Kazakhstan V Republic of Ireland - Friday, 7th September 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

Well at least we've got our luck back but that was dreadful. I dont buy the argument that Kazakhstan are some kind of burgeoning football power, by any measurement their national team and the league in which they all play is third rate.
Having said that away matches in places like that (why are they even in UEFA anyway?) are always potential banana skins when you think weve struggled against the likes of Liechtenstein and there no problem with a 2-1 result.
The performance was **** poor but I have doubts a new manager is going to turn around this shambles any time soon . It looks like Traps days are numbered but theres no point if they dont have any real quality candidate willing to replace him, and give the man credit for at least getting us in to a tournament and being less clueless than his predecessors of this millenium.
Great penalty btw, never had a doubt that was going to be put away.

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Originally Posted by Bungle

Absolutely terrible performance. So so predictible - long balls up to Walters all the time. I like Walters but even if he was world class, it wouldn't make a difference because the other team will always know what we're going to do. Having said that, I genuinely feared this game and I'm over the moon at the result. Delighted for Doyler and hope it marks an upturn for him, but right now, I'd still have Walters over him (if we could just be less predictible). Very concerned about O'Shea. I like Westwood and I'm pleased with O'Dea's ability to do a job when needed.

From viewing the Oman game as a pile of crap, I know would view it as a game where we can hopefully get Coleman and Wilson involved. I'd also like to start Long. Would be great to see Wes Hoolahan and Clarke involved, but that's being too ambitious of Trap.

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Similar in a way to Liverpools problem fitting Andy Carroll in. There is more to him than just a big target man, but it's hard for him to show that if the rest of the team insist on lumping the ball up the field towards him at every opportunity.

I think a lot of people underestimated Kazakhstan, they are a better team than many people think.
Spain for example played them recently and only beat them 13-0. :)
Germany's 17-0 win was largely down to a goal keeping error, he caught the wrong plane.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

I think a lot of people underestimated Kazakhstan, they are a better team than many people think.
Spain for example, played them recently, and only beat them 13-0. :)

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Had to Google that. It was a woman's game!

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Just watching the German v Faroes game first half and Germany look like a team a little short on confidence although winning 2-0. I thought a few of them choked in the Euros game against Italy. Get a new manager in who will almost certainly pick a completely different Irish team and give it a real go against them. As I mentioned in another thread I would go with
Westwood
Kelly JOS Dunne Wilson
McGeady McCArthy Meyler McClean
Walters/Doyle Long

Take off the straight jacket

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at least 8 of that team are regulars under trap.

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

Had to Google that. It was a woman's game!

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Lol, I see, I thought the results I were seeing were different from the ones I say earlier, that would seem to explain it.

Not sure why the women's results comes up first on google, must be a case of positive discrimination.

Anyway the drew with Austria recently who are in our group so they may actually help our campaign now.

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Originally Posted by EastTerracer

The RTE panel reaction is here

and Trap's interview is here

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Anyone else think the questioning in that interview was a bit much. Seemed to just be trying to **** him off

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Originally Posted by geysir

Looked like an out an out dive to get that free, maybe 5% push / 95% simulation.

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Looked like a dumb and needless challenge to me. Like many Duff won for us, legitimately, down the years. Duff made an art out of drawing dumb challenges. This guy was no Duff.

I think I've found the reason for Simon Cox's ineffective performance - he had been replaced by an imposter:

http://i50.tinypic.com/r1lk41.jpg

via the Daily Mail

Interesting...

Shocking. Dismal. Awful. And we won!
:(

Anyone think we'll scrape a win in the Faroes?

Right, thought I'd give myself a few hours to give my thoughts. Here it goes:

I said before this game that this was a huge game for Trappatoni. After that 90 minutes, what was a minority wanting him out of the job turned into a sizeable majority. The FAI should forget the result a delay the inevitable. Why wait 3 or 4 games down the line.

People will make the point that the FAI cannot afford to sack Trap. That is fairly true, but more what they cannot afford is an empty Aviva. Judging by this, even the Germany game will struggle to sell out, and if it does it's only because people will want to see a fantastic away team in action. Who in their right mind would pay 35/50 Euro to watch that scutter. I have slated stay away fans in the past but now I can't see why anyone would pay their hard earned money to watch that. If there was some sort of direction or long term goal that we were aiming for, fine, but we're not. It's just dour football being played without any cohesion, and 4 years into his reign is not going to change any time soon.

The game itself was probably the worst 90 mins under Trap, and that's saying a lot. Doyle bailed us out tonight. Whelan, JO'S, Keane, Ward and McGeady were all abysmal. Keane should give up his captaincy after tonight. He is not a leader, nor does he merit his place on the team anymore.

You have to try and play football, and we're not doing that. Hoofing it long from the defence and using Walters as a battering ram isn't football. And none of this **** from Trap about not having the players to do otherwise. Kazakhstan are ranked 142nd in the world and they passed the ball better than we did tonight.

What needs to happen is for players to play in positions that they are suited for (Walters, Cox, Long) and an encouragement to at least try and play a passing game. For 85 minutes tonight we didn't look like scoring against a ****e team. Not good enough.

And Sadlier made a show of Brady tonight. Stubborn clown.

And finally, McClean needs to cop himself on.

Holy Sh*t, was swamped at work all day, thought this one was in the bag anyway. Just reading back...must have been a hell of a game to watch in the pubs.
But a win is a win right?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

In fairness I thought it was a good goal. The defender was the right side of the goalscorer but it was a well delivered free and well met by the attacker before a defender could put pressure on him, and a well directed header. It was an utterly stupid free to concede though, junior league stuff.

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Allow me to finish that point for you.

And the cause of the Kazak goal, from an Irish point of view was? Wait for it.......you guessed it - Stephen Ward.

And if you also remember, we tipped off the ball was played to Ward, barely five seconds had elapsed and what does he do - hoof the first long ball on a day of a million long balls.

For my money, we should say goodbye to the following players now and start afresh

O'Shea (one of the worst players we have ever produced)
Ward (is not a Premier League, international or maybe even Championship level defender)
O'Dea (I actually think he played pretty well today - won every aerial ball - but against better quality opponents you know the rest)

Whelan (Bloody awful again today and slow as molasses - if Trap saw him as the pass master then his position has now been taken by the better James McCarthy)
Robbie (dare I say it but it might be time for him to go? It might not but he's getting mighty close. He doesn't have the legs anymore and I saw serious signs of resignation tonight before the goal)

Trap (as someone pointed out he's had a stay of execution) one more performance like this and hes gone

How can you honestly say JOSH is one of the worst players we ever produced Mark?

And since i cant go back and read all of this, how would everyone grade Westwood?

Weird question: Does anyone know what the song RTE are using for their football coverage intro is now?

Man, there was something about Trap in the O'Donoghue interview that I found genuinely hard to watch. It was like seeing someone berate their dear old grandad in public.

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Originally Posted by the doc

I also had €50 at 8-1 for a 2-1 win!
Plenty of gargle tonight! 😜

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You're not allowed to bet on games you play in... Tut tut tut.

Italy and Bulgaria just fecked up my 90/1 accumulator.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Looked like a dumb and needless challenge to me. Like many Duff won for us, legitimately, down the years. Duff made an art out of drawing dumb challenges. This guy was no Duff.

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The only possible contact was with Ward's hands, nothing that Ward did could have caused such a momentum with the fall.
After that, it was cráp defending for a run of the mill free kick.
Ward did everything right until the player dived, no one came close to assisting him out there, like every other team seem to manage when their full back is one on one.

It should also be mentioned that Ward got the assist for Doyle, laid it on a plate for him.

It's all well and good saying this or that player should be out of the team, but unless people have a plan for who would come and how we should play in it's just hot air. I think Trap needs to go away and come up with a new system, but the with the injuries/retirements there was always a chance it would look disjointed tonight. That's not to say it shouldn't have been a lot lot better by the way.

If everyone was available I think there is a strong chance Keane and Whelan might not have played, with McClean and Gibson taking their places. Trap seemed to be talking about McClean playing in the centre of the 3 AMs, which personally I would disagree with. I would love to see us give Coleman a game at right-back With McClean playing on the left of a 3. He seems to be dangerous in the air and would pose a real danger if Coleman could advance up the lone and play a cross to the back post.

For me what Trap might have been planning for this campaign is something like this

------------- Westwood ---------------
- O'Shea --- Sledge -- Dunne --- Ward -
---------- Gibson -- McCarthy ---------
-------Duff - McClean - McGeady ------
-------------- Walters ----------------

I'm still not entirely sure what formation we were playing tonight. The versions of 4-2-3-1 we are seeing more and more of rely on the 3 playing in central areas between the defence and midfield, with the 1 leading the line. Kazakhstan defended deep and en mass so whether it was supposed to be 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1, it turned into a de facto 4-2-4, and the supposed attacking midfielders ended up on the touchline to get space and time on the ball, which further encouraged the defenders to hit them with the long ball and it turned into a vicious cycle.

One example of where it didn't work for me was the full backs. In a 4-2-3-1 the full backs are generally supposed to provide the width and at least the threat of a dangerous cross or dribble up the wing. But neither Ward and O'Shea are capable of offering that. We have other options to replace O'Shea who perhaps could bring that, but at Left back Marc Wilson can't really bring that either, and after Ward who else is there?

The Oman friendly couldn't be more important. If the team above was Traps plan, it is probably time go back to the clean sheet of paper.

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Originally Posted by MeathDrog

Right, thought I'd give myself a few hours to give my thoughts. Here it goes:

I said before this game that this was a huge game for Trappatoni. After that 90 minutes, what was a minority wanting him out of the job turned into a sizeable majority. The FAI should forget the result a delay the inevitable. Why wait 3 or 4 games down the line.

People will make the point that the FAI cannot afford to sack Trap. That is fairly true, but more what they cannot afford is an empty Aviva. Judging by this, even the Germany game will struggle to sell out, and if it does it's only because people will want to see a fantastic away team in action. Who in their right mind would pay 35/50 Euro to watch that scutter. I have slated stay away fans in the past but now I can't see why anyone would pay their hard earned money to watch that. If there was some sort of direction or long term goal that we were aiming for, fine, but we're not. It's just dour football being played without any cohesion, and 4 years into his reign is not going to change any time soon.

The game itself was probably the worst 90 mins under Trap, and that's saying a lot. Doyle bailed us out tonight. Whelan, JO'S, Keane, Ward and McGeady were all abysmal. Keane should give up his captaincy after tonight. He is not a leader, nor does he merit his place on the team anymore.

You have to try and play football, and we're not doing that. Hoofing it long from the defence and using Walters as a battering ram isn't football. And none of this **** from Trap about not having the players to do otherwise. Kazakhstan are ranked 142nd in the world and they passed the ball better than we did tonight.

What needs to happen is for players to play in positions that they are suited for (Walters, Cox, Long) and an encouragement to at least try and play a passing game. For 85 minutes tonight we didn't look like scoring against a ****e team. Not good enough.

And Sadlier made a show of Brady tonight. Stubborn clown.

And finally, McClean needs to cop himself on.

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cant agree on Mcgeady. Along with mccarthy he was only outfield player who got on the ball won frees and put the ball into good areas

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Originally Posted by johnnyc

Man, there was something about Trap in the O'Donoghue interview that I found genuinely hard to watch. It was like seeing someone berate their dear old grandad in public.

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Someone else mentioned it earlier in the thread but I thought O'Donoghue's questioning was too aggressive and way out of line. Disgrace. Not surprising though considering he was peddling an anti-Trap agenda this morning on Morning Ireland. I'm disgusted at it. After a game like that is not the time to berate the manager.

In saying that Sadlier was spot on with his comments generally. Though I can't see who we would replace Trap with.

I still think we should get through the Germany game and have a period of reflection because, let's be honest, if we get a point out of it it will be a wonder. And no manager will change that.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Why O'Shea wasn't at centre-half? He's a Premier League centre-half. The same cannot be said of either St. Ledger or O'Dea.

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That's a great point, but i have to say that O'Shea is useless at centre back without Richard Dunne beside him. O'Shea just doesn't have the leadership skills to boss a younger centre half, he's too nice. Also, just because a player is playing at a higher level doesn't always mean that he is a better player (though it usually would mean this). Just look at LOI players that made the move across the water (Doyle, Long, Fahy, McClean etc) -were they bad players when they played in the LOI?

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Doyle and Long impressed. I thought Walters would be a better option than Doyle due to club form. Doyle put that to bed emphatically.

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I agree. It was worth trying Walters and it looked like a master stroke for the first 15mins. To be fair, Doyle looked that bit better because he had more energy coming off he bench AND he had a point to prove because he was dropped. I think Doyle needed to be dropped to get him fighting for his place again.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Also, do people still believe that Trap picks players on the basis of how they have performed under him for Ireland in the past because he feels it is the best selection policy? Or is it because he doesn't bother to watch the Premier League to see Shane Long is playing better and at a higher level than, arguably, all the other strikers?

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See below.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Fair play to Richie Sadlier, whatever you think of what he's saying, he has no problem with harrying Liam Brady when he feels Brady needs to justify some point he has made. Respect and all Brady deserves, if he's going to hold back his criticism on Trap then he needs to state why.

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You could see that Brady didn't like Sadlier. I guess Trap is a friend of Brady's and he wouldn't like to see him sacked. Sadlier is a great man for proposing managers to get the sack. There's also the fact that Sadlier achieved feck all in the game compared to Brady, Giles and Trappatoni.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Trap's english is hardly as bad as it was in that interview. Tony O'Donoghue asked him had he taken this team as far as he could. Trap had the question interpreted, whether he understood the crux of the question he decided to ignore it and answered that this team can be better, similar to as it was against Serbia. A cop out. There was also an early moment in which O'Donoghue referred to change and alteration in tactics and personnel. Trap seemed to half-comprehend the question also and said something like he won't change, and he changed in the second half to bring on Doyle.

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Traps english is appalling. I did feel embarrassed on TOD's behalf, he seemed to be forced to ask the really tough questions that the panel are going on about. I liked Trap's answers though and he did seem to say that he got the starting XI wrong (and he said he based it on club form), but that he corrected it by way of substitutions (which he did).

I also agree with Liam Brady and think that Kazakhstan are MUCH better than 142nd. They WILL cause problems for other teams.

We are not as good as we think we are either.

Interesting article on the ESPN site with comments from Paul McGrath. this was written before the game. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns...attoni?cc=5901

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

this is from the RTE site
The following stream of consciousness/freestyle poetry explanation comes from Giovanni Trappatoni (did our best with transcription)

Yes the first time was not spirit...was strange...other situation...that is the first game...the approach is important...you couldn’t change the players...we achieved the result... the long ball.. the long ball with Keane.. very important...also me... I no happy...today was away game...I am happy because we achieved the result...now at the moment is important is only the result.

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Yeah, but we all know what he means......! :D :confused:

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

Weird question: Does anyone know what the song RTE are using for their football coverage intro is now?

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Mission Impossible theme tune?

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Originally Posted by liamoo11

cant agree on Mcgeady. Along with mccarthy he was only outfield player who got on the ball won frees and put the ball into good areas

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I thought for a while that McGeady was one of our better players, however, he always took too long to cross the ball AND he always crossed it at head hight. Their goalkeeper was excellent in the air as were their defenders so we were not likely to score that way. In contrast, look at our first goal -Doyle broke at pace and crossed first time AND at a more difficult height to defend (lower). I still agree though that he was one of our better players.

Westwood was my man of the match (of the starting XI). I've always maintained he he is/was a better keeper than Given who was only ever a really good shot stopper. Given never came off his line to dominate the area -Westwood does. Just look at the goals we conceded in the Euro Finals from 6 yards and compare that to how Westwood came out to claim crosses tonight. even the Kazakhstan keeper was dominating his penalty area too.

Highlights here in the Irish news broadcast, available in UK so I presume worldwide, starts at about 13.45.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=10046546

For the Stephen Ward knockers it is his knock down which leads to the winning goal.

So as in insurance, criticism and praise go on a knock for knock basis.

Obviously Kevin Doyle made a huge impact on the game, I have never really been a big a fan of Kevin as some on here
but he has certainly gone up in my estimations after that, people always say he works hard but unless there is an end
product to that work I tend not to notice it.

Could he be the new impact sub or he is back to a must start now?
His hard work may be more productive against tired legs.


Also who played the ball in to Ward and why does the 'press esc to exit full screen' remain there permanatly,
or does that just happen to me? (I doubt that though).

Anyone else get the feeling that there was a lot of people disappointed we didn't lose this match as winning it bluntens their anti-Trap ammo?

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

Anyone else get the feeling that there was a lot of people disappointed we didn't lose this match as winning it bluntens their anti-Trap ammo?

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I didn't see the game as it was the middle of the night here in Japan.

But having read the posts in this thread, even though there are plenty of posters on here who feel there is an anti-Trap agenda, I don't see any of them viewing the performance as anything other than a black mark for the manager.

I get the impression that the performance didn't exactly answer his critics, or do anything to 'blunten their anti-Trap ammo.'

we've had moral victories before, is this the first moral defeat?

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

we've had moral victories before, is this the first moral defeat?

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San Marino, February 2007.

Regardless of the 3 points, that performance was dire and I have 0 confidence in us coming 2nd in the group, ourselves and Austria will have a tight enough tussle for 3rd methinks. Very much a black mark for Trap.

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

San Marino, February 2007.

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maybe, but we weren't behind in that game

Sweet divine Jesus.

Others have covered the main points already, but my tuppence worth (to vent, basically) -

I don't think anyone's really mentioned that Kazakhstan played fairly well. Certainly way above their ranking and previous results. Mayn't trouble the top two, but deserve credit for how well they played.

Westwood played well; two vital saves and not much he could do for the goal. That and Doyle's intervention are about the only positives.

I'm fairly sure the point of the 4-3-3 formation is that the left forward plays left wing when the ball goes down the left, and in the centre when the ball goes down the right. Still, Walters, Cox, Doyle and Long on the wing is just bizarre. McGeady was abysmal again; falling over himself trying a little Cruyff turn on the by-line. Had to laugh when I saw someone compare him to Duff in his prime on this thread. I don't know what game people do be watching at times.

I've been on the fence on the Trap issue; I'm definitely heading into the anti camp now. First campaign good if dull. Second campaign not as good but successful. Now, particularly with Given and Duff gone, we're going downhill even further. When Kazakhstan outplay us technically, the notion that we have to respect our limitations goes out the window.

Germany are going to hammer us. The Faroes away is a real banana skin now (they've beaten Kazakhstan twice). I've had enough of the caveman football.

Also have no real problems with the O'Donoghue interview. Trap is a big boy and is getting paid plenty of money; he should answer for himself. Tired of hearing vacuous post-match interviews (in fact, Giles commented on that after the Super Cup Final).

Would agree with much of that, fair play...

I would like to give my 2 cents here lol.
:(
Sorry. Did we lose?

Read the thread?

There is a positive way of looking at this, it could be argued that we turned the corner in the last 5 minutes and are now on the up, I saw an improvement late on the game, so much so that I was inspired to put 50p on us winning 3 minutes from time!! Not sure if I have already mentioned that ;)

PS' first point is the most pertinent of all. Kazakhstan were underestimated, completely. Ireland has truly re-attached onto the British "mainland" as I read sneering, belittlement and un-informed snide remarks about the opposition. This, aligned with the anti-O'Brien camp which is lower than the red top bile on the mainland, has skewed the debate. We have a mixed bag of players, few of any great international worth, playing in average teams, in overblown leagues (if they're playing at all) and I'm hearing/reading people wishing we'd lost! Jesus, does anyone remember what it was like before 1988? Horrific nonsense. Poor performance as the players showed their true colours - they've (for the most part) had zero technical/skill development, or this has been bred out of them, and we're going to have more of the same so long as we do nothing about the situation in Ireland. Every Kazakh player could trap, pass and appear comfortable on the ball, this isn't down to the current manager, it's down to years of training and development. We should have this, but we're not allowed.