Aye, ironically the LOI heads who appear to be largely v.change when they're the ones crying out for a 'strong' domestic league.
Whatever that is...
(As had been said umpteen times before, they mainly need to be consistently financially solvent and have better facilities in some cases).
Stutts and Edmund seem to be at least suggesting a viable sort of alternative?
yes, the fans identify very closely with the brands, but a key difference is that those brands don't compete with anything else and they're also pretty close to the top of the tree in terms of standard. Munster rugby fans haven't also been fans of Leicester Tigers or Northampton Saints over the years, with both playing at a Champions League equivalent that is un obtainable for Munster.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
You could create a Celtic League and it wouldn't get the buy in needed because it'd still be a poor relation to a European glamour league like the EPL and fans would continue to prefer Man U and the rest. This is my guess from a pure brand marketing perspective, but you've also got to factor in that any Celtic league creation would still struggle to match even League One in commercial terms. The Rabo League is maybe the 3rd biggest in the world. Its football equivalent might just about become the 4th biggest in UK and IRL. Would an inter county football league be sufficiently popular to generate much TV money?
I'm open to creative ideas but I don't see any merit in looking at GAA or rugby, though I do see a warning from rugby's current situation.
If UEFA was to rip up the traditional structure of European league football and have a pan-European system then I'd think creating a franchise club in Ireland could have merit, and I think the traditional national league structure and existing clubs could live underneath that. That ain't ever going to happen I reckon.
That would definitely ruin the international game in Ireland if that franchise team existed in Ireland and did well.
But perhaps there are Munster Rugby fans who also follow football (be it an LoI team or the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea etc) or other sports in general? A county* based football league wouldnt necessarily need to fear competition with Premier League orientated fans, indeed initially I think it would be unwise to try and go head-to-head (in terms of marketing) with the PL. While it isnt perhaps ideal, from the economic/marketing perspective you outline above couldnt a given/random fan support an LoI county team and also follow say Man Utd or Liverpool. There are some fans of LoI clubs who follow English teams and indeed there are fans of the Irish national team who also support an overseas club, even if it perhaps isn't ideal from some perpectives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
If the county approach was sucessful, the domestic league would probably pull in more of those EPL-oriented supporters. If say a fan from Limerick supported Limerick FC (hypothetically run as a nominally county club) and also supported Man Utd, over time if he saw that Limerick vs Cork matches had a certain dynamic (akin to All-Ireland matches) he might go to more Limerick matches and forgo the weekend trip(s) to Old Trafford.
Definitely, Paul?
sorry, I just don't agree. Our rugby provinces are the elite of the game. The best clubs in England are close to the European elite in standard and probably are elite in terms of brand appeal. Football is a global product market in large respects and the Irish are just as much of the EPL audience as the Far East.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
That said, a county-of-origin football tournament would be an interesting event to trial outside the LOI season. Given that many players aren't contracted to their clubs during the off-season, clubs might be powerless to object!
The danger with regionalising the EL, is while it looks like a viable option here in Northern/Western Europe, it is not without problems in other parts of Europe. For instance at the moment UEFA have a special ruling that Armenian and Azeri national teams (and Russian and Georgian) cannot be paired with each other. This is due to conflict issues (in fact a few years ago Armenia and Azerbaijan were in the same qualification group but both matches were cancelled as neither FA could guarentee the saftey of the opposition players). Similarly when Partizan Belgrade played Zrinjski Mostar (a Bosnian team which is followed a lot by Croatians in Southern Bosnia) back in 2007 there were huge riots and Partizan were kicked out of the competition (I think they were later reinstated), I think there were other problems when a Serbian (or maybe Montenegran) team played an Albanian team a few years ago. Teams from these countries arent drawn against each other that often at the moment but with regionalisation it would become inevitable, and in the long run (with all the extra policing and potential bans from the competition) these games could get expensive for the hosts without having big financial benefits (in terms of prize money the CL dwarfs the EL).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
The other problem is how do you carve up the map and leave each sub-region with a strong league (and so financially benefical tie). Most of the high profile leagues are in Western (or Central Europe). Why for instance would Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian FAs want to be paired up with say Finland and Poland when it would probably mean missing out on a big tie against a Spanish, German, Italian or English team? Sure you could put them in with Russia or even (at a push) Ukraine, but once you take Zenit, CSKA, Spartak, Shakhtar out (as they would probably be in the CL) they could end up playing Kuban Krasnodar or Amkar Perm, which mightnt be a desirable tie.
No, I think you have a good grasp of the situation. People who've put forward this guileless Cetlic League idea inspired by the rugby would do well to take a look at how that's all panning out now and realise that Irish rugby's place at the pinnacle of the club games was probably always going to temporary, and fair play to the provinces for maximising the development potential so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I wouldn't overemphasise the need to develop a coherent top-down structure in the league. Yeah, it would be nice but there are so many competing interests at work that the status quo might actually be no worse than the effect of taking on so many vested interests. The system we have is far from ideal but it still produces reasonably good outcomes. That said, I'm all for positive initiatives and investment in the domestic game.
Eh, what "trials and tribulations"? GUFC are being frozen out as a punishment. Sporting Fingal and Dublin City had no problem getting into the league the moment they showed up at Montrose with a suitcase full of cash. Which is basically what people who propose these sort of grandiose plans want: they want a multi-millionaire to show up and risk his own money in order to achieve the unlikely outcome they have deemed to be ideal.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
The GAA is the GAA - the inter-county rivalry is deeply-embedded in the structure of the game. It doesn't exist in rugby, let alone soccer or tiddlywinks, and you can't just impose it on top of a game 150 years in. Sorry, but your average soccer fan in Dublin couldn't give a **** if you're from Tipperary or Galway - you're from the country and that's it. Even within GAA, most Kerry football fans wouldn't be able to name you a county that's not on the road to Dublin, if even that. The ones who finished university might manage Mayo.
Look, you have a computer, don't you? Type up a business plan. You're going to need a few million euro from somewhere but otherwise you've got all the tools. Go out and conduct a survey - what would it take to get people to attend football games in Ireland. Do some research. Find out the costs. Source some donors. I'm sure Niall O'Dowd or Chuck Feeney could be convinced to get on board, or Michael O'Leary or some ********.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
You don't need to overhaul the entire structure of the league to try something out. What you do need, however, is a bit of support and unfortunately there aren't many people around who'll pay to watch a work in progress.
A county rivalry doesnt exist in Rugby because its played provincially (ie the 4 provinces, not 32 counties) the point is a geographic based rivalry does exist. Or do you think Munster v Leinster matches are not really rivalries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Exactly, you can't go halfway down a county league route with 2-3 county based teams and expect it to work - it has to be a centrally made decision by the FAI or forced out by some sort of Kerry Packer route (which is unlikely).Quote:
You don't need to overhaul the entire structure of the league to try something out. What you do need, however, is a bit of support and unfortunately there aren't many people around who'll pay to watch a work in progress.
Well a country rivalry doesn't exist in rugby because it was a club-based sport without the critical mass for county teams, but even so the inter-pro games weren't even yearly events until the last few years. The GAA organised itself around counties early on due to an ingenious and well-managed system of hierarchy which lent itself to the amateur ethos. Football has always been a professional or semi-pro sport so there was never the appetite to represent larger geographical entities.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
I'm sure the Leinster-Munster is a real rivalry for the people involved, but do you think non-rugby fans really identify with their province over the others? Even county divisions don't really have that much importance in everyday life.
Right, so the FAI pours millions into a hair-brained scheme with no guarantee of success rather than private individuals. Where's the incentive? Wouldn't this money be better spent on development rather than marketing schemes? We have a semi-professional game in this country. We can tear it all down and start again at massive cost for a small chance of success, or we can work with the structures we have an improve them.Quote:
Exactly, you can't go halfway down a county league route with 2-3 county based teams and expect it to work - it has to be a centrally made decision by the FAI or forced out by some sort of Kerry Packer route (which is unlikely).
The point is we have county-based teams. Some of them work (Sligo) and some have failed (Kildare). They're all based around county towns, but that's where the people are so duh. The ones that have succeeded have generally been because they have plenty of history and a real, long-term tradition of supporting local soccer (once again, Sligo) and those that have fallen by the wayside are those for whom the locals couldn't care a jot (once again, Kildare). The idea that this would somehow change if we reformed the structure of the league again is hopelessly naive.
I was at inter pro rugby games with 300 people at Donnybrook in the 80s. But sport is nothing without context. When Leinster and Munster are leading contenders to be Europe's best pro rugby franchises / clubs people care. I'm not sure football is capable of crossing the gap between representing your local audience and being of sufficiently high quality to be seen as something to attach to in a 'Basking in Reflected Glory' kind of way. Or rather, I'd be pretty sure it's not. I think the Irish need external validation for that.
And earlier I was thinking the same as CD. Football is run on a county or county town basis for all intents and purposes. There may be a couple of Dublin clubs not really standing for much, but most LOI clubs have a very identifiable catchment area that no amount of renaming or repositioning would do much to improve attachment.
It's not that simple though, for instance are Bray a county Wicklow team? The town is inside Wicklow county (and the stadium is just) but would someone from say Arklow feel a connection to them in the same way they might think Wicklow GAA represents them? Are Kerry, Mayo/Castlebar, and Clare that well served by LoI teams? Can Galway fans feel that much of an attachment to any team, when the traditional one (Galway United) has been disbanded and two recent, in LoI terms, teams have been ham-fisted into the league (Salthill and Mervue).
Some teams like Sligo and perhaps Limerick appear like county teams (more by accident rather than design) but I dont think you can compare them to the organisation and catchment of the GAA-County system.
No, Bray is in Dublin in all but name. It's arguable whether Wicklow GAA even represents the entire county - in terms of the bigger counties in Ireland, they're probably the only one that's never even threatened to win a provincial title. Wicklow is, and always has been, a satellite of Dublin.
Sligo might be a county team by accident but they nevertheless are a soccer team that started in a town and spread out to the environs. The fact they have never had a hierarchical county structure like in the GAA hardly delegitimises that, nor would scrapping Sligo Rovers and setting up a Sligo County club instead do anything to make them more of a county side.
You're missing the point. I'm not comparing any pan-county club to a GAA county. I'm saying they are fundamentally different and applying the GAA county mentality to soccer is futile.
Ah here now! You Shams fans are just fixing to be the biggest team in Wicklow. We're onto you! Now away back to Tallaght or we'll drop another wall on ye!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
The Europa league could be fine tuned.
One fine tuning aspect relates to the current format in the EL qual rounds where there is currently nothing to legislate against a small club from the westernmost parts of Europe being paired with a club close to Outer Mongolia.
Pats had to travel to Kazakhstan, an amateur club in Iceland had also to travel there, about a 24 hour round trip that has to be organised with very little notice.
The Uefa prize money is a pittance compared to that expense of a trip like that and the real sting in the tail is for the loser.
As it stands, the EL format could be more geographically gentler in the qual rounds, allowing clubs to at least make a handy profit in each round to pay other bills.
Of course this is what we need. And we can read a lot recently about leagues around europe who have invested the time and effort to make this happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
But in Ireland? Nah, we couldn't be bothered, and we don't want to wait, so set up a new league for us please.
We should do what they do in America and just invent a new league and sink hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money into it every couple of decades. We should be heartened by the fact they've finally got it semi-right at the 19th time of trying. This is a sustainable model in my opinion.
Yeah roll on another 20-30 years of an under-attended and under-achieving league that's stuck in a rut. I mean lets not consider making any major changes wouldnt want to rock the boat.
Weak weak strawman post.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Domestic football needs change at pretty much all levels, and a strong FAI to force it. I'm all for the major changes the I quoted from Stuttgart's post earlier. So is every other LOI fan. One of the great misrepresentations of LOI supporters is that they are happy with the league the way it is, and don't want changes/improvements.
But all of this can be done (and should be done, in my opinion) without what I think are fastasy notions of Celtic leagues or teams in the EPL, which are a short-term and short-sighted idea that don't address any of the underlying problems with domestic football.
Do you think nobody wants to make changes? Or do you think anything less than dumping the entire infrastructure and starting afresh regardless of the good work already being done counts as a change? Shamrock Rovers qualified for the Europa League a couple of years ago. Drogheda United got the width of a crossbar away a few years ago. Pats routinely go on European runs. Football in this country isn't in great shape but there is something there to work with. The idea that it's Munster Red Devils and Leinster Lions or bust is complete bunkum and disregards all of the achievements this league has made against considerable odds in recent years.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
I think there are two separate components to this debate:
(a) is there any "moral" obstacle to discarding the past? My own view is that we should be very careful about trampling on Irish clubs' rich histories but if we could be pretty confident that a new model would deliver a product with much more popular appeal and that is commercially attractive - and sustainable - I think it should be considered. I say this as a guy who has put in the long lonely miles on the LOI circuit in my younger days, not as a smug ROI block booker with a regular spot at the bar on Wednesday nights for the CL.
(b) the economic component: given the construct of European football, the lessons being taught by the current H-Cup scenario in rugby, and the sheer scale of commercial improvement required to even compete with the 3rd and 4th tiers of English football, is there really a viable "new model" out there? Bear in mind too that more money usually is accompanied by more risk-taking in football and Ireland doesn't really have a great track record in showing restraint and not getting up its own backside when things are going well! So I very much doubt the existence of a radical "new model". That makes component (a) largely irrelevant.
Also, any privately sponsored initiative (e.g., Platinum One) should be regarded with the highest degree of suspicion. What's in it for them versus what's in it for Irish football? We'd only be introducing another vested interest into the game when we need fewer.
Therefore I think we should probably work with what we have as the foundation.
GAA is also a club thing, first and foremost, the county thing would not work without the extensive club structure. In fact, the clubs run the county structure.
Dublin is an exception, supporters/cokeheads etc, bypass the bread and butter grind of the club structure to support the county team.
Soccer is about traditional club structure, traditional club rivalry, the League followed by the Cup. There's no chance of another creation supplanting that, it's possible that a Europa League structure can supplement the local league but then it's only a few clubs who have a chance to benefit.
When that european adventure is over, the club's board count the cents left in the till and back to grind of the league/cup.
Good point.
Also, are Irish rugby clubs altogether happy with the provincial franchises? I've heard friends at Terenure raise concerns.
Wouldn't you be closer to the talk on the rugby doorstep, than the most of us?
Great post that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I would love if those involved in underage football could agree on what needs to be done and listen to those that would appear to be doing it right. While I would advocate us learning from the continentals, there are a huge amount of really dynamic people out there in clubs around the country and whole leagues such as North Dublin who are doing things right. You would imagine that in the coming years, there will be far more technically gifted players coming through, as a result of their work. The best youths will be still lost to English clubs, but there will be a far higher standard of young players over here, that I would hope would have a knock-one effect on our club's performances in Europe.
Yes and no. A lot opf my mates are obsessed with Irish rugby but equally they think Irish rugby is created by God's own hand, free of any imperfection and a shining example of what Irish football can achieve if we only entered Leinster and Munster into the UCL (UEFA Champs League, not United Churches League). I'm not sure any of them have ever been to a AIL game. I regularly ask them where Leinster's clubhouse is.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Here's a snippet on the factions within FAI / schools set up.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29587192.html
It reminds me of the Life of Brian:
"We're the FAI Schools."
"I thought we were the Schools FAI?"
Lolz!: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24190407Quote:
Originally Posted by Sullivinho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWOvJj8AC18Quote:
West Brom 3-0 Sunderland: Paolo Di Canio faces fans
Manager Paolo Di Canio goes onto the pitch after Sunderland's 3-0 away defeat at West Brom to try and placate the angry travelling support.
The Italian boss gestures that the fans should keep their chins up but many seem to be blaming their new manager.
The defeat leaves Sunderland bottom of the Premier League with only one point from their opening five games.
Just proves the EPL is more of an international soap opera these days than the top tier of English football. If you saw that in WWE you'd think it was contrived.
Except DiCanio is an idiot (with fascist leanings) who Sunderland can't jettison soon enough...
True, but it still distracts from the football. And is Mourinho much different, apart from being a better manager? His histrionics in the dying moments of the Super Cup were just vanity / narcissism in the extreme. His team were clinging on to a lead and all he could think of was the TV exposure opportunity which he lapped up with relish.
Missed that. What did he do there exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Jose thinks that "You're So Vain" was written about him.
Moanihio just needs hundreds of millions to spend, to 'create' a team. And to be the centre of attention.
He makes RMK look like a wallflower...
Porto? Inter Milan? - rich clubs but not CL winners when he took overQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Waving his hands like a looney to get the Chelsea fans to sing, but you could see it was a clear attempt at playing for the cameras.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Madrid and of course his 'real, first love' currently, spring to mind. The small matter of spending a billion-plus quid...Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Heh, he was unlucky with both, wait till the end of the season as he might do it yet with Chelsea, haQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Alan Hansen praised Di Canio and his buffoonish antics as being "great value" on MOTD last night, which only supports your contention of EPL as soap opera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Di Canio's been sacked: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24199626
It was fun while it lasted...