That means we can pinch him at the 11th hour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Printable View
That means we can pinch him at the 11th hour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
The FAI have already despatched Don Givens to slap him in the face and question his commitment.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
He's Albanian,
give him 2 slaps.
Well they'll take anyone...Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
#Hypocrisy
is not and never will be eligible* according toQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
http://sport.stv.tv/football/interna...y-for-england/
'home' nations opted out of the residency clause apparently, only their education clause is valid (5 years before 18)
* unless they rip up their gentlemans agreement
Still not the first FA to not have a clue about eligibility
Arteta was never eligible. He had played underage for Spain, which in itself didn't count for anything, but rule 18.1 subsection a (as was in place at the time) said that at the time he played underage for Spain he'd needed to have been eligible for England too. But he only "qualified" for England years later, through residency.
If that young United fella has played underage for anyone I expect that would apply to him too.
I think the article numbers have changed but the rules have stayed the same. Danny?
The article is nr 6 for single nationality - multi association eligibility, but the UK associations have made their own version (the UK agreement) and dropped the residency path to eligibility, almost completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
You don't see that in the FIFA statutes but the UK agreement is legal tender. It's virtually impossible for a player with no UK bloodline connection, to be eligible to play for any of the UK teams. If this agreement was not in place, the UK associations would be acting like savages, kidnapping, grabbing, tapping up any UK born player who just happened to reside in their part of the kingdom.
Its just the attitude of some English commentators that bugs me, like Januzaj couldn't possibly turn down the chance to play for England. There should be more time spent by such people finding out what the player might actually want.
Even if he was a complete mercenary with no connection with any country, you'd think Belgium would be the more rational choice. Obviously he's not a mercenary and he's not eligible for England anyway, but just saying...
So we're saying, eg.England, can never claim a player on residency grounds?
Fair enough (& morally right IMO), but could Cudicini not have been called up at one time?
He's a good player. I hope his sympathies bring him to Belgium for just that reason, since he'll be an international non-entity with the other crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
And let's not even talk about Albania.
Everywhere around Europe, there will be people throwing a pair of football boots up onto overhead electricity lines, in support of Albania and Januzaj.
Is the home nations agreement published, geysir?
Is Stuart O'Keefe any links to us does anybody know?
I watched Shane O'Neill yesterday for Colorado , decent shift
It's not in any obvious place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
This is the orig agreement from 1993
UK Agreement
The last part
'A player who holds a current British passport but whose natural parents and natural grandparents were born outside the United Kingdom is eligible to play for the home country of his choice'
applied to Channel Islanders etc. However, I think in theory, under that wording, a foreign born player could get a UK passport after 5 years UK residency and declare for one of the Associations. But at some stage after 2003, the 4 association got together to fine tune that part of the agreement, to rule out the possibility of gaining eligibility though acquiring a UK passport. At least matters were clarified by 2008 when there were calls for Nacho Nova for Scotland and Arteta for England,
As far as I can tell, Januzaj hasn't represented any international team at any level as of yet, neither competitively nor in friendly. Irrespective of that, however, it appears he'll never be eligible to play for England unless he can fulfill an internal British associations requirement for five years of education in the UK country for whom he wishes to play. Satisfying such a requirement is extremely unlikely at this point of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'm thinking that even had Arteta not lined out competitively for Spain at under-age level before later acquiring British citizenship (not sure if official acquisition was ever confirmed, but that's besides the point), he'd still have been ineligible to play for England as he hadn't fulfilled five years of education in the country.
STV's Grant Russell wrote the following on the Januzaj matter: http://sport.stv.tv/football/242115-...y-for-england/
Not that there has been any suggestion from the player himself that he'd even consider playing for England anyway. I suspect such fanciful talk is more indicative of English arrogance than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Russell
I've sent Grant Russell a tweet in the hope he might be able to direct me towards a publication specifically or officially documenting the internal agreement between the British associations.
That's correct. The latest revisions to FIFA's Statutes and Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes came into force on the 31st of July this year, although the regulations governing eligibility to play for representative teams did not change. They've been numbered 5 to 8 in the last three publications since August of 2011, as opposed to 15 to 18 in the 2010 edition and publications prior. They can be found on page 63 of the 2013 edition here: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/AFFe..._E_Neutral.pdfQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Just clarifying, that Arteta/Cudicini could never have been called up either, on the basis of this '93 opt-out.
There's nothing in that 1993 agreement that definitively rules out the right of a player with an acquired British nationality, being eligible and declaring for any of the 4 associations.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
At some stage after 1993, the 4 associations had to meet and agree on an interpretation that ruled out foreign players who could acquire British nationality through residency.
Ah, fair enough.
Anyway, anyone care to put even The Guarniad out of their misery...
http://www.theguardian.com/football/...zaj?CMP=twt_gu
I hope the kid lines out for Albania if that's where his heart is and not Belgium because it will give him more chance of playing major tournaments.
Is Albania where his heart lies though? Has the player himself indicated a preference? Geysir's earlier post quoting the head of the Albanian football association suggested that Januzaj has no interest in representing Albania.
If he was to represent a FIFA-recognised association now, I assume, in accordance with regulation 5.2, that would rule out any future opportunity he might have to play for a later-recognised Kosovan national team?
The general secretary of Kosovo's football federation had the following to say of the case: http://daswunderkind.net/manchester-...QbbZt5MbcAv.99
Why would representing an unrecognised Kosovan entity render him ineligible for other national teams though?Quote:
"Only the player can decide where to play and we will respect any his decision. We cannot ignore the fact that the player has Belgium statehood and also is Albanian Nationality, it’s depend only from him a[n]d his family," he said.
"We would be happy if FIFA and UEFA admitted FFK and the player could choose for his country too. We have contacts with all football players from Kosovo even with the young age groups players, but it would be ungrateful to ask from them to play for our national team now and to prevent them to play for other national teams."
As for the agreement between the British association relating to the five-years-of-education requirement, Grant Russell got back to me but was also unaware of the agreement's public availability:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Russell
I think the only cases where Januzaj would be able to represent a Kosovar team should they be admitted to UEFA is if a) he hasn't represented anyone, or b) he's represented the association that currently administers that territory, which it seems would be Serbia.
That would make sense. Players who'd played for Serbia & Montenegro later went on to play for both Serbia and Montenegro respectively depending on their (new) nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
For a Kosovan player like Lorik Cana, however, who has been capped 70 times by Albania, I assume a future opportunity to represent a recognised Kosovan team will never arise, due to his Albanian caps, despite his public petitioning for recognition of Kosovo.
How far does the free pass go for capped players, declaring for another newly recognised country?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Surely Albanian players would be allowed to declare for their beloved Kosova. With Kosova out in the cold now, wouldn't a Kosovar player be more likely to declare for Albania, than the hated Serbia?
I believe he wouldn't be allowed. It's analogous to if Free Derry declared itself an independent state - James McClean would still be tied to the Republic of Ireland regardless of his hypothetical allegiance to the new nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I'm willing to be corrected on this but I think it only extends to players whose previous association has effectively ceased to exist or morphed into something else, such as it was with Yugoslavia. Given that Albania would not have changed in character, I don't think they'd be allowed, although perhaps FIFA would allow common sense to prevail and allow them to move.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
But Stephen Ireland is still eligible for the People's Republic of Cork, right?
We won't go to war over it but after a bit of reading I'm pretty certain that any Kosovo eligible player will be allowed to declare for Kosovo, within a window of opportunity though for already capped players. That's how it was for Montenegro, there were no restrictions saying the eligible capped player could only have been capped with Serbia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
The terms of Article 8 applied without any stated restriction.
I hadn't been aware of this. Can you point me to some further reading on the matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Actually, it's just common sense, considering that only players from the tiny Serbian ethnic community inside Kosovo declare for Serbia, the rest declare for anybody but Serbia, but mostly Albania.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Kosovo stuff
Kosovo status
It is understood that once Kosovo is a full FIFA member, any eligible players will have a window of opportunity in which to switch allegiances from their current teams to Kosovo.
Montenegro stuff Montenegro wiki page
the chapter Current Squad
In international football, players can normally only play for one national team once they play in all or part of any match recognised as a full international by FIFA. However, an exception is made in cases where one or more newly-independent states are created out of a former state. Based on current FIFA rules, a player will be eligible to play for Montenegro, even if he had previously represented Serbia and Montenegro or any other country, if at least one of the following statements applies:[9]
- He was born in Montenegro.
- At least one of his parents and/or at least one of his grandparents was born in Montenegro.
- He has lived in Montenegro continuously for any two-year period.
Due to mixed ancestries, it is likely that a high percentage of the players eligible to play for Montenegro will also remain eligible to play for Serbia, and vice versa. However, once they have played for either Serbia or Montenegro in any competitive fixture, they are no longer eligible to play for any other nation.
There is a linked reference to a FIFA pdf document on the status transfer of players, maybe there is something more in that document.
But I'm satisfied enough not to pursue it any further :)
Did this actually happen though?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
No Rory Donnelly:
Ross Glendinning
Linfield
18.05.93
5
Connor Brennan
Kilmarnock
2
Defenders
Luke McCullough
Doncaster Rovers
15.02.94
1
Rhys Sharpe
Derby County
17.10.94
2
Adam Thompson
Watford / Southend
28.09.92
10
Rory McKeown
Kilmarnock
08.04.93
9
Jamie Sendles-White
QPR
10.04.94
3
Liam Donnelly
Fulham
07.03.96
2
Midfielders
Carl Winchester
Oldham Athletic
12.04.93
7
Josh Carson
York City
03.06.93
9
David Morgan
Notts Forest
04.07.94
2
Greg Tempest
Notts County
28.12.93
2
Kirk Millar
Oldham Athletic
07.07.92
5
Ryan Brobbell
Middlesbrough / York City
05.03.93
3
Jonny Gorman
Leyton Orient
26.10.92
3
Paul McElroy
Hull City
07.07.94
1
Seanan Clucas
Bristol Rovers
08.11.92
9
Forwards
Shay McCartan
Burnley
18.05.94
--
James Gray
Accrington Stanley
26.06.92
7
Jamie Reid
Exeter City
15.07.94
2
Michael Duffy
Derry City
28.07.94
--
The North's U-21 squad?
:confused:
Are the one's born in Britain 'eligible' for us too...
:rolleyes:
I had a quick look and did a word-search through the PDF document (Regulations for the Status and Transfer of Players) mentioned in geysir's post but it doesn't refer to the Montenegro matter at all. I can't see any reference to a window of opportunity permitting declaration for Montenegro by Montenegrin players otherwise already tied to an association, be that to Serbia or an other. There doesn't appear to be any mention of a general rule to cover such a situation either. The only eligibility-related content in that document appears to be a re-iteration of the regulation governing eligibility to play for associations sharing a common nationality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Of course it happened, previously capped players declared for Montenegro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
You only suppose there was a restriction. There's absolutely no proof there were any restrictions, not a dickeybird, not even the teenienst weeniest whisper anywhere, to a FIFA/UEFA restriction. I'm sorry Charlie, but I can't put any import on a supposition which just does not make sense.
Article 18 applied as noted in the (reputable) wiki page and any capped player who qualified under article 18 was allowed to declare. It just so happens that Montenegro did not have players capped outside Serbia & Montenegro at senior level, but if they did have, there were no restrictions in place stopping them from availing of the open window as referenced also in the reputable Kosovo news report.
Inconvenient that everything isn't wrapped up in a christmas gift for you I know, but those are the cards we have to use:)
I assumed you'd know I was referring to players capped by nations other than Serbia & Montenegro, since I have already recognised that some of those players made up the first Montenegrin side.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I suppose nothing except that FIFA would apply the same rules it applies across the board, which state that any player who has represented a member association in a competitive international is not entitled to represent another.Quote:
You only suppose there was a restriction. There's absolutely no proof there were any restrictions, not a dickeybird, not even the teenienst weeniest whisper anywhere, to a FIFA/UEFA restriction. I'm sorry Charlie, but I can't put any import on a supposition which just does not make sense.
Aha, perhaps that is enough to satisfy you, but luckily I am not content to settle for mere easy answers and unsupported statements in wikipedia articles.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Alas, if we dig deeper we find that the document linked in the "reputable" makes no reference whatsoever to an open window of any sort. In fact, it does nothing except restate the existing Rule 18, which we know binds a player to the first association he's represented at the threshhold level.
If we dig deeper still further, and in my lust for truth I have done just that, we discover through the (reputable) New York Times that Sepp Blatter has explicitly stated that players like Xherdan Shaqiri would be unable to switch allegiances were a Kosovar team officially recognised. More digging enlightens us to the fact that Sepp Blatter made this claim directly to (reputable) New York Times journalist James Montague.
No doubt common sense suggests that it would only be right and fair that all Kosovar expatriates would be given a window of opportunity to declare for their nation. However, relying on FIFA to bring common sense to bear is a fool's errand at the best of times :)
Isn't it article 6 (formerly 16), and not the old article 18, that is mentioned in the PDF document cited? There is nothing else in the document relating to international eligibility, as far as I can see. That article wouldn't even have applied to the Montenegrin situation as it applies only to associations sharing a common nationality, such as the British associations.
I do appreciate that it's with a heavy heart that you quote from the soccer column in a US newspaper and the disreputable Sepp Blatter, with saying that the Swiss Kosovars would not be allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
No matter what others may think, there's no total loss of credibility with using a handy quote from Sepp.
However, what does it take to trump Sepp? a quote from a source in the Daily Sun perhaps? or a Daily Mirror rumour mill piece?:)
In Sporting intelligence (original thinking, informed comment, no froth no spin)
"FIFA and UEFA have both agreed that players such as Shaqiri and Lazio’s Lorik Cana, who plays for Albania, can play for Kosovo. This would not go down well with the national associations in Albania or Switzerland, who face losing a swathe of top players and the latest inexplicable decision smacks of suiting everyone else bar the isolated Kosovans."
The writer of the piece is Steve Menary the author of ‘Outcasts! The Lands That FIFA Forgot’. Credibility personified.
But of course who knows, maybe you caught the only truthful sentence Sepp has said in the last 5 years :)
The Wiki statement stands, but maybe you can find proof that FIFA issued a restrictive window amnesty. I certainly found no proof of any. I'd say it was not an issue at all before 2002 as the parent / grand parent connections were not used that much by football nations before the East Europe split and even later. But it's easy to see that the Kosovo situation is more complicated than others, considering that the vast majority of their players turned their back on Serbia, the usual situation (a mere splitting of the player resources) doesn't apply.
Sepp utters plenty of truthful statements. One of my particular favourites is "the situation is such that all Northern Irish footballers could opt to play for both teams, given that they have a birthright to an Irish passport." :)
Blatter might not be a reputable character but I'd say he has a pretty firm grasp on what the organising committee's views on the subject would be, being as they are his own views to begin with. FIFA might create an exception to the rules for Kosovo but, seeing as no precedent has yet been established, we can only speculate at this juncture.
What we can be sure if is that FIFA statutes only allow for one instance in which a player can represent two separate national associations in competitive A internationals:There is obviously a special instance here, and it is when a new association is formed on the former territory of another association. It seems to be consistent with the aforementioned rules that any new association that is formed would be entitled to cap previous representatives of the former association, provided they had permanent nationality and fulfilled any territorial requirement to be eligible for the breakaway association. There is no such clarity when a player tied to a third, unrelated association should decide they would like to change associations.Quote:
. If a Player who has been fi elded by his Association in an international match in accordance with art. 5 par. 2 permanently loses the nationality
of that country without his consent or against his will due to a decision
by a government authority, he may request permission to play for another
Association whose nationality he already has or has acquired.
You will note, I saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I did remember those wise words from Sepp around 2008.Quote:
the only truthful sentence Sepp has said in the last 5 years
But since then, sadly Sepp has not hit the same heights of clarity,profoundity and truthfulness.
I thought he was bang on with the Ronaldo-slavery issue.