Eligibility proposal

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Originally Posted by geysir

You use to say my arguement was based on the letter now you say its open or shut. Make your mind up :)
The one line I repeated ad nauseam in my posts, is that Island born = automatic right = Article 15, no Annex need apply
FIFA have consistantly backed the FAI in this since they first called up the 6 county born. Every document stamped by FIFA legal dept means approval.
Fifa are not going to alter from their position that Island born Irish citizens qualify automatically for the Republic. That part of their "compromise" is already FIFA practice. That part will remain untouched no matter what the IFA will reject. Smell the Guinness.
The real compromise is to allow any Irish born to play for the North
So FIFA allow for 2 associations to come up with a special agreement. It is there in the FIFA practice to allow associations come together and make a deal but FIFA retain the right to accept or reject it.
That's FIFA´s sense of fair play. They have a heart so I must applaud them.
Should the IFA reject to enter into discussion about this compromise, FIFA will not change from present practice.

Any lingering questions or misunderstandings you need answered about the UK agreement?

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Disingenuous, Geysir, as I'm sure you know.

Throughout this debate, you have consistently claimed the FIFA's Arts & Regs permit NI-born players to represent the ROI entirely legitimately and that the Annex had no application to their case. As evidence for this interpretation of yours, you cited the October 2006 FIFA Letter. Which is fair enough, except that more recent developments have cast significant doubt over this interpretation.

These are:
1. When the IFA sought to challenge this at FIFA, even after 12 months and lengthy submissions by both Associations, FIFA has declined to confirm your assertion;
2. Very recently, and following their correspondance with FIFA etc, the FAI instructed two (three?) of their National team managers NOT to select certain NI-born players (at least pro tem);
3. The most recent correspondence from FIFA, which could allow NI-born players to represent ROI without needing to comply with the Annex Conditions is NOT in the form of a Ruling, rather it is in the form of a suggested "compromise", which requires inter alia the agreement of the IFA in order to be implemented. Moreover, this "compromise" includes an offer to the IFA which they had never even sought (the right of select ROI-born players with no Annex connections), presumably in order to make the IFA more amenable to accepting the "compromise". Consequently, one must assume that if the IFA were to reject this "compromise", then we are back to square one over the Annex.

Therefore, you have quite simply been proven wrong when you have stated that FIFA have been entirely happy all along for the FAI to select NI-born players who do not also meet the Annex criteria for ROI teams.

At the very least, the FAI is not so convinced of their case as before, otherwise they would have persisted with selecting Kane, Higgins etc.

Whereas I, some minor and not actually relevant technical points notwithstanding, have been vindicated by my consistent stance that it is unclear whether the Annex applies, and will continue to be so, until FIFA provides a definitive Statement one way or the other.

P.S. Thank you for your kind offer re. the UK Agreement. I have only one further question on this point: what relevance does it have to the subject of this thread, which in case you have forgotten, concerns NI-born players with Irish Nationality, who do not wish to play for any of the four "Home" Associations, but who do wish to represent the ROI?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

P.S. Thank you for your kind offer re. the UK Agreement. I have only one further question on this point: what relevance does it have to the subject of this thread, which in case you have forgotten, concerns NI-born players with Irish Nationality, who do not wish to play for any of the four "Home" Associations, but who do wish to represent the ROI?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

...In fact, there was a very recent case of a young English-born lad whose family had moved him to Scotland at a young age. He plays for a Scottish club and wanted to declare for Scotland. Despite his having played for Scotland Schools, the English FA objected to his representing Scotland at any higher level, on the basis that the "Home" Agreement states that birthplace overrides all other considerations in case of dispute over eligibility between the four. The SFA accepted this.

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Welcome to the double standards world of Ealing Green, where he can waffle on ad nauseum about something irrelevent to the thread, but you can't. You could call it an Ealing Green Comedy...if it was funny.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Intellectually challenged as in suggesting Irish nationalists sing songs about the armed forces that burnt Cork, killed Irish people at whim during the war of independence, and shot 26 people on bloody sunday.

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I did NOT advocate that Irish Nationalists should sing British Army songs etc at football matches, as you continue to allege. Rather, in response to a post where you stated that it was perfectly acceptable to sing certain IRA songs at ROI matches, I countered by wondering whether you also consider it appropriate to sing songs sung by another set of Irish soldiers from the same period, such as "It's a Long Way to Tipperary"?
My clear point was that I believe it inappropriate to sing any such political/military songs at any football match (National Anthems aside).
However, despite my having explained this frequently, you continue to trot out your blatant lie at intervals (perhaps in order to persuade newcomers to the debate, who do not know the background to the point?).

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Originally Posted by lopez

However it's sad to see you down about FIFA's recent movements on this subject, but you seem more indignant about me stating you thought you had the decision 'in the bag' and yet you confess:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
"...From my reading between the lines, my guess is that until possibly as recently as last week, FIFA were of the opinion that, following an exhaustive review, the IFA's case was correct..."

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I have every right to be indignant at your continuing efforts to misrepresent me with your willing fabrications, even lies. You accused me of "smugly" having declared that the IFA had FIFA's endorsement "in the bag", when anyone who had read my posts in the appropriate thread would know the exact opposite to be the case. But even after I provided a clear post of mine from as recently as a couple of weeks ago to prove my case, and challenged you to find one single post of mine to back up your case, rather than doing so, you continue to misrepresent me. (That selective quotation of yours came after all my posts on the subject and since it was my attempt to guess, ex post facto, which way FIFA's deliberations may have been going, it has no relevance whatever to your false allegation, nor my clear rebuttal. But doubtless you know that)

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Originally Posted by lopez

Bullsh*tter is the right word for you, mate. Also hypocrite as well. As you start bringing in the 'political interference' argument about the Irish government soliciting an appeal, but have changed your tune about the plitically defunct UUP doing likewise. BTW what's the story about the DUP, AP and the other unionist parties, anyone?

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You know, I'm never sure whether you not capable of understanding even relatively simple concepts, or whether you are so bitter and prejudiced that you merely ignore them when they prove inconvenient to your point. On the question of FIFA's attitude to politics, in an earlier post (09/11/07, 1.53 pm, #251) I made quite clear the distinction between political support for an Association (acceptable to FIFA) and political interference (unacceptable). Therefore, there is absolutely no "hypocrisy" involved on my part whatever.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Finally, as for pointscoring rather than debating, etc., remember these words.

"Lopez,
Following another thread, I've come to realise that it's futile for me to debate any such topic with you, not just because I risk allowing myself to get drawn into endless controversy, to the nth degree of pettiness, but also because it seems to me that the style and content of your posts inevitably say more about you and your opinions than I ever could.
So by all means, keep posting, indeed keep posting in response to my posts if you like; just don't expect me to reciprocate."

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I've emboldened the salient part of my post, in case still don't get it. That is, I refuse to get drawn into political arguments with you, since you invariably use them to deflect from purely footballing issues, to provide you with a platform to trot out your predictable, tired prejudices.

However, where you make a footballing point with which I disagree, or attempt yet again to misrepresent me on some issue or other, I don't see why I should let these pass.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Welcome to the double standards world of Ealing Green, where he can waffle on ad nauseum about something irrelevent to the thread, but you can't. You could call it an Ealing Green Comedy...if it was funny.

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This thread is about the Eligibility of NI-born players to represent the ROI. In the course of it, another poster wondered about the eligibility of Isle of Man players to play international football. Consequently, the thread deviated to the topic of the the Home Associations Agreement, which is where I posted about Andrew Driver (by way of illustration).

However, in response to Geysir's triumphalism at having "caught me out" over an aspect of this side track, I reminded him that it still shouldn't deflect from the main topic of this thread, where I consider his case still to be "not proven".

Lopez: as you suggest, most European countries now use both ancestry and birth/ residence to determine citizenship. I was thinking of an Irish born footballer playing for you in the future, when those born post 2004 are old enough. Even though he would be citizen of another country.

On the specifics of our/ your players, I think the annoyance of NI fans and gloating from the 'Irish unity inevitable tomorrow' are both exaggerated. We stand to lose a handful of players, I see no threat to the team. Although I would like to see at least a bilateral agreement, if not FIFA diktat, that playing for one international youth or u-21 team bars you from later choosing another.

I'll be a neutral watching in Cardiff next week, if you're around for a legal Latin chat :). No doubt the Cardiff pubs etc. will show our game later on TV.

do you live in cardiff GR?!

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Originally Posted by gustavo

Could you do the same for me NB?
Cheers

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I took this up with Admin gustavo, and got the following reply:

"Dont have a Gustavo on the list.

Ask him to rereg and if it does not work, i will set it up.

Sometime people don't click on the email they get back from the site, when they first reg, and sometimes their spam fliter eats it, as them to also look into their spam folders"

Hope that helps!

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I took this up with Admin gustavo, and got the following reply:

"Dont have a Gustavo on the list.

Ask him to rereg and if it does not work, i will set it up.

Sometime people don't click on the email they get back from the site, when they first reg, and sometimes their spam fliter eats it, as them to also look into their spam folders"

Hope that helps!

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Thanks :)

Article entitled "Poots slams FIFA call on eligibility row"
in the Belfast Telegraph
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...cle3141272.ece
"They (IFA) believe that the FIFA proposal is inconsistent with its own rules and with what FIFA has already told the IFA. I support that position.
If this principle is to be applied, what is to stop footballers from Northern Ireland who hold British passports, playing for Scotland, Wales or England?"
Poots intends to write to FIFA.

Well, Mr Poots, (the Minister for Sport no less) even Ealing Green could tell you now, the terms of the UK Agreement prevent a NI born UK passport holder from playing for another UK team.
Whatever the FIFA legal dept are getting paid, to have to listen to fools like Poots, it isn't enough.
If Poots can not have a basic grasp of the UK Agreement how can he come remotely close to understanding the application of Article 15?

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Lopez: as you suggest, most European countries now use both ancestry and birth/ residence to determine citizenship. I was thinking of an Irish born footballer playing for you in the future, when those born post 2004 are old enough. Even though he would be citizen of another country.

On the specifics of our/ your players, I think the annoyance of NI fans and gloating from the 'Irish unity inevitable tomorrow' are both exaggerated. We stand to lose a handful of players, I see no threat to the team. Although I would like to see at least a bilateral agreement, if not FIFA diktat, that playing for one international youth or u-21 team bars you from later choosing another.

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Some good points and a realistic take on things. NI isn't threatened..its not threatened necessarily by a united Ireland. But then your views are taken on footballing terms and 'realpolitik' of what this decision entails. I think your right about the one choice and stick with it after schoolboys level (like it used to be) should also be included. It cuts out the poaching argument at least.

Re the bit about citizenship: Germany, Switzerland and Austria all had similar laws. However, as you know, these governments would bypass normal citizenship laws so as to get athletes competing for their country (Zola Budd similar case). Therefore, should there be the child of an illegal immigrant born in Ireland who the DofJ sent back to Somalia or wherever, but becomes the next Pele, I'm sure there'll be a passport dispatched before you could say 'ammendment to the consitution.' Never let it be said that I think the Irish government are any less unscrupilous than the British.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I'll be a neutral watching in Cardiff next week, if you're around for a legal Latin chat :). No doubt the Cardiff pubs etc. will show our game later on TV.

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I heard from the Hood that you'll be in Cardiff, and my first thought is why aren't you at WP? You're still in with a shout of qualification. I'll catch up with you anyways.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Article entitled "Poots slams FIFA call on eligibility row"
in the Belfast Telegraph
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...cle3141272.ece
"They (IFA) believe that the FIFA proposal is inconsistent with its own rules and with what FIFA has already told the IFA. I support that position.
If this principle is to be applied, what is to stop footballers from Northern Ireland who hold British passports, playing for Scotland, Wales or England?"
Poots intends to write to FIFA.

Well, Mr Poots, (the Minister for Sport no less) even Ealing Green could tell you now, the terms of the UK Agreement prevent a NI born UK passport holder from playing for another UK team.
Whatever the FIFA legal dept are getting paid, to have to listen to fools like Poots, it isn't enough.
If Poots can not have a basic grasp of the UK Agreement how can he come remotely close to understanding the application of Article 15?

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As Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure in NI, I daresay Poots can claim an interest in this matter. That said, he has never shown any previous interest in football, never mind the intricacies of FIFA's eligibility rules. Therefore, whilst he may write to FIFA, if he wishes, equally, FIFA may regard or disregard any letter or approach entirely as it suits them.

Anyhow, Geysir, seeing as how I appear still to be in your thoughts, do you have any thoughts on my previous post? (10/11/07, 5.58pm, #284)

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Originally Posted by lopez

Sooooo sorry, NB for hurting your feelings there chum. Tell you what: You don't put up posts that leave you open to contradiction, and I won't allow my mind to go walkies about what you are trying to actually say.

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You certainly didn't hurt my feelings.

I didn't post anything that was open to contradiction.

Stop your bull****ing, and we'll get along just fine.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure in NI, I daresay Poots can claim an interest in this matter. That said, he has never shown any previous interest in football, never mind the intricacies of FIFA's eligibility rules. Therefore, whilst he may write to FIFA, if he wishes, equally, FIFA may regard or disregard any letter or approach entirely as it suits them.

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The Belfast Telegraph has banner headlines from the Minister Of Sport on the sports pages quoting this idiot without any qualification or attempt to clarify his ignorance!

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Anyhow, Geysir, seeing as how I appear still to be in your thoughts, do you have any thoughts on my previous post? (10/11/07, 5.58pm, #284

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post 284 you ask?
Whereas I, some minor and not actually relevant technical points notwithstanding, have been vindicated by my consistent stance that it is unclear whether the Annex applies, and will continue to be so, until FIFA provides a definitive Statement one way or the other.

You might not appreciate that Statutes are also about technicalities and one's ability to comprehend them. It is not irrelevant to this discussion that you have demonstrated a repeated willingness to write about FIFA statutes (the UK agreement, "A" international.) that you were quite blatantly ignorant about. Why should I not laugh that your only consistant stance is that you are unclear.
I must have missed that bit in the FIFA proposal about the Annex. I wonder how they could have ignored the Annex, I mean it´s not as if there is more that a few pages to look at in the Statutes, Maybee the IFA forgot to mention the Annex in their submission?

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Therefore, you have quite simply been proven wrong when you have stated that FIFA have been entirely happy all along for the FAI to select NI-born players who do not also meet the Annex criteria for ROI teams.

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:D
You may not be aware, but under FIFA statutes when there is a review, FIFA do ask the challenged party to stand down from their position even if that practice was previously supported by FIFA.

I've just wasted 10 minutes of my life reading all that ****e! Utter madness

No place for group hugs in the Purgatory Thread.
Instead of getting banned by Dahamsta you get sent here for a couple of weeks to debate with Ealing G.
My time is up now. I´m cleansed.

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Originally Posted by geysir

OK Féck the burden, lost in translation I think
Having cleared up that point, demonstrates to those who want to understand the finer points of FIFA statutes, to those who want to understand why FIFA have consistantly backed the FAI, to those who want to understand the rationality behind Article 15 and the rationale behind why the Annex criteria is not applied to people like Darron Gibson
because he is born on the island of Ireland and the Republic gives full unconditional citizenship to all who sails in her since birth.
That´s it.
There is no Annex for that, there is no need, it´s a players automatic right under FIFA statutes to play for the Republic and if previously capped by NI it falls under Article 15.
Why the feck don´t you think FIFA just say okay lets apply the annex
and be done with it?
The ANNEX criteria is for those obtaining citizenship.

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This is correct. And FIFA have now publicly confirmed it.

What the IFA should have been arguing, though, is that the South's extra-territorial citizenship laws create a (presumably) unique situation which requires an annex of its own ... one FIFA member claims all the players of another FIFA member as its own by virtue of an extra-territorial citizenship law.  This is inherently unfair and FIFA should rectify it.

Well Northern Ireland have always had the option of playing any one entitled to a British passport even those who were not eligible to play for the Republic under any criteria, and who had no direct contact with the wee North unless I am greatly mistaken.
Back in the 1980's Pat Van Den Hauwe , who was born in Belgium but naturalised through his parents moving to the UK declared for Wales but as far as I know he could have been claimed equally by NI, England or Scotland. So if that was the case and remains so NI can pick anyone with a UK passport and ROI can pick anyone entitled to have an Irish passport. Not much of a difference except NI have 59 million more to choose from. And good luck to them if that is the case. Another example might be this...
Maik Taylor was born in Germany but has a UK entitlement to citizenship through his parents. I am not sure of his NI credentials past that . Except he's a good goalkeeper :D

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Originally Posted by lopez

I heard from the Hood that you'll be in Cardiff, and my first thought is why aren't you at WP? You're still in with a shout of qualification. I'll catch up with you anyways.

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The WP game is a sellout (as many reading will know, this is as much to do with the ramshackle state of the stadium as the importance of the game). I could probably get a ticket but don't fancy touting. Cardiff's a nice day out as I live in the English Midlands at the moment, not south Wales as Paul guessed above. And there's no time clash as the NI game's in the evening.

The thing is, I disagree with yesterday's Indo (basically, they think Euro qualifying is all but over, "nothing to see"). Wrong. This game is still important, for overall position, bragging rights, momentum and the rest of it. As is the one in Belfast. Before it, our chance of qualifying is 1%- 2% ; but if we win and Spain don't against Sweden, that rises tenfold going into the last round on Wednesday week. That would be our biggest game since 1986- bring it on ;)

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Originally Posted by Blanchflower

one FIFA member claims all the players of another FIFA member as its own by virtue of an extra-territorial citizenship law.  This is inherently unfair and FIFA should rectify it.

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The FAI don't claim all the players in the six counties, just the ones who want to play for us. FIFA will do nothing about citizenship laws, to do so would embroil them in national politics and would set a precedent that would echo way beyond this issue.

so if BlanchFlower has seen the light and understood, does that mean that EG will also have?!