Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by mypost

There is of course, more to this referendum than that.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

There is one issue in referendums.

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Which is it?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Which is it?

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This referendum is about the EU. The election is about issues ranging from health-education-transport-infrastructure-economy, etc, etc, etc.

Clearer now?? :confused: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

Every bit as shady, as one coalition partner in favour of it, in order to stay in government.

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Not really, the public can vent their frustration at said coalition partner for misleading them if thats how they feel. Libertas on the other hand, well who the hell are they? They look and sound too much like a US lobby group for my liking, and they lie about issues like our neutrality and taxes

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Originally Posted by mypost

This age-old argument keeps been brought up. :rolleyes: We have done well out of Nice, whereas this offers us no benefit at all.

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No, it's not an age old argument, nor an argument about Nice as such (though I voted No twice) more a comment on the "democratic" process involved. I haven't studied this one at all, and therefore am stuck somewhere between undecided and lazy. After all, if they ain't gonna take no for an answer, you'd have to wonder whats the point ? If I do vote, it'll probably be "No" , just to be perverse. (Certainly not because I'd agree with the "white Ireland" crowd.) As for Neutrality/Security, I happen to value our Neutrality and I am suspicious about a common "defence" policy. I'd also love to know in what way we've benefitted from common "security" Lots of people lining up to attack us, are there ?

Ireland's neutrality is not affected, Ive included a link to the Fianna Fail website but if you google Lisbon Treaty + Irish Neutrality there is umpteen sites with the same info. When Libertas or whoever says we will be part of a European Army they are just lying

http://www.fiannafail.ie/article.php...v=Local%20Item

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Originally Posted by TonyD

No, it's not an age old argument, nor an argument about Nice as such (though I voted No twice) more a comment on the "democratic" process involved.

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Letting the people vote is undemocratic?

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After all, if they ain't gonna take no for an answer, you'd have to wonder whats the point ?

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I gather you're going to ignore what I said about Nice. Did the redrafting to suit the issues that were of concern to us go over your head? Some would've called it a victory.

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As for Neutrality/Security, I happen to value our Neutrality and I am suspicious about a common "defence" policy.

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De fence is something you're sitting on. As for defense, this specifically excludes us from any offensive, or even defensive military action. It recommends that we should do our best to help out in times of crisis e.g. flooding/terrorist attacks - i.e. if bin Laden is broadcasting from Moyross we're expected to try to round him up.

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I'd also love to know in what way we've benefitted from common "security" Lots of people lining up to attack us, are there ?

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Do you think many other countries would get away with having next to no armed forces? At one point a few years ago every armoured vehicle we have was on one street for a parade. If not having to bother our arses, so much so that we can afford to let Willy O'Dea in charge of it, isn't a benefit, I don't know what is.

You'll take that back about Willie when he's called in to map out the Moyross raid before Operation Do Something About Osama You Irish Idiots

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Letting the people vote is undemocratic?

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No, but ignoring the result of that vote is.

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Originally Posted by jebus

You'll take that back about Willie when he's called in to map out the Moyross raid before Operation Do Something About Osama You Irish Idiots

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Sounds like a series of 24.
Willy O'Dea has 24 hours to track down Usama before the Hillary/McCain 08 ticket nukes the south west.
The twist is when Galway fans try to scupper the operation.

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Originally Posted by DaveyCakes

No, but ignoring the result of that vote is.

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When did this happen?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Sounds like a series of 24.
Willy O'Dea has 24 hours to track down Usama before the Hillary/McCain 08 ticket nukes the south west.
The twist is when Galway fans try to scupper the operation.

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Galway fans! Please God let Hilary drop that nuke

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Originally Posted by jebus

Not really, the public can vent their frustration at said coalition partner for misleading them if thats how they feel.

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Can't do anything for another 4 years.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Can't do anything for another 4 years.

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So? They'll never be able to do anything against Libertas for misleading them

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

When did this happen?

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You know as well as anyone else when it happened

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Originally Posted by DaveyCakes

You know as well as anyone else when it happened

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Someone who says something untrue through ignorance is misinformed. Someone who says something untrue despite awareness of the truth, is a liar.

The Nice Treaty was rejected in Ireland because of the ambiguity surrounding our neutrality. Once rejected, the EU leaders went ahead and rewrote it, clarifying that we retained our traditional neutral status. With the Nice treaty modified as we had democratically asked for it to be, it was then put before the people again, and this time passed. If there's a case that they should use to teach children about the beauty of the democratic process, its the Nice treaty.

You are informed. Now, when did anyone ignore the result of a vote?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

The Nice Treaty was rejected in Ireland because of the ambiguity surrounding our neutrality. Once rejected, the EU leaders went ahead and rewrote it, clarifying that we retained our traditional neutral status.

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The Nice Treaty failed for 2 reasons;

• Government arrogance
• Record low turnout.

The Nice Treaty wasn't re-written, a declaration was drafted stating Ireland's neutrality.

The EU Constitution, when ratified will render the Nice and all previous treaties, obsolete.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The EU Constitution, when ratified will render the Nice and all previous treaties, obsolete.

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That is a strange statement given that the Treaty is only readable in the context of the existing Treaties (i.e. "Article X of the Treaty on Eurpean Union will be amended by the addition of the words.....).

How exactly does it render all previous Treaties obsolete, given that the two Treaties (EC and EU) will remain (albeit with one renamed)?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Letting the people vote is undemocratic?
I gather you're going to ignore what I said about Nice. Did the redrafting to suit the issues that were of concern to us go over your head? Some would've called it a victory. I'll bow to your superior knowledge of the fine detail of the Nice treaty, but as far as I can remember the 2nd referendum was pushed through mainly on the fear of somehow threatning our prosperity. And I'd also guess that the Nuetrality issue was only one of a number of factors in the No vote.De fence is something you're sitting on. As for defense,
Really ? We have a Minister for, and Department of, Defence. Maybe you're American ? I'll stick with the Irish version of the word if you don't mind. If you're going to correct someones spelling to try to make yourself look big and clever, then it's probably a good idea to make sure you're right.
this specifically excludes us from any offensive, or even defensive military action. It recommends We're obliged to assist, with no definition of what form this assistance would take, according to the Referendum Commission Handbook that we should do our best to help out in times of crisis e.g. flooding/terrorist attacks - i.e. if bin Laden is broadcasting from Moyross we're expected to try to round him up.
Do you think many other countries would get away with having next to no armed forces? I have no idea, but maybe it would be no bad thing. I ask again, do you think there's a que forming to invade Ireland ? At one point a few years ago every armoured vehicle we have was on one street for a parade. If not having to bother our arses, so much so that we can afford to let Willy O'Dea in charge of it, isn't a benefit, I don't know what is.

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PS - Osama wouldn't go near Moyross. No way is he hard enough. :p

Still trying to find a credible organisation that is backing a No vote. So far there options are Shinners preaching about Militarisation, Bible Bashers warning against democracy (Three Monkeys posters), Former Commies warning against sovereignty, Shady organisation probably backed by US Military interests warning against democracy, abortion & neutrality. How can any of these organisations be taken seriously?

At least on the Yes side it is obvious why the organisations want the Treaty passed.

From what I have read the Lisbon Treaty (based on EU Constitution) has been created based on the biggest consultation process ever undertaken in Europe.

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Originally Posted by pete

Still trying to find a credible organisation that is backing a No vote. At least on the Yes side it is obvious why the organisations want the Treaty passed.

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And we're still looking for the Yes side to come up with A credible reason why this treaty benefits Ireland. :confused:

It doesn't really matter who is "for" or "against" it, the constitution is about substance, or lack of it, and with 5 parties obliged to support it, someone has to take up the case for the no side.