) are going to provide an enhanced sum towards the GAA for Casement, then on the principle of equality etc, they could surely find a sum of, say, £30-40m to build such a Centre for Football. This would provide a genuine legacy for the game in NI for years to come, with the added bonus that some of the Euro28 teams could choose it as their base for a couple of weeks. (As others have said, Belfast is only a couple of hours by road or rail from Dublin, or even a 40 minutes flight to Liverpool, Manchester or Glasgow, from either of our two, yes two, international airports in the city!)
That's an inevitable outcome of Casement falling off the list of stadiums, and it goes beyond just football into the wider economy. Two stadiums in Ireland meant more teams based here, more requirement to develop facilities, more investment both in sport and the wider economy. There would definitely have been a fair bit of economic overspill into the republic as a result of a stadium being used in the north, given how small the north is in comparison - they were never going to be able to accommodate a whole group's worth of teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Which is probably why all the politicians are coming out now to at least make it look like they're trying to keep those games on the island, however unlikely that may be to come to pass.
Where do they meet up and train currently ahead of games, out of interest? For a tournament like Euro 2016, were they not based there at some period in a camp before the tournament, or was it all done somewhere in England before they went to France for the tournament itself?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The FAI should not be sharing/ diluting the benefits of hosting the tournament with an association not hosting games - and especially in the context of its funding needs (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...over-15-years/)Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Any team using a training camp in NI, and playing out of Dublin, is investment in our facilities lost.
Yet you regularly see NI fans using Dublin for flights.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Surely it is for the teams themselves to determine where they stay/train, not the local Association(s)? And they will choose the facilities which best suit their needs, including travelling times.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
While your fears over teams using Belfast is entirely moot anyhow, since barring Jordanstown(?), there is probably nowhere feasible in NI. And if we were somehow to get an NTC that could do the job before 2028, that would only be as a result of funding from HMG, not Dublin/FAI.
Not for games in GB you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101