Younger sample. In 30 years' time, the country will be perfect!Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Should probably kill all females too, just to be on the safe side.
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Younger sample. In 30 years' time, the country will be perfect!Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Should probably kill all females too, just to be on the safe side.
I trust Libertas, Sinn Fein and the Catholic Church even less though. I've read the Treaty and feel I understand some aspects of it (granted you'd need to take a course on it to fully understand it), and am in favour of a common defence and environment policy. I also hope that, despite the main party assurances to the contrary, that we may get such things as abortion brought into this country without the hysterical bleating of the Church, Sinn Fein and that month's Libertas when it is brought to an inevitable referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
As for hopefully getting rid of pointless referendums, well I don't trust the Irish public to make an informed decision on anything, we as a people seem to be even easier to lead by the media than most, possibly because we don't have the strict Party voting that places like Britain or America do, not that that's a great method of deciding either
Yeah, like I was saying, I hope to get rid of that. I'm not one for saying 'it was in the constitution that was drawn up decades ago so we must hold true to it'. Times change, countries change, people change and we all must learn to move onQuote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Was undecided as to how to vote as I entered the polling booth. Then looked at the ballot paper..which simply asked something like " Do you agree with the amendment to the Irish Constitution"....now I knew exactly what the proposed ammendment involved was ie the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty and acceptance of it's effect on our own Constitution.
However I felt that the overly simplistic manner in which the ballot paper was worded wasn't fair to anyone who hadn't studied in great detail the issue. Thus I went back to the table where I'd checked in my voting card and asked for a detailed copy of what I was being asked to vote on...was met by a combination of blank stare/are you an eejit sure everyone knows and finally we haven't anything.... I went back and voted 'no' on the basis that if the powers that be couldn't offer me a explanation of what it was about, then why should i vote yes... in effect we were being asked yesterday to sign an agreeement without being shown the small print
Technically correct, in practice an irrelevant comment. Both sides have acknowledged that the greater the turnout the greater propensity of Yes votes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
If thats your fear, you're about 10 years too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Uhm, the powers that be did offer explanations, and for and against arguments. They just didn't provide them at the polling stations. Polling stations are for polling.
I voted Tá.
I voted yes. Last minute decision too. I think the fact that so many different organisations came together on the yes side, many of whom are frequently at each others throats, swung it in the end. With Sinn Fein and a dodgy organisation called 'Libertas' championing a no vote I couldn't quite go that way. Very disappointed with the lack of information from the yes side though, it was more or less a case of 'do what you're told', if I wasn't generally pro European I'd have definitely voted no.
I also may have spoiled my vote, I didn't think the punch holes were fully through so I tried to fix them and may have ripped it a little. I was considering spoiling it anyway, that's how on the fence I was.
That's a bit OTT.... just take away their voting rights ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The treaty itself was there for all to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
This has annoyed me this time people saying i dont understand it then you ask them
did you read the treaty ? NO
did you read the booklet sent out to you ? No
Did you watch /listen to any of the shows that outlined it ? No Its the goverments fault i dont know whats in it :eek:
Listening to the tallies coming in on Pat Kenny and even with the cautions about early tallies -it's dead in the water. A solid NO all over the shop ...even in many middle class areas.
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Originally Posted by anto1208
My point is that when I asked for a copy at my polling station , they didn't offer it to me..but treated me with distain and seemed annoyed that I was looking for help. If as you say it was there for all to see then surely not too much to expect when I asked for it that they might show it to me...
Definitely the worst argument for voting one way or the other I have heard so far. Did you think you could read the Treaty at the polling station before you voted? Did you read the booklet at home? Maybe you are new to referendums but they always refer to a piece of legislation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
:eek::rolleyes:
Sounds to me like you were looking for an excuse to vote no.
If you were unhappy with the 'facilities' at the polling station why didn't you walk away? Or spoil your vote? Why should that warrant a No vote?
2 detailed leaflets, one in the legalese speak of the actual treaty and the other a breakdown by the Referendum Commission, were delivered to your door. This wasn't enough? Instead you ask a few laypeople with no more important role than cross out names on a register for advice, despite their express instructions not to influence people in any way? And then, rebuffed, you choose one side over the other, as if the people at the desk were the Yes side, and a personal dislike swayed you more than threats of joblessness or EU imperialism? From previous arguments, you don't always come across as the most lucid of thinkers, but this was certainly foggy thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
One thing that was remarkable to me was the reasons people were giving for voting No. The No campaign was very effective in scaremongering. My wife was telling me that everyone in her workplace said they were voting no because otherwise their sons would end up conscripted into a European army FFS!
People seem to have voted no for an incredible variety of reasons, many of which were completely bogus in my opinion.
I love early morning coverage of elections and referenda on RTÉ. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon of ~1% complete tallies only to go furiously into reverse at the slightest indication that they might have been wrong.
I'd love to know who defined what were middle class and working class areas.
Open question to all:
* What persuaded you to vote Yes/No ?
Personally I was really not influenced by any of the campaigners. In the early days Libertas made a lot of nose until I read up who they were, then discounted everything they said. Was thinking of a protest No vote why Bertie was still there but don't know if you have gone through with. Decided yes based on my own reading.
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Originally Posted by Sheridan
Listen in Sheridan. They're now giving acurate tallies from right across the country with cross section of urban, rural, socio-economic samples and they are quite consistently No. Where Yes is in front it is barely in front and is proving to be very much the exception rather than the rule. There'll be no backpeddling on RTE today. It's becoming quite bankable.
I'm sure they take into account a number of factors including past Dail returns, property valuations and whether or not they get shiney new buses every twenty minutes or clapped out ones that may or may not turn up hourly. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
I was influenced by my own reading on the Treaty (in favour of a common defence and environment policy), and my dislike/mistrust of Libertas, Sinn Fein and the Catholic Church
By that criteria I live in Favala section of Dublin so :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Fassaugh Avenue?Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Newstalk read out a few results/tallies from individual boxes to give indication that working class areas have large No vote & middle class scraping Yes votes. The only areas I remember they mentioned were Cherry Orchard & TerenureQuote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
I live in a working class area which is cheek by jowl with a middle class (i.e., high-income, which is what I suspect RTÉ mean) area with which it shares polling stations and an electoral ward, I imagine the same holds for many urban districts.
And people voted yes because they were convinced by the yes side we'd be chucked out of the EU, and that the sky would fall in. The majority of the electorate are thick - general election results show this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
I was leaning no, but was convinced by the failure of the Government not to give committments on workers rights, which would've balanced the free market elements. Several of the largest unions came out on this issue, including the one in which I'm an activist. For SIPTU to fail to back the Government in itself enough to convince me it had to be bad for the worker.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I also took into account the promises from the yes side pre Nice 2 in which they said that wages wouldn't be eroded by businesses exploiting immigrants. I wasn't going to fall for it again when they say that ordinary workers have nothing to fear from what is such a pro business treaty. We're behind even the Thatcherite UK in terms of workers rights, never mind the rest of Europe, on whose legislation this treaty was based.
I would generally pro europe, and would probably have voted yes it had had the social aspects that the likes of Youth Defence said it had. Unfortunately it was too much a business charter on the elements that would really effect us.
The coin landed on heads.
I couldn't say specifically, just after listening to a lot of debates on the subject a decision was kind of formed in my mind.
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Originally Posted by GavinZac
My point is that I was entitled to be given a copy of the Treaty at the polling station by the people working there ( I had that confirmed by the Dept of Enviro today), and they as State employess either weren't trained properly or weren't bothered. In essence for me that summed up the whole lazyness/ambiguity taken by the State in relation to this.
Thus for me it was the 'clincher' in terms of deciding, had nothing to do with being angry, but acted as the tipping point for what was for me a most difficult decision, as I know well that the Treaty isn't perfect but offers as many positives as negatives.
As an aside does anyone think that wording on the ballot paper might of been slightly confusing and some who wanted the treaty accepted might of voted 'no' thinking that would achieve a 'yes' ?
If it turns out to be a 'no' as seems likely based on early tallies, then maybe next time ( I firmly belive we'll be asked to vote again) hopefully the Govt and yes camp will make a real effort at explaining the positives rather than issuing threats etc.
I wonder will MyPost come on and criticise Calcio for his method of choosing considering his condemnation of Kingdom Hoop's method yesterday?
I voted No and betted on No , the french guy telling us how to vote when his own people were not given the choice was the turning point for me and a lot of voters.
Not a bad guess as I'm on the same bus route and pass through there everyday :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
With question above I was interested to know if any campaigners had an impact one way or the other.
If this is a No vote will be a very bad start for Brian Cowan. He won't have the option of Lisbon 2 either.
Who takes those jobs in the voting centres? I presume mainly teachers or just nosy people? ;)
If it's a 'no' my money is on there being another vote.. as for who takes the jobs...from my experience brain dead lazy people :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pete
My three year old son. Still undecided at 8.00pm last night I asked him, as he changed into his jimjams, what he reckoned ...Tá or Nil? He said Tá.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I said "Are you sure? ...coz it'll be your ass in a slit trench in the heathen East not mine". He said Tá ...his eyes and mind alight with wonder and the screams of Johnny Turk wriggling on the end of his bayonette.
State employees? Its random people off the street. They turn up every few years because they know someone and its an easy €400.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
There was a No box and a Yes box. People would have been going in to vote No or Yes. Tick as appropriate. It took me all of 30 seconds, and that included moving to the next booth as the pencil had broken.Quote:
As an aside does anyone think that wording on the ballot paper might of been slightly confusing and some who wanted the treaty accepted might of voted 'no' thinking that would achieve a 'yes' ?
Perhaps either side will, or perhaps people will not be swayed by ridiculous claims on posters (some of the Yes ones weren't inculpable of hysteria either) and will actually educate themselves before voting. Instead we have a situation where in conversation last night my parents told me they'd voted No because of fuel prices.Quote:
If it turns out to be a 'no' as seems likely based on early tallies, then maybe next time ( I firmly belive we'll be asked to vote again) hopefully the Govt and yes camp will make a real effort at explaining the positives rather than issuing threats etc.
I only mentioned as I did not care for old wan telling me her maiden name was the same as my surname. Serious job demarcation too - one person to read the card & one to operate the pen & ruler. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
Yes side is coming back strongly.
Anyone know do they open boxes in chronological order?
Reports of a last minute surge before polling closed last night should favour the yes side.
Bearing in mind the French have said as recently as last night that its dead in the water if there's a 'no' vote all indications point otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calcio Jack
RTE reports suggest that the Yes vote is gaining on No, **has mental pictures of Lionel Ritchie as the punter in Paddy Powers tearing up his 'sure thing' ticket and stomping on it before marching out to the sounds of Germans doing a jig** :)
Jig? I suppose its better than the goose-stepping they'll be doing on the way to the Belgian border if the Nays have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Beyond Faussaugh Avenue? Christ, there be dragons!Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
I've no doubt that a significent part of the 'no' was driven by the fact that many people are really p/off by the way the economy has turned during the last 12 monts and especially by the manner in which FF have started to renage on election promises... thus Cowen is been given a 'good kicking' by many people...not a logical way to vote but a very human way...but that's what you get when you let the 'little people' vote...a Totalatarian approach IMO might be worth considering for the good of the people.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Lucinda Creighton on RTE just basically said working class voters rejected the treaty because they were stupid racists and middle class voters didn't because they more astute.