So, what's their relevance to Gibson in that case?
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So, what's their relevance to Gibson in that case?
That they all made choices to withdraw from selection. It's pretty clear really.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
You can't ask a player to skip a game he's fit for just so he can be potentially sit on the bench for a game the following week. It's madness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
I don't believe anyone did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Incomparable choices. Wasn't your implication that all mentioned withdrawals could be viewed in a similar light to Gibson's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Bert van Maarwijk could be a good shout. He was very impressive in qualification for Wc 2010 and Euro 2012, in tournaments he did very well in South Africa, getting them to the final. Euro 2012 was a stinker for his side though.
That's your opinion. They're similar in the fact that they all made choices. We can all compare and judge them how we like.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
But you admitted yourself that Joey O'Brien "doesn't really have a choice due to the limits of his body and the fact that he has to earn a livelihood". He clearly doesn't enjoy the luxury of unrestrained choice that Gibson does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Of course they didn't, because common sense prevailed. Yet you'd say he put his club before his country, when in fact all he was doing was playing football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
He doesn't really have a choice because his club is his one and only viable choice. I'm sure Gibson could argue that he had little choice either, rather than the 'luxury of unrestrained choice' that you put it as. Maybe he is to stubborn like he admitted but he might see it as giving in and therefore damaging to his psychological well-being if he gave in.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Again totally disingenuous and misleading. In the previous post you took two quotes in 'plain English' and misread them to make a redundant zero sum rebuttal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
But in this post you've referred to just one quote (which you got right), conviently left out the other and completely ignored the actual substance of what I wrote in my last post - like you've ignored pretty much everything else I've written today. Either respond to the substance of my points or stop trolling.
Yes, for his club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I'm not misreading anything. It's there for all to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
There's been a bit of over-lap between threads since the loss to Austria and Trap's departure, so I'm not sure if yous saw it, but I posted the following in the "Ireland-Sweden" match thread which could be seen as a response of sorts:Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Do we genuinely have the ability to consistently compete with the more technically-proficient sides though? A team like Croatia will always be favourites in a game between themselves and ourselves. Qualification will always be more likely for them than it is for us. I use them as a standard or as an example of where we could be with some astute organisation as we share similar populations but they make such a better job of the resources they have available to them.
I suppose what I'm saying is that things could be a lot better than how they are now where we're talking about merely competing with second or third-seeded teams. Can't we hope of consistently beating them some day? It sounds a bit clichéd, but last time we beat a team ranked above us in a competitive game?...
Obviously, I'm not saying we can be Spain or Germany, but we could at least give ourselves a better chance than what we offer ourselves at present.
Someone mentioned it earlier, Stan beating Slovakia.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Had overlooked that, for some reason. It seems you're right; we were ranked 51st in March of 2007 and Slovakia were ranked 37th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Why is the Holland game in 2002 often cited as the last time we beat a higher-ranked opponent in a competitive fixture?
Edit: Holland game was in 2001, of course.
It's because they were a top 2 seed. There was a piece floating around the other day on how ineffectual we have always been against the 1st & 2nd, 2nd & 3rd or 1st & 3rd seeds throughout the last 25 odd years of qualifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Yes, his managers both agreed that the best place for him to play would be his club. He has numerous serious knee injuries, injuries that aren't helped by sitting on a plane unnecessarily. The management clearly decided that he wasn't the right fit for this international but if he kept playing football and managed his injury that he was still in the frame. You've attempted to spin this as an example of O'Brien choosing his club over his country similar to Gibson or Given when it is patently untrue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
To salvage something from a heartbreaking amount of time wasted on Gibson, I'm wondering - is there anyone currently considered in exile you wouldn't want back?
The slate should be wiped clean for everyone, I feel, although as aforementioned (ad nauseum) I'll always have reservations about Gibson. Still he gets a couple of years under his belt trouble free, and plenty would be forgiven and forgotten.
What about Stokes? Would you have Andy Reid back in the squad? Ireland?! I'd have thought Stevie's blown it simply because he ain't that good, no matter how paltry our resources.
If (big if) a manager was in place for Germany, it'd almost be like unearthing new players to see Gibson, Joey O'Brien et al in the squad and given active roles.
I don't think there's anyone I wouldn't have back in principle. On form, Ireland is definitely out and S Reid and Gibson's chronic injury situations mean they're very much in the maybe pile.
I didn't even include Steven Reid because I can't see him managing the extra playing load on top of his injuries. Besides would he even be considered a midfielder anymore and do we need him as an RB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Is Gibson now a chronic injury case? He does pick them up though I hadn't gone that far in my thinking.
I agree with most of what you say on this matter except I classify it ultimately as club over country. Disagree all you want but you are not God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I haven't looked it up, but I'm reasonably sure Gibson has been injured for all, or most, of the international windows since he decided he wouldn't play for Trap. Granted, so had Pilkington until last week, but Gibson seems to be further into the chronic stage. He's missed large chunks of the last three seasons, including the first months of the past two.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I could be god, you don't know that. But, yeah, I guess we'll agree to disagree but I think you are failing to see the shades of grey here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
looks like the MON meeja love in is about to come to fruition. Nice, intelligent man, but we can forget about nice football and a removal of player conflict. But if that happened there'd be nothing to comment on. Ads don't sell themselves.
Has Gibson been injured for all? I'd thought there might have been one or two squads where it was expected he'd be available. I don't think he was injured when we played England at the end of May. He was on his stag-do in Marbella at the time, if I recall correctly. Not that that proves he wasn't injured, mind, and I am open to correction on it. Regardless, it's not as if he'd have accepted a call-up anyway as it seems he was intentionally avoiding any of Trap's attempts at communication.
Indeed, Slovakia were a pot three team for Euro 2008 qualifying whilst we were in the fourth pot. Interestingly, just looking back, the Czechs were top seeds and Germany were in pot two then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Wasn't Darwin the undoing of God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Tbf, Irwin comes out on top here. Mildly surprised to see him taking on the Doire boys, who're a formidable combination. But with even the Irish soccer team, shocks do happen...
Rather like the Irish soccer team in their better Trap days, Irwin's refusal to read the writing on the wall/screen made him tough opposition to break down. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Not sure where else to put this, but there has been some discussion on the 'Belgium' method - but interesting piece by Rory Smith says it's no guarantee and every country needs a large slice of luck for a golden generation to emerge.
Well exactly. Belgium are as 'cyclical' as us. Prefer the example of Denmark as an 'aspiration'...
The frustrating thing is how polar opposite opinions and ideas seem to be. If you criticised Traps style it's suggested that Ireland don't have the players to play like Spain or play free flowing attacking football. Who said we did? I don't expect Ireland to be Spain but , I believe, that it's a reasonable enough expectation to pass the ball a couple of times on the ground. Maybe have a little bit more of a measured approach to attacking while still being a hard team to break down. No doubt I believe our approach should be that we are hard to beat but we do have players, played in a different system, to both attack & defend reasonably well. Inope the new man can utilise what's available to us, which I believe is more than what Trap suggested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by back of the net
Strangely enough both might make it to the world cup yet!:eek:
They won't. Even though it'd be ace if they did.
Cape Verde banished for fielding an illegible player unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Dan McDonnell just tweeted a reported quote from Mick McCarthy saying O'Neill is 'nailed on' and 'a shoo-in' for the job. This could be dusted in record time.
I'd agree with MO'N as manager at this point in time. There's an underground type movement who would like to see Mick McCarthy return to manage Ireland but I would say not right now.
I'm not wholly convinced. Rather than some mysterious or unhidden hand playing its part in your fortunes, I think you make your own "luck". Some wisened young Roman put it best when he said, "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity". I think Smith almost paraphrases in a footballing context and goes some way towards admitting this in his penultimate paragraph:Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
That is not to suggest there is nothing that can be done. The conditions must be created to allow those players to shine should they arrive.
Besides, I'd rather our ambitions and achievements weren't dependent or reliant on this "luck". We can sit back and dream about being due a fat slice of it, and a golden generation to boot (or our solitary once-in-a-score world-class player, even...), or we can ensure that we organise the Irish game and prepare our footballers properly en masse. The latter approach will always prove more fruitful and likely to breed success. There is no cycle; we're two decades behind the heavyweights and will simply be left further behind as more and more associations follow suit. "Luck" certainly won't be making up the lost ground for us.
Isaac Cuenca, Cristian Tello and Martin Montoya may not be of the quality of Xavi or Iniesta in the eyes of Smith, but it's a sure bet they'll still be exceptionally competent footballers. If a progressive framework can't guarantee winning the World Cup, it can at least guarantee a team's competitiveness and ensure they'll never plummet down the rankings to 59th again. The idea of putting in place what would essentially be a lower threshold buffer line, whilst also giving us a much better chance when opportunity does fall our way, is worth taking very seriously.
Foley from the ashes?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
More seriously, I do agree with you though. If a player can perform a functional role for us, let him do his talking on the pitch. How footballers live - and it must be remembered they are also human and share the same flaws as the rest of us - or what they get up to in their private lives is their business. If they're willing to do learn from the past and put themselves forward to do a job for us on the pitch, I'm happy to support that. Stephen Ireland's apparent nonchalance used to irritate me, but, over time, sympathy has become an over-riding feeling when I think about his circumstances.
So, it looks like we're going to have MO'N in charge?
Some have been saying he pays a negative style of football. I'm not sure it's negative, more direct, no? I know Celtic fans felt there was a lack of style in the team and this was probably true in the latter part of his tenure.
A few things stand out for me about O'Neill:
A bit like Trap he is a "system" manager, but he has employed different systems including 3 at the back.
He always bought players to fill a specific role in his systems. He'll have to make do with what he can pick for us.
He likes a big 9. Can Long, Doyle, Walters do the role he had historically trusted to Sutton, Marshall at Leicester, Hartson, Heskey or Carew?
He genuinely values width and he had some good wide players at Celtic in particular.
He has always got the best out of workmanlike centre backs.
Unlike Trap he does seem to trust talented midfielders. Moravcik and Maloney did well under him, and Miller (when not in a flat midfield 4) played his best football of his career.
Home was a fortress at Celtic, both in Scotland and Europe. Apart from 2003, European away form was awful.
In his first title successes he was a master at eeking out narrow away wins at tricky places.
Players are very loyal to him and I believe he's an extraordinary motivator.
After Mourinho's first season at Chelsea (2003?) I stuck up a new thread in World Football comparing the two. If anyone can dig it out I'd be interested. I'll have a go myself later but I'm stuck for time now. I think a lot of what I wrote might be out of date now, but I have to admit I didn't really study his style at Villa or Sunderland.
I have some concerns but by and large I think it's exciting and he'll give a real shot in the arm to the set up.
I also wonder in xx years will we look at his appointment as what started a shift to a 32 county team? Or will it create a bigger divide?
This looks like it: http://foot.ie/threads/21300-Mourinh...ill?highlight=Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
He's a universally-popular figure across the island, but it'd be interesting to know what NI fans make of what will be our most audacious poaching attempt of them all. :cool:Quote:
I also wonder in xx years will we look at his appointment as what started a shift to a 32 county team? Or will it create a bigger divide?
NB or GR; any idea what the general mood is like amongst OWCers?
Thanks Danny. So basically I just rehashed a lot of what I wrote in 2005! Of course I should have added the bit about teams managed by each being renowned for set pieces.