Republic of Ireland V Ukraine - Wednesday, 8 June 2022 - 2022/23 UEFA Nations League

The big issue we face at the moment is between the 1993 and 1997 age groups we’ve developed little to nothing and if you look at most comparable NT’s such as Scotland and Wales a lot of their key players are in this age group (imagine where Scotland for instance would be if you took McGinn,Tierney,McTominay, Adams, Robertson etc out of the equation who are all well developed players from this age bracket). The big hope now is we can ride the next few years out and hope once the likes of Collins,Idah, Knight, Parrott etc replaced the current 1993-1997 players then we can start seeing a massive upturn for the NT.

I think this paragraph from Ken Early says it all for me:

Ireland’s sterile domination in Armenia had been frustrating to watch but here it was replaced by a kind of entropic nothingness. James McClean, Dara O’Shea, Michael Obafemi, Alan Browne and CJ Hamilton were all introduced as Ireland mounted a feeble late onslaught in which all the best chances seemed to fall, as ever, to Shane Duffy. For all the talk of a vibrant new style of play, this team has never seemed more reliant on him. When the pressure is on, Ireland’s plan still boils down to “ball on largest man’s head”.

The more things change the more they stay the same!

I just saw no shape, pattern, purpose, design or anything last night. I’ll hold my hands up and say now there’s probably more to the Anthony Barry thing than I was prepared to admit before.

I’d have been happier to have been mugged trying to play naïve build-from-the-back tippy tappy but I don’t even know what identity the team had last night. I’m no tactical expert but I thought we made an already big pitch look huge. There were gaps between our various lines and I’d say aerial snapshots would show big distances between our players at lot of the time. Contrast that to Ukraine who got men close to each other, attacked as a pack and as such never really needed to do anything particularly creative. They just knocked it to each other and probed, made clever runs, found nice angles, got between our lines, all with ease.

And – and this is where I give SK a pass – I doubt any of that is down to what they do on the training ground. For me it’s just normal football, stuff you learn as a kid and do instinctively as a result. I grew up in a middle class suburb in Dublin, so not quite the fabled inner city streets where so many Ireland greats learnt street football. But we played footy on the street all the time as kids and there was almost an unwritten rule that you didn’t score unless it was a worldie or a carefully crafted tap in. We tried to humiliate each other and did so by creating what coaches call overloads and we just used our wits.

I saw no evidence of that kind of instinct in our players last night.

Positives were few. I think we should have had a pen in the first half and Duffy should have scored (good save all the same) but they’re just isolated moments. Their goal was a bit waxy but come on, we’ve got to question Kelleher. In the “Embarrassment of Riches” thread I said that I was sceptical of him against a good inswinger and wanted to see him cope with these trickier aspects of goalkeeping on a consistent basis. His handling and distribution were good throughout, but his anticipation and footwork were both awful for the goal. And although the disallowed volley was a great shot, I still think he looks small in the goals.

I don't really know what to say after that. All of the worst flaws of Kenny management were there again. Positive start, don't score, start to tire, crying out for changes at half time, start the second half terribly, crying out for changes, still no changes, make changes too late to really impact and make them like for like, then for the last few minutes stick a big centre back up front and hope one bounces in off him.

Kenny's Dundalk were a great side to watch because they always looked dangerous even against better sides in Europe, Kenny's Rovers were turgid a lot of the time and unfortunately his Ireland team are going down the same path. I would questions Andrews beside Kenny and why he's not pushing for more dynamic changes, we know Kenny likes to stick with the starting eleven for at least 75 minutes in most games and he'll rarely alter the shape, I think that's where the assistant needs to spot things and really get in his ear to make changes. The bench just looked very flat all around.

I think he has to win Saturday and at least draw on Tuesday to stay in the job now. The energy levels looked very low for a lot of the players who played 90 in Armenia and surely they need to be given a rest now, which is a valid reason to make significant changes to the team. Obafemi surely starts anyway, Cullen and Hendrick look wrecked so maybe Hourihane/Molumby/Browne come in from the start. Parrot will surely come back in with Ogbene maybe having picked up a knock, Egan is likely out so O'Shea will start. I think he'll stick with Kelleher and he's unlikely to change the formation massively.

I'm expecting to see;
Kelleher
Christie (not convinced he's fit but he'll more than likely start)
Collins
Duffy
O'Shea
McClean
Hourihane
Browne
Knight
Parrott
Obafemi

I am of the opinion that a lot of these “experienced” players as they clearly aren’t buying into the Kenny style and aren’t doing their job and leading the team.

I’m even at the point where I’d back someone like McGuinness instead of Duffy as crazy as it sounds to some as he’s big, could develop into a deadly player from corners and could develop into the next Duffy if not a better technical version.

It feels to me like the players are doing what they're being asked to against their own better judgement. That's a tough situation to be in as a player, if you don't believe in the project it's difficult to perform within it. And it's very hard to have any belief in the project at this stage as it has clearly failed.

Doesn’t the eventual substitution of both wing backs speak volumes? – which ties back with Stuttgart's comments about the pitch looking big + gaps between the lines. Not sure I’d continue with the wing backs in the absence of Doherty ….

But overall lack of quality from us on the night. I know the Duffy chances at the end echo back to the past, but we did have opportunities throughout the game, arguably more than Ukraine, but final execution + poor decision making let us down. (an aside here but why does Hendrick not want to shoot?) Hard to see what we can get out of the next two games when individual performances are so underwhelming and we seem slave to plan A/ have no plan B.

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

It feels to me like the players are doing what they're being asked to against their own better judgement. That's a tough situation to be in as a player, if you don't believe in the project it's difficult to perform within it. And it's very hard to have any belief in the project at this stage as it has clearly failed.

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At this stage it’s either the players or the manager, if the manager is still in charge he needs to get rid of the players who aren’t buying into the style. Tbh I don’t trust players like Duffy’s “better judgment”.

Like I said in a previous comment players like Duffy should be given their marching orders if they don’t follow the game plan.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Doesn’t the eventual substitution of both wing backs speak volumes? – which ties back with Stuttgart's comments about the pitch looking big + gaps between the lines. Not sure I’d continue with the wing backs in the absence of Doherty ….

But overall lack of quality from us on the night. I know the Duffy chances at the end echo back to the past, but we did have opportunities throughout the game, arguably more than Ukraine, but final execution + poor decision making let us down. (an aside here but why does Hendrick not want to shoot?) Hard to see what we can get out of the next two games when individual performances are so underwhelming and we seem slave to plan A/ have no plan B.

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For starters back Obafemi and stop backing Robinson who continues to underperform.

That was awful. For the middle hour, the midfield was getting tore a new one and Kenny hadn't a clue how to react to it. Changes again came too late. Obefemi and Mcclean showed more energy than the starters. McClean gets pelters on here but for me raises the tempo of the game, is aggressive and on the front foot. Doherty is a massive loss in how we play, never thought I'd say that!

The main reason for moving to wing backs was to accommodate Doherty and Stevens when they were flying in those roles in the Premier league. With Doherty out and Stevens only recovering from injury and struggling for form, it makes much less sense to persist with it. We've also got much more pace in the squad now and players who could be used as more conventional wingers, so there's certainly a case to be made to abandon the wing backs for a while.

Overall I liked this article; https://www.the42.ie/changing-irelan...86241-Jun2022/ makes some valid points about the challenge of having to completely transform a long embedded style of play. I do think the belief that we can score goals is lacking, I can't help feeling that if we scored early in either of the two games, confidence would have shot up and comfortable wins were there for the taking. The confidence almost visibly drains from them as the game goes on, and it seems that the opposition figure us out and come out energised at half time, while we come out a bit deflated.

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Originally Posted by passinginterest

The main reason for moving to wing backs was to accommodate Doherty and Stevens when they were flying in those roles in the Premier league. With Doherty out and Stevens only recovering from injury and struggling for form, it makes much less sense to persist with it. We've also got much more pace in the squad now and players who could be used as more conventional wingers, so there's certainly a case to be made to abandon the wing backs for a while.

Overall I liked this article; https://www.the42.ie/changing-irelan...86241-Jun2022/ makes some valid points about the challenge of having to completely transform a long embedded style of play. I do think the belief that we can score goals is lacking, I can't help feeling that if we scored early in either of the two games, confidence would have shot up and comfortable wins were there for the taking. The confidence almost visibly drains from them as the game goes on, and it seems that the opposition figure us out and come out energised at half time, while we come out a bit deflated.

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This is part of the reason why I’m all for moving on the older guard, the younger players believe in the way we want to play so we need to back them.

I agree about confidence, definitely in Yerevan.

Just looking at it now but Hendrick hadn’t played a full 90 minutes since the 5th of March, has played 67 minutes in the last 2 months,asking him to play 2 90 minutes in 4 days,1 in very hot weather seems like a terrible idea…..

Hendrick has been improving under Kenny so can see why he wanted him in the team, despite club difficulties. He’s been poor however against Armenia + Ukraine, but so has Cullen. And that’s Kenny’s dilemma. I think he had a firm idea of his best 11 coming into the Nations League but so many of that 11 have subsequently underperformed. With two losses, his job position is at such risk now that maybe he can’t but stick with his favoured personnel/ tactics rather than making the changes that are needed.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Hendrick has been improving under Kenny so can see why he wanted him in the team, despite club difficulties. He’s been poor however against Armenia + Ukraine, but so has Cullen. And that’s Kenny’s dilemma. I think he had a firm idea of his best 11 coming into the Nations League but so many of that 11 have subsequently underperformed. With two losses, his job position is at such risk now that maybe he can’t but stick with his favoured personnel/ tactics rather than making the changes that are needed.

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Yeah Hendrick is definitely a Kenny favourite but just felt maybe Molumby should have started last night for his legs more than anything …

Molumby's never looked great for us in fairness, has he?

Can understand the suggestion of switching the squad around, but our squad is so lacking in depth that there's a bit of a deckchairs-on-the-Titanic feel about rotation at times.

FWIW I did think Hendrick was good in the first half of the last two games, but faded badly in the second half, moreso against Armenia. I think his performance in the last 20 minutes of that game, when he was clearly dead on his feet, is overriding what he did well in both games.
Why Cullen, who completes 90 minutes almost every time he's played this season, went off instead of Hendrick last Saturday is beyond me

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Molumby's never looked great for us in fairness, has he?

Can understand the suggestion of switching the squad around, but our squad is so lacking in depth that there's a bit of a deckchairs-on-the-Titanic feel about rotation at times.

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Yeah that’s fair,we desperately need a Smallbone or one of the others to step up to regular Premier league football and quickly…..

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Originally Posted by SkStu

If it hasn't already been made clear by now, time has changed things for me. Expectations have changed. What i was willing to let go 12 months ago, i am less tolerant of now. Would you prefer if i dug my heels in on an old perspective or disappeared? Its typical of you to go at it this way. The role of the pessimist is the easy one in football, Paul. It ends tits up in football 90% of the time so the pessimist can always say he told you so.

Pity you cant just discuss and debate and dialogue instead of trying to get your kicks. It would make for a better forum all round.

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But it started the same as it is now. For me nothing has changed in style or how we play bar holding the ball for longer - and thats been there from day one but that's all that's been there - since Mccarthy or even O'Neill, we have worse shape, are more likely to concede against weaker opposition and our scoring threat is still minimal. But at least under the other two bar the Denmark home game under Oneill we had structure and shape and the players clearly knew their roles. We never looked out of our depth really with the others, holding our own, we just looked very limited. I never fell for this passing it around the back sideways in our own half thinking this was anything other than a fools version of possession football with neat passing ability. However desperate we were to see good football, that wasn't it and shouldn't have muddied anyone's thinking, hoodwinked or fooled anyone whos watched football over the years.

Back on last night, I watched highlights and tried to get kenny's interview on RTE again but I couldn't find it, other than some quotes pulled from the mirror, something that struck me at the time was(apart from all the disappointing, lucky goal, we didn't deserver to lose, we could have won the game, we had chances, pick n mix kenny quote) "we needed to score first and then they got the goal" or words to that effect. It was very telling, it suggested to me that there was no plan once we conceded first and the players and management didnt stick to whatever their original plan was anyway run at them for as long as possible before you run out of steam. But it sounded like kenny panicked, and that had a ripple effect on the team, his substitutions and lack of formation change would suggest the same.

I summarised in verbose bullet points this but I think its already been covered really:

*Set-piece/build up play severely lacking missing Barry perhaps? We didnt seem to have anything other than get it out to the wings and cross it out of the trapatoni cook book except then we had Robbie keane and Kevin Doyle
*Not fair to suggest he didnt make subs early enough, changes were made around 65-70 mins or so, but not effective he didn't make the right subs and he didn't make the formational change that was required. Players looking at Kenny wondering where the shift should go after bringing on brown - no talk before about possible different formations or positional changes, everything like for like. Still persisting with the same formation, square pegs round holes as was suggested, bringing personnel in clearly not suited to those positions. Playing a style that suited players not here or not match fit or in form. When those changes came in Duffy and Egan both looked over to Kenny for instruction, had this not been worked on in training, it wasnt an injury forced substution.
*Duffy is our hammer/nail metaphor just keep lobbing balls into the box no build up play
*Suggestions that players don't buy in, I am not agreeing with, everything suggests they buy in but what's not clear is if they understand fully what they are buying into and how they are meant to fit individually and collectively into that.
*Players huff and puff for 10-15 mins then they dont score what happens? we cant sustain is that fitness
*Collins hands on thighs on 75 mins, then cant run with the ball when in space? Knight similar situation and only played one full 90. Bad fitness schedule the week before and in camp?

By the end of the 90 it was complete chaos, disorganised, desperate, use all the superlatives you like, if we'd scored would have been (anti-pattern) as much to do with not playing the way kenny intended and not any remnants of a formation or system he started with.

Now what about Saturday? With the players available and the experience we have, could we change to a 4-1-2-3 or 4-1-2-1-2, is Collins athletic enough to play as the defensive midfielder, breaking up the opposition play. I'm not yet convinced his positional sense is good enough as a CB yet, but he showed that coming onto the ball and getting tackles in he is very good and he looks like a man mountain, his pace seems to be ok over a longer stretch so it wouldn't be like he needs that quick acceleration which he seems to lack anyway. With the players we have Ogbene and Festy are too inexperienced to go in as wing backs, i'd like us to switch to 4 at the back. The only bit of kenny formation I'd be ok with is the 3 up top or 2 with kinght/parrot/robinson in behind. I don't want to see so many crosses in or high balls in when we've got midges(small annoying, harrying players but little height impact) or close to that in the box. So if he sticks with Ogbene and Obafemi up top with robinson or parrot in behind, and plays Collins as a defensive midfielder who can take the ball off defenders and pick a pass to the playing midfielders I would be more than happy with Stephen come Saturday, but I really don't see him changing too much.

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

Have backed the Kenny experiment all the way. Felt it was worthwhile to change approach and bed in some new guys when we had little other choice. Enjoyed seeing us pass the ball, keep it a bit, and create a few chances per game. It was nice when we got a couple of wins last year to lift the gloom. But for whatever reason after tonight I feel I'm done with this regime now. I hate football supporters who have the knives out early and are all I told you so when things inevitably go south. We can criticise but we support first and foremost. But the time is up on Kenny now in my opinion. Not sure what the next step should be but there needs to be a change.

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this. and more less he blamed the attcking players because they couldn finish those 3 counterattacks

Watching the penalty incident from the first half last night again. This was straight down from where I was sitting, and at the time I thought it was a clear penalty.
However, does the defender get a slight touch on the ball at 3:09, and then catch Robinson? There's a better look at 3:14