Add of course they did lose 3-0 in Germany as did Austria, Kazakhstan lost by 3 goals too (4-1)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Sweden of course drew from being 4-0 down, so there is nothing positive in the scoreline.
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Add of course they did lose 3-0 in Germany as did Austria, Kazakhstan lost by 3 goals too (4-1)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Sweden of course drew from being 4-0 down, so there is nothing positive in the scoreline.
The same applied to Richard Dunne until he was about 27!Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
Edit: just saw liamo's post saying the same. Sorry liamo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
I'd have liked to have seen Clark get more games alongside Dunne. Didn't happen at Villa last year. Should it be considered for Tuesday? I suppose O'Shea and Dunne will start but if we are looking to the future, it'd be a great experience for Clark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
For me last night left me feeling that we really shouldve had the new manager in there for these two games. Look Noel King is in for a week, thats it. God love him, its not easy and one of those games is against Germany away. I like that he tried something different against Germany but it didnt work. He developed trap like delusional tendencies in the after match interview.
I liked how we tried to play the ball and not just hoof it all the time. Problem is when we did win the ball, it was usually very deep in our half. The options were a very short pass to another midfielder who were closely marked anyways or else a ball to the lone man which was usually Stokes. In summary, the outlets werent there. In theory what King was trying to do was sensible but it was all fine until we won the ball back, there was no option and Germany won it back.
This Irish team arent great, ya we all know that but we are better than that. We can play football we can put it up to Germany but 99% of the time they will beat us. Fine. But I would prefer us to try and play some football against them rather than camped in our half for most of the game. The few mins either side of HT were very encouraging.
I would have like us to play a 4-4-1-1 last night, with someone like Hoolahan or Reid playing behind the striker. It wouldve given us two outlet balls and one of those outlets at least wouldve been very comfortable on the ball.
Just a comment on the second goal, too many players in the box leaving too many Germans free outside the edge
of the box, when we realise the problem the defense runs out en mass towards the player with the ball
and the Germans say thank you very much and chip the ball over them.
Like taking candy from a baby.
Back to a constant problem of not marking players, it seems the philosophy is we are incapable of marking them
and so just crowd the box with players, but it's not a clever enough tactic against Germany.
Again I assume the reason we do not make players is because we believe we a physically incapable
of doing so, but if that is the we could at least make an effort of mark some of the spaces were
their players are rather than where they are not. Love to see us try that in a game and see it it helps.
They could practice it in training, have one side mark players and another side just crowd the box and see which worked best.
Problem is there would be no big difference in class between the two teams, however we could form an A team
of the best players and B team of the lesser players.
" Problem is when we did win the ball, it was usually very deep in our half." yes and often it's picking it out of theQuote:
Originally Posted by elroy
back of the net, but this goes back to what I have been saying, the way we mark, or rather do not mark.
We are so afraid of them we basically just sit back and ignore their players, I suppose the problem
is if we do try and mark their players we will get torn to shreds. But if you sit back too much you are
on a hiding to nothing. I look at the Germany Sweden match when the Germans were 4-0? up, did they
then sit back thinking job done and then get torn to shreds by the Swedes?
I think we would do better man marking player for player, certainly far better than having 3 making one
man leaving other two free to roam, that seems suicidal.
We generally played pretty well away from home under Trap, a simple point that seems to have been forgotten. We could have nicked a goal last night, we may have even deserved one... but Germany could have scored any amount.
King's interview afterwards was surreal. I was just saying to the folks with me that the third goal probably upset King more than the defeat itself, after all, 2-0 on paper isn't atrocious. Little did I suspect that he'd confirm my thoughts so literally and in actual words.
Not making any substitutions, because he felt that there was a degree of respectability in losing 2-0, was cowardly and more than a little pathetic. If that had been Trap many on here would be up in arms as to how little he rates or trusts our other options in the mold of Hoolahan, Reid, etc. My God like, at least Trap had the balls to play actual wingers.
The 1-6 at Lansdowne was horrendous, no doubt, but I don't think we should kid ourselves into believing last night was any better. That night I think the German's had eight shots on goal and scored six, including a number of long range efforts which usually won't fly in. Forde kept out a few of those last night and we were marginally more threatening in attack, no major difference really in terms of positives.
Is it true he didn't mention Forde's performance at all in the post match interview ?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Here it is...Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fLY...e_gdata_player
I fear Stuggart we are both of a vintage that we remember a Teenage honeymonster bombing down the wing playing right wingback for Everton! For those of you lucky enough to only know Dunne the glory years have a glance at this http://www.toffeeweb.com/players/profiles/Dunne.asp .Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
That is a good point about Traps away record, his away record was excellent indeed I think it was the best of any Irish manager, it was his home record which was the real problem. I think Traps worst was the 4-0 defeat to Spain in Poland and technically Spain were not at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
The only positive to be taken from the match is that Noel will not now be made permanent manager.
Hold on though, there isn't a single poster here who denies Traps away record. DeLorean is being disingenuous there. Trap has the best away record of any Irish manager ever. He also has the worst home record. And I don't think Trap played anyone as good as Germany in an away qualifier. Bari was very good, but years ago and that Italian team wasn't a patch on this German team. Nor were the French.
And it's only a crumb, I know, but we were monumentally better on Friday than the performance in Gdansk where we did nothing. One timid late shot by Keane is all I can remember. Did we even win a corner in that game?
Let's see what King does on Tuesday before the knives come out. I thought it was a bizarre selection but we had years of that under Trap.
I wasn't being disingenuous. My point about our away performances was in response to the perceived level of improved performance on Friday night. There's every chance we would have fared better in that game under Trap anyway, as we often did away from home. I really don't think it was anything to do with a new found freedom of expression.
I also think comparisons to Gdansk are a bit unreasonable. We were playing arguably the best team ever on top of their game, in a game they had to win at a major tournament. Their style of play is also such that we were never likely to muster enough possession to create anything substantial. Spain have done that to far better sides than us, including the Germans in the WC, although obviously the Germans made better use of their limited possession and defended better.
I'm trying to think of the last time we've been behind in a match (for such a long time) and not made a single sub in the 90 mins. It was crazy. Against these teams which enjoy so much more possession our players will always be chasing shadows, not freshening it up with subs is catastrophic.
You were saying people had forgotten about Trap's away performances, yet it's widely acknowledged how good his away record was! Trap wasn't fired for his away record though.
I think Friday's game is utterly meaningless from a comparative or analytical perspective. Germany were a class apart, less tika takka than Spain but equally adept at probing and probably better at using the full width of the pitch. That said, purely objectively, I think we did some things better than we have done in recent years. The real outcome of the debate will only become clear after we've played other teams of a more "normal" standard than Germany, probably a year from now.
Also, I think Traps greatest asset was our organisation without the ball. I think there have been signs that this has been diminishing of late. And in any event everyone everywhere is better without the ball these days. Traps departure doesn't mean we are suddenly going to start leaking like a sieve again, as per Stan. On Friday we played without the ball much the same way as we would have done under Trap, albeit putting more pressure on the man with the ball, as is the accepted style these days. We created more chances in Germany than we did in Sweden and Austria combined.
This isn't a defence of a Kings selection or the lack of substitutions. I personally think he got too hung up about stopping them and their full backs in particular. I always like to think the best way of containing attacking full backs is to give them something to think about defensively. If we had any two of Pilkington, McClean, Reid, Hoolahan, McGeady and Stokes (playing his Celtic-vs-Barcelona role, with Long central) in the positions Doyle and Whelan occupied on Friday I think we'd have countered more effectively without giving up anything on the defensive side. That in itself would have made their full backs more conservative. In theory anyway :)
I know it sounds harsh but in my opinion he really showed how out of his depth he was, which I didn't think that would have been possible so early on. He was basically counting down the minutes hoping to secure a 'credible' 2-0 defeat, by winging it in the form of doing nothing. Trap got hammered, and rightly so, for his decisions and lack thereof against Austria, but at least he was trying to see out a 2-1 win. By the same logic where does that rank King in trying to hold on to a 2-0 defeat just so he wouldn't look too bad in his brief cameo? It really was beyond belief and his interview compounded the mystification.
I was saying that we had recent history for performing better away from home anyway, which would explain any perceived level of improved performance more than any freedom of expression King may have instilled, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Hyperbole.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Yes it was strange/unusual, unprecedented etc, but it wasn't crazy and definitely not catastrophic. Where exactly do you think it went catastrophic after the hour mark?
Look upon the lack of substitutions as damage limitation by a stand-in manager who did alright on the night with a team who had been getting progressively worse for nearly 2 years.
On other matters
We can't compare a stand-in manager's stint to Trap's away games in the first 2 campaigns. That's a patently ridiculous comparison. But it was as good if not better than anything we have done in this campaign and he managed that by making mistakes left right and centre. Just imagine the improvement if he or another manager was capable of rectifying/improving a few obvious situations.
Well, let's see how he does in a home game. I think we can at least agree that home performances against decent teams have been poor, although I think we'll agree to differ on the first half against Austria. I expect well agree that home performances against the likes of Armenia and Macedonia were workmanlike and efficient rather than being particularly good. I know you don't get style marks for a win, but at the same time the standard of performance contains some additional information benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I won't argue for a second about defending a 2 nil defeat. Even at 2 down I thought that a goal was there to be nicked and then it'd have been interesting.
At this stage, will take any sort of win and with a view to Euro 2016 qualifying, hope Turkey don't win on Tuesday.
Unless we get a very good manager, more by accident that design I reckon, the mantra of 'we haven't got the players', will be oft repeated in the next few years...