Stephen Kenny

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Originally Posted by Exgrad

Yes its the lack of progress that gets me, Friday night was on par with Luxemburg at home, possibly worse as for most of the Friday we just played hoof ball, or else went sideways and backwards. Had a quick look at the starting 11 against Luxemburg and only 2 outfield starters from that game started Friday, Doherty and Cullen. Not sure what that says, other than Kenny has managed to get absolutley dreadful performances out of pretty much two different teams. I think his best performance was Slovakia away in the play off.

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Little bit of perspective though. It was not Luxembourg, it was Greece in Greece who have a much better footballing history and culture than us. We lost by 1 goal, not a hammering. It was poor performance yes, but in isolation not a disaster.

Of course the previous bad results against the likes of Luxembourg is the killer, but you said it yourself, 9 changes in that time. The age profile of the squad is very young and I do still think we will improve as the squad ages. I felt before this campaign that Kenny may not be around to see the fruits of these players maturing, but I think our impatience for results needs to be tempered slightly. I'll just use Troy Parrott as a small example. Some are ready to write him off as a bust, it's crossed my own mind at times... but he's 21, a baby, and yet we are expecting the likes of him to compete against some of thr best footballing nations in the world. Idah was awful in Greece, I seen people say since that he is just crap and should never play for us again (not here, the cretins on social media), but he's only 22. Harry Kane was still going on loan and being average at that age.

Anyway, my overall point is that Kenny probably isn't the right man at this point, too many mistakes have been made, but I'm less in the out camp now than I was before this group started.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Little bit of perspective though. It was not Luxembourg, it was Greece in Greece who have a much better footballing history and culture than us. We lost by 1 goal, not a hammering. It was poor performance yes, but in isolation not a disaster.

Of course the previous bad results against the likes of Luxembourg is the killer, but you said it yourself, 9 changes in that time.

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It's more than just Luxembourg and Greece though. Latvia H - started great, they made a tweak and we were struggling for the last hour. Malta A - appalling stuff; completely unable to dictate the game against a side who brought on an LoI flop in the second half. Norway H (without Haaland) - unimpressive at best. Armenia H - shat the bed for the last half hour and for the last 15 minutes the next goal - deciding who'd be relegated - was looking like coming from Armenia, not us. Scotland A - not great. And the 2-1 scoreline in Greece shouldn't mask how bad a performance it was.

I agree with Exgrad when he says it's the lack of progress that's the main issue. There's no progress there. And if you go further back, the list goes on - losing to Armenia and Ukraine B. The 95th minute winner against Lithuania.

Probably the only good games were Slovakia A, Azerbaijan A, Scotland H and Ukraine A. We played well in parts against Belgium B and Luxembourg away, and had some heroic defending against Serbia (H) and Portugal (A), but that's rarely enough to win a game.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's more than just Luxembourg and Greece though. Latvia H - started great, they made a tweak and we were struggling for the last hour. Malta A - appalling stuff; completely unable to dictate the game against a side who brought on an LoI flop in the second half. Norway H (without Haaland) - unimpressive at best. Armenia H - shat the bed for the last half hour and for the last 15 minutes the next goal - deciding who'd be relegated - was looking like coming from Armenia, not us. Scotland A - not great. And the 2-1 scoreline in Greece shouldn't mask how bad a performance it was.

I agree with Exgrad when he says it's the lack of progress that's the main issue. There's no progress there. And if you go further back, the list goes on - losing to Armenia and Ukraine B. The 95th minute winner against Lithuania.

Probably the only good games were Slovakia A, Azerbaijan A, Scotland H and Ukraine A. We played well in parts against Belgium B and Luxembourg away, and had some heroic defending against Serbia (H) and Portugal (A), but that's rarely enough to win a game.

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I was furious myself after a lot of those games you mention, however I still think my overall point about the squad profile changing dramatically in the last few years accounts for some of those results. Yes, I believe that Kenny was cause of some of them with poor decision making. I'm not trying to be the last man standing here defending him against all logic, but I also think some of the rhetoric of the last few days has been disgraceful. We can't just start demanding we win games because we are sick of losing. I look at the 2 games of this campaign so far in isolation and I think the manager has done the right things and I don't know what other manager would have done better.

France we've discussed to death, Kenny got it as right as he could have I thought. Greece, they tried to prepare as well as possible. Training camps, good brave team picked, right subs and not too late. Players didn't perform though. I don't necessarily blame the manager for them not being able to make simple passes. Cullen looked a different player. Is that Kenny's fault or is it that our players are always less sharp in fixtures this time of year? Maybe it's both.

The squad is definitely weak and that's a big factor. There's a lot of young players and I don't think that helps. And for all we talk up our players here whenever they score a goal or make a pass or whatever, it's the worst squad we've ever had. We've no-one close to CL level. We've hardly anyone in the top flight of any domestic league. We've had a lot of new players coming in. These are definitely factors. A win in Greece was not something we could demand.

But when you put in a performance as bad as we did in Malta, then there's questions to be asked. Two years into this revolution and we can't excuse a performance that limp. And it's not in isolation (Luxembourg, Lithuania, Azerbaijan, Armenia twice). And even Greece, in its own way, was a continuation of that. We were beaten all ends up and we were lucky Greece fell down when it came to the final pass or shot.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Southgate got the England job almost by default. Allardyce had been caught in a sting by one of the tabloids posing as potential buyers of a premier league club talking about how he could get transfers pushed through, and had to resign. The FA had to appoint someone fast, nobody was interested, so Southgate got promoted from their U21s.

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So nobody was interested in a job paying £5m a year?

I'm sure they'd have got someone...

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Southgate, who already had experience managing in the Premier League, managed the England U-21s for three years and 37 matches, enjoying a 73% win rate. So, not really comparable with the Kenny situation at all.

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Not to mention playing over 500 league games in England, almost all in the top tier, plus League Cup winning captain, FA Cup finalist and European games, including UEFA Cup finalist with Boro.

Oh and 57 England caps, including a World Cup finals tournament and two Euro's.

But yeah, pretty much plucked from nowhere in an emergency to take over the Big Job.

I have a bit of an issue with the idea this is the 'worst squad of players' we've had. For me, Mick inherited a worse squad... this is the starting 11 for the 0-0 in Denmark:

Randolph
Coleman Long Duffy Keogh Stevens
Christie Hendrick Brady
O'Dowda
Aiden O'Brien

the 11 v greece was at the very least on a par. It wasn't as if the bench was much better either, the likes of Jimmy Dunne, Scott Hogan, Meyler and Arter...

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

So nobody was interested in a job paying £5m a year?

I'm sure they'd have got someone...

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They probably would have, eventually. But had been two months since Allardyce had been appointed, after Hodgson had resigned a month before that. The FA would have struggled to attract anyone in the short term when every candidate for the job knew they were second choice, at best, behind Sam.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Not to mention playing over 500 league games in England, almost all in the top tier, plus League Cup winning captain, FA Cup finalist and European games, including UEFA Cup finalist with Boro.

Oh and 57 England caps, including a World Cup finals tournament and two Euro's.

But yeah, pretty much plucked from nowhere in an emergency to take over the Big Job.

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nobody is saying he was plucked from nowhere, he was the England U21 manager. I'm not sure if it qualifies as an "emergency", but Allardyce had resigned on 27th September, the FA had to appoint someone before their two qualifiers in October, so Southgate was given the job on a caretaker basis until the end of the year. It was the best solution at the time, and barely relevant to this discussion

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Originally Posted by zero

I have a bit of an issue with the idea this is the 'worst squad of players' we've had. For me, Mick inherited a worse squad... this is the starting 11 for the 0-0 in Denmark:

Randolph
Coleman Long Duffy Keogh Stevens
Christie Hendrick Brady
O'Dowda
Aiden O'Brien

the 11 v greece was at the very least on a par. It wasn't as if the bench was much better either, the likes of Jimmy Dunne, Scott Hogan, Meyler and Arter...

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I agree with you here. Liam Brady said that at weekend too and I was so annoyed about it. If the players in our squad were late 20s to early 30s I'd be worried. I fully believe a lot of our players will become very good, but they were pushed in collectively too young together because we had to replace the like of the team you listed

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Idah was awful in Greece, I seen people say since that he is just crap and should never play for us again (not here, the cretins on social media), but he's only 22. Harry Kane was still going on loan and being average at that age.

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Er, Kane was born in July 1993. His last loan at Leicester ended when he was 20. The following season, 2013/14, he couldn't get into the Spurs team due to their having just signed Roberto Soldado, a Spanish international who had cost a club record £26m. Kane eventually got to play the last 10 PL games, scoring 3 goals.
The following season, when he was 22, Kane scored 21 goals in 31 PL games, plus another 10 in 17 Cup and European games.

I know nothing about Idah, and have nothing against him, but he's a long way short of Kane at a comparable age, a helluva long way.

I think the back six there were almost all better than what we had on Friday. Not by much, sure, but slightly better. I'd take that prime Coleman over current Doherty, prime Duffy over current Collins, Randolph then over Bazunu now, Stevens over O'Dowda (if nothing else I think it's far closer Stevens' natural position), etc. Our current crop may end up being better players, but that's not the point being made.

But certainly the difference in performances is more than the difference in the playing squad.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Er, Kane was born in July 1993. His last loan at Leicester ended when he was 20. The following season, 2013/14, he couldn't get into the Spurs team due to their having just signed Roberto Soldado, a Spanish international who had cost a club record £26m. Kane eventually got to play the last 10 PL games, scoring 3 goals.
The following season, when he was 22, Kane scored 21 goals in 31 PL games, plus another 10 in 17 Cup and European games.

I know nothing about Idah, and have nothing against him, but he's a long way short of Kane at a comparable age, a helluva long way.

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Grand, Kane was poor example. My general point was not all top players were instantly good. Drogba and Lewandowski to a certain extent were prob better examples.... and before people jump on me I'm not saying he's them, but he could be a very good player yet

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

I agree with you here. Liam Brady said that at weekend too and I was so annoyed about it. If the players in our squad were late 20s to early 30s I'd be worried. I fully believe a lot of our players will become very good, but they were pushed in collectively too young together because we had to replace the like of the team you listed

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It's arguably the worse midfield, but that's it. All the other departments aren't that bad actually. If you just look at Ferguson and obefemi.
( Although they do need to be picked first !).
They are better then any strike unit post Robbie Keane.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

They probably would have, eventually. But had been two months since Allardyce had been appointed, after Hodgson had resigned a month before that. The FA would have struggled to attract anyone in the short term when every candidate for the job knew they were second choice, at best, behind Sam.

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Aye, just like Jack Charlton was second choice after Bob Paisley.

As I say, £5m a year would have attracted plenty of names, had the FA advertised.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

nobody is saying he was plucked from nowhere, he was the England U21 manager. I'm not sure if it qualifies as an "emergency", but Allardyce had resigned on 27th September, the FA had to appoint someone before their two qualifiers in October, so Southgate was given the job on a caretaker basis until the end of the year. It was the best solution at the time, and barely relevant to this discussion

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Whatever the circumstances of his appointment, Southgate's credentials for the job were rather more impressive than those of Kenny respectively (no offence to him) i.e. distinguished playing career, club and England, a short spell managing in the EPL and a long (and successful) spell managing the U-21's.

And even despite that, he was still only given the post on a caretaker basis, as you say, until he had proved himself.

While Kenny was hardly an outrageous choice in the circumstances, he was still up against a rather smaller field of alternatives, and has since struggled rather more than Southgate (understatement).

Meaning comparisons between the two don't really stand up (imo). As I said earlier, I would say Baraclough/NI is rather more relevant to Kenny/ROI's case.

You can tell Ireland are in a rut. Ealing Green has come back :)

That’s overall a better than we have now.
Very little experience on pitch against Greece.

Brady would bring that experience.
Missed Coleman big time.

Nobody to put a foot on ball and keep ball for a duration. Missing a lot of composure

Whether previous squads were better or worse than what we have now is debatable, but my point is that I would rather the squad now to Micks 2nd stint because I know they will improve as they age and we have the possibility of becoming very good if some reach their potential. There was a few years there that it was painful, we had the likes of Cyrus Christie in midfield, attendances were down at home and there just seemed to be little future.

Whether we think Kenny is right man or not I think most of us agree that we at least have hope with the current squad and more to come in.

EDIT: IF there is a debate about whether this is our worst ever squad or not, we have a bit of a cheek to be upset at losing to Greece away. IF it is our worst every squad there should be no debate that finishing 3rd behind France and Holland would be a very good result by the manager.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

You can tell Ireland are in a rut. Ealing Green has come back :)

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Or, you can tell that the domestic season is over, but international football is back... :)

I for one appreciate EalingGreen's return and welcome the abundance of his no-nonsense knowitall opinions about all things FAI, managers and even offers opinions about players who he admits knowing nothing about :)

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

EDIT: IF there is a debate about whether this is our worst ever squad or not, we have a bit of a cheek to be upset at losing to Greece away.

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That's a bit of a strawman representation of the criticism I've seen.

I've seen very very few criticising the simple fact that we were defeated, but many more criticising the manner of the defeat.

We were utterly anaemic and rudderless all night, and I didn't think there was a single sign that were were making any progress in whatever direction the manager wants to take us in.

There's no 'cheek' in being disappointed with that.

There was a pre game RTE TO'D pre-match interview with Stephen K where Tony asked him if he was looking forward to the game. Before answering hesitatingly in the positive, Stephen touched his nose. I suppose most of us would have touched our noses before answering to express deep anxiety about the upcoming encounter.
He looked scared sh'itless.