Republic of Ireland V Russia - Friday, 8th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

It has to be said that the doomsayers have been vindicated to a large extent tonight. I was willing to defer to Trap's greater wisdom on Paul Green, but he just looked out of his depth tonight (although he was put in the unfortunate position of having to do Whelan's job as well - I really hope he was carrying an injury and wasn't just as lost as he looked).

I don't think it's entirely down to Trap's tactics - the players simply didn't do jobs they've shown themselves capable of - but it does raise a lot of questions about the effectiveness of the system when are playing against superior sides. It would be one thing if we were playing 11 men behind the ball, Switzerland-style football, but despite generally playing without the ball we do seem to be set up to score goals.

I don't subscribe to the view that it's impossible to play 4-4-2 against 4-5-1, but for a side that already struggles to impose itself in midfield, it does seem like we need an extra body in there, whether it's by shunting Doyle out to the wing or having Keane play deeper permanently. Personally, I wouldn't mind trying Gibson in an advanced role ahead of Andrews/Green and Whelan.

I think our players' lack of game time was really telling, probably moreso than in previous years. Dunne looked lethargic and Whelan was almost non-existant, although after a rock opening few minutes, Robbie looked really sharp (which begs the question why he's been so poor for Spurs). I am conflicted over Whelan: after tonight, I think it might be a good thing that he could miss Tuesday, but I'm fearful of a midfield in which Green is the most experienced player.

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I'm not a doomsayer charlie, just a bit more realistic and not going to be blinded for my love for the team, but thanks.

I think it was well put, waht does trap gain by playing someone like green, it comes off a lot worse when someone like mccarthy is playing week in week out, to go with an unknown journeyman playing championship level still, and gets absolutely destroyed, i feel sorry for him to be honest. I assume though green will lose his place on tuesday. Btw im not saying mccarthy should start or that.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

There is one bit i agree with on that, what do you think it is?

Ive had a look at the stats and a few days to relax and take stock... i said last year that I had a feeling the way we play under trap that we could be found out some day, if not on top of our game. We were found out friday. Others specifically the more regular members mentioned trap had a plan b and a plan c, of which i showed reservation as we never found it before. He had no plan A nevermind any other plan. Whats comes out since from some of the players says as much too, along with the idea of hoofball. The game we played against them required everyone on top of their game, we let them attack very far forward before we looked like putting in any tackle, they cut through is like a knife through butter, had we harried and harassed them, i wonder would they have looked half as good or felt half as comfortable? I dont think so. The "game plan " trap sets out is open to this happening every so often where we are a bit unlucky or not everyone 100% concentraing and sharp. We could go another 10 games unbeaten but I cuold see this happening again. When was the last time we conceded 3 goals at home competitively? was it as far back as that denmark game in 85? i certainly cant remember in my viewing time.

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The 3-1 to Spain was at home, wasn't it?

I wouldn't be so quick to say "I told you so" about the system. That's not to see there aren't serious flaws in his methodology, but very few teams could expect to perform well when fully half the team failed to even turn up. There's no system that can account for poor performances. I agree we need to evolve and stop playing without the ball 90% of the time, but it's not as if everybody was doing their job and we just got torn apart by a better team. Our players actively colluded with the opposition and that was the real problem.

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Originally Posted by ShamrockIreland

If Stephen Reid just decided to retire like that why did he not do it years before as he was always plaughed with injury. He was fit and playing for West Brom the second last half of last season, but after the allardyce interview was never looked at again.

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I presume you're referring to the Trap interview in which he suggested Reid would struggle to get back to top flight football, in which case I'll break it down for you - Trap said those things last October, when Reid was back on the injury table, had only made two first team appearances in a year and had just suffered yet another setback in his third comeback from potentially career threatening injury. He then went to QPR on loan for a month (Nov-Dec) where me made two appearances, got injured again and went to West Brom on loan in March to May, where he made ten appearances. He then retired in July. There is no suggestion Trap shunned him as his fitness woes meant he was never in serious contention in the first place. Trap had nothing to do with his retirement. I would provide links but all these facts are a mere google away...

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Originally Posted by ShamrockIreland

Andy reid is not a luxury he is talented and better than anyone else in that position. Green and Whelan are quite cleary luxuries if they cannot do the simple jobs in CM right.

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It's arguable whether he can - I'm certain Andy would've been utterly overrun by Russia on Friday if he was playing. Nothing in his game suggests he has the ability to get close to players, break up attacks and play quick ball. Andy's great when we see plenty of the ball, but Ireland never do against top teams. Of course there's an argument to be made about CM but Andy Reid is not the answer - he can't even get a game for Sunderland at the moment anyway. If were looking for options McCarthy, Wilson and, when recovered, Meyler are the future imo.

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Originally Posted by ShamrockIreland

Traps interview again shows him to be pig headed and I expect bar injuries like Doyle to have the same 11. Maybe the others players may not have made a difference but at least we'd have blooded them and would now have McCarthy tied to us. If we lose Tuesday everyone will turn on Trap I've no doubt. Ward couldn't be anymore error prone than Kilbane. Ian Hatre is playing better than Kilbane for reading and is an actual fullback not a winger converted.

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Look it's real easy to pick on Kilbane - after all pretty much everyone and his granny agrees we need a replacement - but it wouldn't have mattered on Friday if Harte or Ward or Staunton or Chris Morris' da played there. He was offered no protection by McGeady and was having to tuck in narrow to counter the three floating forwards, allowing the easy overlap. Same thing happened to O'Shea, repeatedly. For now (ie Tuesday) it's better the left-back devil you know.

The Ian Harte argument makes me laugh as well - half a decade ago he was a laughing stock, now because he can take a set piece and is playing for a middling Reading side he's an option. I have a lot of time for Harte but he is, and always will be, as defensively suspect as Kilbane without nearly as much commitment or familiarity with the rest of the back four.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

The 3-1 to Spain was at home, wasn't it?

I wouldn't be so quick to say "I told you so" about the system. That's not to see there aren't serious flaws in his methodology, but very few teams could expect to perform well when fully half the team failed to even turn up. There's no system that can account for poor performances. I agree we need to evolve and stop playing without the ball 90% of the time, but it's not as if everybody was doing their job and we just got torn apart by a better team. Our players actively colluded with the opposition and that was the real problem.

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Bang on Charlie - it's easy to say at this point it's Trap, the system or whatever (these aspects rightly have to be looked at and Trap has to carry a lot of the blame) but EASILY the biggest disappointment for me was the non-form of some of our most important players. Regardless of lack of game time or knocks, Whelan, Doyle, Dunne, O'Shea and Lawrence were well below par. Maybe we wouldn't have contained Russia either way but these guys were so far from competitive it was unreal.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

The 3-1 to Spain was at home, wasn't it?

I wouldn't be so quick to say "I told you so" about the system. That's not to see there aren't serious flaws in his methodology, but very few teams could expect to perform well when fully half the team failed to even turn up. There's no system that can account for poor performances. I agree we need to evolve and stop playing without the ball 90% of the time, but it's not as if everybody was doing their job and we just got torn apart by a better team. Our players actively colluded with the opposition and that was the real problem.

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ive the one where aldridge got the goal in a 1 - 1 draw and quinn missed a sitter 1 on 1 with zubarretta i think, im also thinking of the time we conceded 3 against portugal, but the 1993 game against spain, is that the one?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I assume though green will lose his place on tuesday.

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Not necessarily. Green didn't excel against either Armenia or Andorra yet started against Russia.

It's unlikely that Trapattoni will make changes to the starting line-up except for those forced upon him - i.e. Doyle's injury. To make too many changes to his line-up would indicate a lack of convinction in his decisions and conflict with how he has built up the team under the last two or so years.

Trapattoni comes across as a very strong willed person. He's placed his confidence in Green and he'll probably persevere with Green until Green proves us all wrong.

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Originally Posted by Alf Honn

Why need anyone on this forum to clarify where the long ball approach comes from when ever-present Glenn Whelan does it himself today:


'It's what the manager sets out and his tactics. Everyone would like to see better football and try and get more passing around the pitch but, if it's not to be and the manager wants something different, then what can you do?'

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/...tardellim.html

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Interesting coming from Whelan since he didn't get close enough to the ball to play any kind of pass regardless of tactics.

I gotta say, there seems to be a lot of players coming out and complaining about the long ball attitude. Seems to be a lot of dissent in the camp at the moment.

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Originally Posted by rebelmusic

I gotta say, there seems to be a lot of players coming out and complaining about the long ball attitude. Seems to be a lot of dissent in the camp at the moment.

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Is it not just Whelan though? Dunne said Trap encouraged them to play more passing football and they needed to be more courageous.

Here were the problems with the game from my perspective

#1 The midfield performance was pathetic
#2 As Dunne pointed out they didn't play football, they had no composure they played a route 1 style.
#3 Trapp waited far too long before doing anything about it.

There is no easy fix for #1 - I just don't think we have the players but Green offers nothing that Andrews or McCarthy can't provide, it's not like Green is even an effective tackler. Hopefully that was a blip for Glenn Whelan. He was truely awful. He was the biggest culprit for the first goal, the lack of awareness in moving away from the ball rather than clearing it was remarkable. I think that may have shot his confidence completely.

If you're not going to use the ball when you get it, if all you do is hoof the ball down the field to the front two and then don't support them then something is seriously wrong as the best you can hope for is a draw. We don't have a midfield which can pressure oppostion, McGeady doesn't play that game - he needs support options and he is given Green & Kilbane! Lawrence is too slow to play a pressure game. Whelan is too slow. Green is a nuisance but little else as he doesn't really win tackles he just buzzes about a lot. What I really don't understand is that we play route 1 but don't have a midfield selection to complement that style. It's half-arsed route 1. Maybe something is being lost in translation.

Route 1 can work, both Germany & Holland made it work at the WC. The difference is their long balls are deliberate, aimed and purposeful, we just hoof & hope like it's 1988.

#3 is unsettling, he doesn't like to use substitiutes but at 2-0 down doing nothing isn't an option.

Nothing wrong with hoofing it every now and again, but you've got to be able to play it properly at least some of the time.

A further problem to add to qwerty's 3 above is that we simply stood off them all game, foolishly thinking lining up in 2 banks of 4 was enough. There was absolutely no pressure on the ball when they had it.

I've only heard Whelan complain, and it's a bit rich given that he didn't even have the composure to hoof it on Friday. He seemed to have absolutely zero time on the ball. Good midfielders make time. Despite Gibson's faults, one of his biggest strengths is receiving the ball well under pressure and protecting it. That ability was sadly lacking in pretty much everyone on Friday. Dunne was right - they need to be braver. Braver showing for the ball and braver when in possession.

Dissent in the camp? If so I hope they have a nice sit down meeting and get all this crap out in the open before the crunch game on Tuesday. The camp seemed to be bristling with optimism before Friday. One massacre in Dublin and it's mutiny?!

If we persist with this long ball hoofball then we need to drop Keane and get some strikers who can leap, head and are about 6 ft 5. Anybody know any Irish Jan Koller's?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I don't understand how you can sync up the criticism of Killer with praise for McGeady.

Yeah, Aiden was good in possession, but he left Killer to fend for himself against two top-quality wide men. The second goal came about because McGeady didn't even make an effort to track Anyukov. Killer was left with a choice between following the winger inside or closing down the full back and to his fault he was caught in two minds and ended up picking up neither man. But the situation should never have developed - McGeady should have tracked his man and allowed Killer to follow his man inside the box.

Compare it to the way the Russians defended that flank. On numerous occasions when Kilbane got forward they simply crowded the two men out and forced mistakes. It's what we should have been doing (and it's what Lawrence and O'Shea did a lot more often on the right). I agree McGeady had some good moments going forward, but so did every Russian player and they still put in their defensive shifts too.

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I'm not going to try and argue against Charlie you make a fair point. I suppose Killer has been making mistakes for a while now, and not just with Aiden ahead of him. I did mention that I felt the Irish wide players drifted infield. If one did it, you could say mindlessness, but when two do it, you have to feel that it's a ploy to try and narrow the options for the opposition middle 3. On the second goal, Aiden certainly could be accused of ball watching, and missed the track of Anyukov, but, Killer's movement was criminal. He followed Dzagoev into the Russian inside right position, into traffic, and left a massive gap behind him. He was caught in two minds certainly, but he should have been calling the left spare centre half (St Ledger in this instance) to cover the space inside him which would have covered the man also. He didn't, followed the man, and by the time he decided to go, Anyukov had acres of space and it was ironic that Dzagoev was the guy who dummied for Kerzhakov to score.
Should McGeady have been covering the space? Certainly. But the responsibility for that flank lies with the full back, and it's not as if the team were suddenly shifted off foot.

That said, Aiden and Killer seemed off with each other all night. I mean at one stage that were seriously fúcking each other out of it in the Russian half. I felt that McGeady was very good going forward, and to be fair to him, he did work hard all night. I've watched the video and 3 times in the last 10 mins McGeady chased lost balls/men challenged and created either a cross or won free kicks from threatening areas. However most people will probably only recall the effort where he chased Zhirkov, but stopped when Zhirkov laid off the ball but regained possession with half the pitch in front of him - a chance that Pogrenyback missed amazingly.

Suppose I feel the fella doesn't get a fair crack of the whip from our supporters when he does relatively well. I mean how many people analyse Duffer on his tracking back? Few I'd imagine.

Aldridge and Cascarino publicly complained about jack's tactics after a qualifyer away to Hungary which finsihed 0-0 around 89. Nothing changed but we did go on to qualify for 90. I wouldn't read too much into Whelan's and Dunnes comments even though both players made sense.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

I presume you're referring to the Trap interview in which he suggested Reid would struggle to get back to top flight football, in which case I'll break it down for you - Trap said those things last October, when Reid was back on the injury table, had only made two first team appearances in a year and had just suffered yet another setback in his third comeback from potentially career threatening injury. He then went to QPR on loan for a month (Nov-Dec) where me made two appearances, got injured again and went to West Brom on loan in March to May, where he made ten appearances. He then retired in July. There is no suggestion Trap shunned him as his fitness woes meant he was never in serious contention in the first place. Trap had nothing to do with his retirement. I would provide links but all these facts are a mere google away...



It's arguable whether he can - I'm certain Andy would've been utterly overrun by Russia on Friday if he was playing. Nothing in his game suggests he has the ability to get close to players, break up attacks and play quick ball. Andy's great when we see plenty of the ball, but Ireland never do against top teams. Of course there's an argument to be made about CM but Andy Reid is not the answer - he can't even get a game for Sunderland at the moment anyway. If were looking for options McCarthy, Wilson and, when recovered, Meyler are the future imo.



Look it's real easy to pick on Kilbane - after all pretty much everyone and his granny agrees we need a replacement - but it wouldn't have mattered on Friday if Harte or Ward or Staunton or Chris Morris' da played there. He was offered no protection by McGeady and was having to tuck in narrow to counter the three floating forwards, allowing the easy overlap. Same thing happened to O'Shea, repeatedly. For now (ie Tuesday) it's better the left-back devil you know.

The Ian Harte argument makes me laugh as well - half a decade ago he was a laughing stock, now because he can take a set piece and is playing for a middling Reading side he's an option. I have a lot of time for Harte but he is, and always will be, as defensively suspect as Kilbane without nearly as much commitment or familiarity with the rest of the back four.

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I'm making the point Harte is still playing as an actual fullback with the best team in the 2nd division whilst Killer plays very rarely. Harte is flawed but he like Irwin and Stan were great at set pieces. O'Shea is not a fullback either his best spot is beside Dunne we all know that. Reid is proven at international level not a world beater but still a class above. I wouldn't play him in the CM. Anyway he won't play for us again so it's pointless really. Yeah Wilson and McCarthy would be good in our team but that won't happen for a while.

It's a massive shame that Martin Rowlands is only just coming back from injury as I think he would be a better option than Green in midfield. Whelan's only started 3 of Stokes 7 games this season (in PL) so I think fitness may be an issue. Green I think just can't cut it against the very best sides (Russia when on form fall into that catagory) especially when outnumbered in midfield. Again the likes of Andrews or Stephen Reid (who's now gone) might be a better option had they not been otherwise injured/retired. McCarthy could have been in contention but I could understand not starting him as, for all his creativity, he might not have been the best at breaking up a numerically and technically superior Russian midfield, he could have been a great option to have on the bench for half time though. If Gibson was getting more games at United I have more confidence in him, but he could end up lacking sharpness (similar to Whelan is at the moment).

I'm still pretty shocked at the lack of invention or ability to change things amongst the players / manager on friday night. Doyle and Keane were getting little change of the Russian center backs, McGeady was able to beat his man (at times his 2 men) but there was noone to cross the ball to - for 70 mins Keane and Doyle won very little in the box and were not even in the box that frequently. I wonder why the likes of Whelan and Lawrence didn't try and shoot from distance more often. Anyone who's seen Russia games could have told you Akinfeev has a massive reluctance to catch the ball and his punching / plaming is very haphazard, why did no one think to shoot from distance more? (Whelan and Lawrence have both scored goals from distance)

I don't know if it was the manager not spotting it, him not communicating with the players, or the players themselves not picking up on it, but the game was going away from us and out players just carried on in rabbits-in-headlights mode. We only got back into the game due to the penalty. It's a shame we dont have an experienced organiser in the center of the park, not necessarily blessed with masses of skill, who could cajole the others into adapting as the game went on (eg Townsend in his prime).

A draw in Zilina and we still have our heads above water, a win there and we're back in business. I still think the Russians may drop points to Macedonia or in Yerevan.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Bang on Charlie - it's easy to say at this point it's Trap, the system or whatever (these aspects rightly have to be looked at and Trap has to carry a lot of the blame) but EASILY the biggest disappointment for me was the non-form of some of our most important players. Regardless of lack of game time or knocks, Whelan, Doyle, Dunne, O'Shea and Lawrence were well below par. Maybe we wouldn't have contained Russia either way but these guys were so far from competitive it was unreal.

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I actually thought O'Shea did well - kept a lock on Arshavin for a lot of the night and was the least effective of their front three as a result. Lawrence was targeted but he did struggle. I didn't think Doyle did too badly - he didn't get as much protection from the referee as he's used to, although his touch wasn't as good as we've come to expect.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

ive the one where aldridge got the goal in a 1 - 1 draw and quinn missed a sitter 1 on 1 with zubarretta i think, im also thinking of the time we conceded 3 against portugal, but the 1993 game against spain, is that the one?

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Yeah, the 1994 qualifiers. Fairly sure it was home but alas I'm too lazy to google.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Is it not just Whelan though? Dunne said Trap encouraged them to play more passing football and they needed to be more courageous.

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I think what Dunne said was more that Trap doesn't discourage a passing game rather than he encourages it.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Should McGeady have been covering the space? Certainly. But the responsibility for that flank lies with the full back, and it's not as if the team were suddenly shifted off foot.

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Agree Killer dealt with it badly but Anyukov was definitely McGeady's responsibility - his decision not to track back meant Kilbane had to make a split-second decision who to follow, and in the end he got caught in two minds. Any time Kilbane got forward he was shadowed every step of the way by Dzagoev, who had an excellent game.

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Suppose I feel the fella doesn't get a fair crack of the whip from our supporters when he does relatively well. I mean how many people analyse Duffer on his tracking back? Few I'd imagine.

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I can't think of any goals off-hand that we've conceded down Duff's flank, whether he's been playing on the left or right. He's an outstanding player offensively and defensively. If he still had his pace he'd be world class.

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Originally Posted by ShamrockIreland

I'm making the point Harte is still playing as an actual fullback with the best team in the 2nd division whilst Killer plays very rarely.

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Harte plays centre half for Reading, if I'm not mistaken.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

It's a massive shame that Martin Rowlands is only just coming back from injury as I think he would be a better option than Green in midfield.

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Neither of them are good enough to be in the Irish squad. Andrews, Whelan, Gibson, McCarthy, Fahey, Meyler, Wilson, Maguire, Andy Reid and Steven Reid (retired I know) are/will be all far better options.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I actually thought O'Shea did well - kept a lock on Arshavin for a lot of the night and was the least effective of their front three as a result. Lawrence was targeted but he did struggle. I didn't think Doyle did too badly - he didn't get as much protection from the referee as he's used to, although his touch wasn't as good as we've come to expect.


Yeah, the 1994 qualifiers. Fairly sure it was home but alas I'm too lazy to google.


I think what Dunne said was more that Trap doesn't discourage a passing game rather than he encourages it.


Agree Killer dealt with it badly but Anyukov was definitely McGeady's responsibility - his decision not to track back meant Kilbane had to make a split-second decision who to follow, and in the end he got caught in two minds. Any time Kilbane got forward he was shadowed every step of the way by Dzagoev, who had an excellent game.

I can't think of any goals off-hand that we've conceded down Duff's flank, whether he's been playing on the left or right. He's an outstanding player offensively and defensively. If he still had his pace he'd be world class.


Harte plays centre half for Reading, if I'm not mistaken.

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I was at the Spainsh game where we went 3 down within 25 minutes. Spain were flying. we stemmed the attacks and got into the game. Whelan who had only come back from some serious injuries and was off the pace and was getting old. Sheridan got the goal that nobody even cared about until it all came down to the maths in the final game. The difference then was we still had some decent players to come in for the likes of Whelan. Harte may well play CB now I think he was playing there for Carlisle last year. He won't play for us again anyway ;)

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Also meant to finish on that, that the fact that trap doesn't have attack minded midfielders in the squad is proof that he doesn't have an alternative plan if we concede a couple or go down in a case where we drastically need to change things.

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how exactly would you define Darron Gibson or Keith Fahey?