Roy Keane

Maybe he was a lousy captain off the pitch but I think that's common among captains. It should be the managers duty to lead them off the pitch in the first place, anyway in my opinion.

Players of his standard are often incredibly ambitious and often times insatiable because they're never happy with what they have, they always want more success, to be bigger and better.

Vieira was the same, complete tool off the pitch, one of the most inspirational leaders the premiership has ever seen off it.
Zidane was a coaches nightmare because he never took orders from anybody but himself, yet was one of the greatest players and leaders of all time.

I think it's too much to ask for a driven, ambitious, dominating leader on the pitch to be a friendly, reasonable fellow off it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think we'd have been up against it against S. Korea myself. They were better at that tournament than people think.

---

Korea had more than luck on their side in that WC lads dont forget :D

can i ask a genuine question here, why is it that most of Keano's most vociferous haters on here, are Dubs. Seems to be a trend outside here too. If your talkign abotu Saipan in a group and you have a gang of lads from all over the country chances are you will get a 50/50 split, but bring in a gang of jackeens and invariably, they will in the vast majority be of the taxi driving anti keane type. What is that?????:confused:

"Maybe he was a lousy captain off the pitch but I think that's common among captains"

Spot on! Tony Adams anyone!!!

Tony Adams who turned his life around big time. I've nothing but respect for him now. A very thoughtful & reflectful person.

I couldn't give 2 hoots where Keane is from. If he was a Dub I'd be every bit as critical of his role in Saipan.

I'm not a Keane-hater by any means, I just don't see how he can be placed on such a high pedestal by so many. Amazing footballer, very flawed character.

Duff said that young players "trod on eggshells around him". Keane slipped off on an early morning flight to Manchester after the Iran game in Dublin without wishing the squad luck. I'm not saying he should be godfather to all the players' kids, but the above are poor examples of captaincy in my view.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Tony Adams who turned his life around big time. I've nothing but respect for him now. A very thoughtful & reflectful person.

---

No doubt, but at the peak of his powers, he was a great captain on the pitch, and a terrible one off it :) See my point?
As were people like David Campese, Michael Irvin and John McEnroe

What other captains have done or did not do is an irrelevant issue.
Keane's actions are judged from an Ireland context.
Stutts is spot on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennocelt

yeah but when the FAI dont even organise a decent place to stay and train, etc then i think quite frankly you can shove your nationalism up your balls (as the great man might say himself!):)

---

What do you expect from a pig but a grunt!
By the way. Some people are talking about glorifying in Ipswich's dilemena. Its nothing that 50million cant solve, ala Sunderland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

No doubt, but at the peak of his powers, he was a great captain on the pitch, and a terrible one off it :) See my point?
As were people like David Campese, Michael Irvin and John McEnroe

---

Your point about dubs is nonsense absolute rubbish. I am both respect and admire Mc Carthy and Keane and I grew up in Dublin. To say Dubs are Keane haters is getting into generalisations that cannot be backed up by fact whatsoever. Fact is there are over 1 million Dubs so they do stand out in Ireland.

Also Football is probably the biggest sport and lots of schoolboy football in Dublin etc. So football is massive in Dublin that maybe its not so massive in other counties as was shown by the terrible attendances in Thomond.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

What other captains have done or did not do is an irrelevant issue.
Keane's actions are judged from an Ireland context.
Stutts is spot on.

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_Guttmann

Between 1921 and 1924 Guttman also played six times for Hungary, scoring on his debut on June 5 1921 in a 3-0 win against Germany. Later in the same month he also played against a Southern Germany XI. His remaining four appearances all came in May 1924 in games against Switzerland, Saarland, Poland and Egypt. The latter two were at the Olympic Games in Paris. During the preparations for the competition Guttmann objected to the fact that there were more officials than players in the Hungary squad. He also complained that the hotel was more suitable for socialising than match preparation and to demonstrate his disapproval he hung dead rats on the doors of the travelling officials.

Interesting story Neil, Guttman was not a captain.
Neither was Paddy Mulligan in bungate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

"Maybe he was a lousy captain off the pitch but I think that's common among captains"

Spot on! Tony Adams anyone!!!

---

Those dubs are hard figure out alright an_ceannaire. No innocent country honesty about them at all. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Your point about dubs is nonsense absolute rubbish. I am both respect and admire Mc Carthy and Keane and I grew up in Dublin. To say Dubs are Keane haters is getting into generalisations that cannot be backed up by fact whatsoever. Fact is there are over 1 million Dubs so they do stand out in Ireland.

Also Football is probably the biggest sport and lots of schoolboy football in Dublin etc. So football is massive in Dublin that maybe its not so massive in other counties as was shown by the terrible attendances in Thomond.

---

I thought for a minute there you were making a point Neil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_Guttmann

Between 1921 and 1924 Guttman also played six times for Hungary, scoring on his debut on June 5 1921 in a 3-0 win against Germany. Later in the same month he also played against a Southern Germany XI. His remaining four appearances all came in May 1924 in games against Switzerland, Saarland, Poland and Egypt. The latter two were at the Olympic Games in Paris. During the preparations for the competition Guttmann objected to the fact that there were more officials than players in the Hungary squad. He also complained that the hotel was more suitable for socialising than match preparation and to demonstrate his disapproval he hung dead rats on the doors of the travelling officials.

---

Where would one acquire dead rats? Nice anecdote all the same though.

The point which is probably above your head is that to groupe peoples opinions on saipan based on where they come from is rubbish. It probably says more about the poster and his relationship with people from Dublin than anything else.

Well said Neil, its like standing in goal(soccer or gaelic goals), when the ball goes in over yer head, nothing more embarassing. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

The point which is probably above your head is that to groupe peoples opinions on saipan based on where they come from is rubbish. It probably says more about the poster and his relationship with people from Dublin than anything else.

---

I can see why my ill-judged post would make you think that Neil :o But you could not be more wrong! Was born in St James' and raised in Kilnamanagh!! Moved to Limerick in secondary school
Anti-Dubs i am not!!! As my wardrobe with TWELVE Arnotts jerseys/polo shirts would prove!!!

Well fair play ceannaire but then I am surprised at your "ill judged post". Saipan is very boring at this stage and I have not seen one person change their views on it since it started but to think that our views on this issue are based on where we grew up is madness in my view.

Anyway as I said before, Roy Keane like a mid 30s female cosmo reader was not happy with the foreplay and Mick Mc Carthy was all about the main event.

I find it very sad when I see Irish fans slagging off one of our best players of all time, and willing him to fail in his managerial career. Without wishing to open up the whole Saipan debate again, I think we can all agree that both McCarthy and Keane were both at fault to some extent - McCarthy should have had a private meeting with Keane about his comments in the Irish Times, and not pulled him up about it in front of the whole team; Keane should have issued an apology for his comments, and got on with captaining his country during the World Cup.

However, whatever your views about Saipan, there is no way we would have qualified for 2002 without Roy Keane. He was immense in every game in that qualifying group (with the exception of Iran at home), especially against Portugal and Holland at home. There would have been no Saipan without Roy Keane as we would have been sitting at home watching the finals like we normally are.

I find it amazing that most of the anti-Keane brigade that I speak to would all have Stephen Ireland back in our team tomorrow. They were all calling Keane a traitor back in 2002 for walking out on his country, yet they will all bend over backwards to get Ireland playing for us again, even though he's never come out with any valid reason as to why he's not interested in playing for his country again. Very strange. Good luck to Roy Keane and Mick McCarthy and anyone else who has served us so well in their future careers.

I am bit confused Fitzy. Your last point, says most of the anti keane brigade and then uses terms like they were all calling Keane a traitor and they will all bend over backwards.

I have found that those that I speak to who are or were anti Keane are even more anti Stephen Ireland. I think a lot of the fans who travel all over the world supporting Ireland and have done for years, felt hurt and insulted by Keanes actions, and the same feelings are felt in relation to Stephen Ireland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

to think that our views on this issue are based on where we grew up is madness in my view.

---

I generally agree with your posts Neil as I find them balanced and you are anti extremes in relation to almost everything. However, I do think Geography has a major role to play in the Saipan debate. Between Geography and the whole Liverpool/Man U allegence I find that a huge percentage will sway accordingly. Man U fans in Cork will for the most part be pro Keane. Liverpool fans outside Cork will be anti Keane. Don't think it's a Dublin issue particularly and I'd imagine they would be fairly divided, often determined by which club one supports, like the rest of the country ex Cork. Of course there are also plenty of level headed people who will base it on Saipan, and nothing more.

I don't know about that Fitzy.

Roy was welcomed back to the Irish team under Brian Kerr.
Before that, opinion was divided on his return, in what proportion I am not sure.Vast majority of fans appreciated to have Roy back on the pitch giving his all.Our thoughts are for the best chances for the team as a functioning unit.
I think a similar latitude was offered by fans to Stephen Ireland.

If Roy just let the Saipan issue go, we would not be talking about it now,
therefore it is Roy's fault:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeLorean

I generally agree with your posts Neil as I find them balanced and you are anti extremes in relation to almost everything. However, I do think Geography has a major role to play in the Saipan debate. Between Geography and the whole Liverpool/Man U allegence I find that a huge percentage will sway accordingly. Man U fans in Cork will for the most part be pro Keane. Liverpool fans outside Cork will be anti Keane. Don't think it's a Dublin issue particularly and I'd imagine they would be fairly divided, often determined by which club one supports, like the rest of the country ex Cork. Of course there are also plenty of level headed people who will base it on Saipan, and nothing more.

---

Ok I give you the Liverpool Man Utd thing and Cork, but I have seen no evidence other than that. The LIverpool and Man Utd thing in Ireland is bizarre anyway, calling each other Mancs and Scousers and they both grow up in the same estate in Artane or Cloghleigh.

I think a really sad factor in the Irish support now is that a lot of the fans who "came of age" in the mid 90s relate to MUFC or Liverpool first, Ireland second. It's totally ludicrous how they let their club allegiances affect their support of Ireland.

That said, my brother is a Liverpool fan and he came down heavily on Keane's side post-Saipan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

......I have found that those that I speak to who are or were anti Keane are even more anti Stephen Ireland. I think a lot of the fans who travel all over the world supporting Ireland and have done for years, felt hurt and insulted by Keanes actions, and the same feelings are felt in relation to Stephen Ireland.

---

Spot on NeilMcD. Exactly right

Yep, agree to that

Wonder is it too soon to ask Whoopi Goldberg has she seen Patrick Swazye yet......;)
I know I know........
Sorry!!
Keano Rules..........!!

Neil, I'm only talking from my experiences in London with regards to Keane & Stephen Ireland. Everyone I spoke to over here in 2002 were all slagging off Roy Keane, it was almost impossible to find anyone who thought there was fault on both sides, or who was in Keane's camp. The same people are all desperate for Stephen Ireland to come back, despite the way he has messed everyone about, and some of them are even blaming Trap for not doing enough to persuade him to come back. At least Keane got us to the 2002 World Cup, Stephen Ireland will probably never play for us again.

Fair enough, Fitzy but must say I have not come into contact with anybody who has those views which to me and you seem like a contradiction anyway.

anyone remember that infamous interview Dunphy gave to the BBC? Ray Stubbs being the interviewer. I remember watching it with the 2 uncles who were staunch McCarthy-ites and it was funny to watch them cos u could see they were struggling with their conscience. On one hand they were anti-roy, but listening to Stubbs basically make a buffoon and criminal of our best player on British TV nearly pushed them twoards the light!!! I remember Dunphy coming to within an inch of telling Good Ol Ray to f**k off live on the beeb. Now that WOULD have been hilarious!
The reporting from Britain was scandalous. You would think to listen to them at the time that the country was 100% anti-keane! They totally went with the "people turn on keane" angle and totally ignored the fact that up 50% of Irish people were Pro Roy!!! The when Paul McGrath actually made that point on "your on sky sports" Peter Beagrie and Steve Claridge nearly fell off the chair in aghast and shock!!!

Most of my mates think about the Irish team about 4 times a year max. They think (a) we're crap (b) S. Ireland is brilliant so (c) we'd be brilliant if we had Stephen Ireland.

Get new mates Stutts. Start hanging around people who care about the Irish football team, makes life easier. Throw in a few birds that dont really like football and he presto you got a good group of people.

I have a hundred times more respect for Roy Keane (especially as an Irish player) than I have for Stephen Ireland.

I am an Ireland fan, a massive Roy Keane fan, but I wouldnt let Stehen Ireland anywhere near the Ireland team now even if he asked to come back.
Completely different situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think a really sad factor in the Irish support now is that a lot of the fans who "came of age" in the mid 90s relate to MUFC or Liverpool first, Ireland second. It's totally ludicrous how they let their club allegiances affect their support of Ireland.

---

Some went even further back. I travelled to Euro 88 with a friend of mine and numerous other away games prior to that. A big Man U fan who turned his back on Ireland after Saipan. The first home game after Saipan I asked him why he wasn't coming to the game. "Why should I support the muppets who let Roy down?" were his exact words. He's never been to an Ireland game since and I haven't seen him socially since. :( It still divides.

I know a lad who was a massive Ireland fan(well so he says i didnt know him before hand) but he is a big UTD fan, and he turned his back on Ireland after saipan, i assume the whole keane affair put him off.

BUT AT the end of the day if a person does this, it shows their loyaly HAS always been more with "their" club than their country.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fitzy

However, whatever your views about Saipan, there is no way we would have qualified for 2002 without Roy Keane. He was immense in every game in that qualifying group (with the exception of Iran at home), especially against Portugal and Holland at home.

---

Surprisingly enough football is a team game and we wouldn't have qualified for 2002 without a lot of the players, particularly Shay Given and of course Jason McAteer!!

http://sites.google.com/site/kilcree...allsmaller.jpg

My favourite foolball photo of all time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Some went even further back. I travelled to Euro 88 with a friend of mine and numerous other away games prior to that. A big Man U fan who turned his back on Ireland after Saipan. The first home game after Saipan I asked him why he wasn't coming to the game. "Why should I support the muppets who let Roy down?" were his exact words. He's never been to an Ireland game since and I haven't seen him socially since. :( It still divides.

---

Great excuse to get rid of you though. I met a guy in Bari who said he told a guy who supported Ireland and Wednesday that he does not support Ireland anymore and he fell for it:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by an_ceannaire

I am an Ireland fan, a massive Roy Keane fan

---

So you're a bigger RK fan than you are an Ireland fan? I think you've got your priorities wrong.

Not being aggressive here, but can you find fault with any of Roy's position in Saipan? I can find fault & can also find mitigants. I can find fault with McCarthy, but on balance I felt overwhelmingly let down by Keane.

If I had a row with a colleague or my manager at work, but felt there was a big deal to be won I'd have perservered through my troubles. This is where I think Keane was wrong.

I think Roy was a perfectionist but I also think he was unstable at the time for whatever reason - the faultlines were on show even before Saipan -and people who put forward the argument that Keane was just acting on principle are overlooking the fact that they guy just wasn't in a good place mentally. Ultimately the situation was a failure of management (Mick & above) but I also think Keane was unmanagable at the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smasher

What do you expect from a pig but a grunt!
By the way. Some people are talking about glorifying in Ipswich's dilemena. Its nothing that 50million cant solve, ala Sunderland.

---

ok right!!!good point:rolleyes: