Could have been a compromise situation, Mick wanted a release clause, club says yes, but not in the middle of our season.
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Could have been a compromise situation, Mick wanted a release clause, club says yes, but not in the middle of our season.
Joey O'Brien.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Your first post and subsequent accusation of whataboutery, is whataboutery, no?Quote:
Really doesn't seem like you do. Feel free to specifically point out where I've engaged in whataboutery in regards to Gibson.
No. I'll add some paranthesis to my comment to help you.Quote:
I know you've totally misunderstood me, yes.
"On one hand you're saying that (support/media) said Gibson was poor for Ireland and that he should be thankful to Trap for picking him. And on the other you're saying that these poor performances helped him get a good move. Doesn't quite add up."
Ferguson was grooming Moyes for years and appointed him as successor. He sells Moyes a player a year beforehand. Gibson's international appearances and battling Green for a place on the bench are of little relevance, and are indeed a possible hindrance to any move. Hypothetical conversation (to be honest I doubt if his international credentials would even be mentioned):Quote:
Thanks for actually answering the question. That's your assertion, I don't think it's on the money. As I've said international recognition mattered with Gibson because he barely made a dent in the Utd first team (cue 'CL semi-final' etc etc) and was way down the pecking order when shipped out.
DM: Gibson any good.
AF: Yes, good passing range, can score a goal.
DM: How come he can't get in the Ireland team ahead of Whelan and journeymen like Andrews and Green?
AF: Er...
So, we're just a back-up option for Brian then?...Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
In seriousness, isn't he being a bit presumptious there?
But Cole did actually crash his car. Actually, no, wait, that was Jermaine Pennant...Quote:
Originally Posted by Yard of Pace
Darron certainly isn't immune from those notions of grandeur himself. Anyway, I think you're unfair on Whelan. What's he said to suggest he has lofty self-impressions?Quote:
I'm prepared to cut Gibson some slack. He seems like a winner. I'd rather him than some useless plodder who got ideas above his station and would lick Trap's hole at any opportunity just because he was getting his game. Like Glenn Whelan. :D
Any youngish manager worth their salt is going to hang on in club management.
More interesting and more lucrative!
What Liam Brady said seems to be more and more insightful. It could all be a ruse with JD and the boys already signed up with MON.
What did Brady say?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Said he wouldn't want the job cos our players is crapQuote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
http://www.independent.ie/sport/liam...-29571578.html
in fairness to Whelan he was actually very critical of Trap and said he'd prefer an extra man in midfield. I think he's past his best for us and would be remembered more fondly if Tap hadn't flogged him to near death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yard of Pace
Right I've thought and thought about...
Bielsa.
End of.
I simply don't agree with anyone who says we haven't got the players to compete against second and third seeded teams. This is the biggest fallacy shooting the rounds at the moment.
Open to correction, but don't think he's ever retired at any level. Maybe he made himself unavailable for period? But as I understand it O'Brien has about 5 per cent of his original knee cap left. What a mercenary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
No. I accused you of whataboutery after you brought in 'early retirements' and players pulling out through injury in a conversation about Gibson. That's whataboutery, me calling you on it is not. Be specific or leave it alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
That's still not what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
For the final time. Separately - Gibson was chosen by Trap at a time when the guy clearly didn't have to pick him. He doesn't have to be slavishly thankful, it's just worth bearing in mind when the two subsequently have a mad falling out.
To whit: witness the players on Twitter yesterday thanking Trapattoni for giving them their chance. This isn't a complex point.
Subsequently those performances - good, bad, indifferent, fantastic, bogging - helped get him a move because when he was barely in a Utd squad, he was always in an Ireland squad. Disagree all you want but...
...but I wish you'd do it with something more substantial than a bit of playwriting and 'sure Moyes and Fergie are BFFs!' None of that makes Gibson's international career as irrelevant as you're making out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Look Darron, just tell us what happened in Poland and we'll call it quits, ok?
Big time. European international football is as congested as it has ever been. Beneath a handful of top class teams - Spain, Germany, Holland, maybe Italy - everyone else, bar the minnows, should be looking to win every game. Sure there's only a hair's breadth between all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Now with qualification for the Euros more open for ever, the idea we can't compete is laughable. Every game - bar a few - will be a lottery, but that was no different when we went to Poland. Barring a nightmare draw, France 2016 is there for the taking.
From two centre mids, to five. I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Ignoring the front runners.....
What about Glenn Hoddle? A bit of a wildcard and he has had his ups and downs but maybe worth an interview?
Sean O'Driscoll? Did a good job at Forest & liked to see the ball in the floor.
Curbishley? He must be bored out and itching for a shot at management again.
Are they sexy enough for the FAI? Will they get bums on seats early on. I really would be surprised if we went exotic. MO'N odds are 1/2 now so maybe he will get the nod. If it his him I hope John Robertson is part of the package. Martin did seem to struggle without him at Sunderland.
- Joey O'Brien withdrew from the current squad so that he could play for his club and manage his treatment regime. Some question putting club over country. I'm well aware of his injury record thanks, it's you who appears to need to get a bit more clued up.
- Your whataboutery is your claiming that I whataboutered when my post was but a reflection of your post from the opposite side.
- I give up. It's clear as day what you said and how I responded.
- The facts are that they are great pals and one has been grooming the other for the past 4+ years to succeed him. I feel Gibson's international successes or failures had an insignificant impact on him moving to Everton.
I'm not Darron nor have I even met him. Compare his twitter post if you don't believe me. You are at least clued up on them.
I don't understand why this misconception is still going. Trap had a provisional squad of 29, from which he had to cut 6. He chose to leave out O'Brien because he's managing an injury and because he probably wouldn't have made the final squad anyway. Nobody ever said he was injured, they said he was managing his injury.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Quote:
Originally Posted by back of the net
That is our lowest ranking since 1993 which is as far back as the Fifa ranking seems to go.
We were ranked 6th in in 1993!!!
We have had one hell of a fall form grace.
Two ways for a potential manager to look at it, 1) The only way is up. 2) It's a poisoned chalice.
I think they should take the first option, ie we are currently worst than the sum of our parts and there is much room for a new manager to come in and make a name for himself moving us back up the rankings.
I'm warming to the prospect of MON. While I know he is rigid in his tactics and personnel selection, he tends to pick the 11 best players at his disposal (even if that means playing a CM at RB i.e. Craig Gardner). Furthermore, he's gotten the best out of McGeady and McClean in the past and there exists a strong possibilty he will entrust Wes Hoolahan with a starting role as part of a 4-4-1-1.
He's also diplomatic and a good motivator and I could envisage those traits being applied to great effect in the current environment of the Irish squad.
Given the restricted playing pool we have, it could be construed that Darron Gibson and Anthony Stokes are willing to give their international careers a crack again. It's worth remembering that Stokes is still only 24 and has a big season ahead of him for Celtic. He could prove a strong alternative to our current options, or he could disappear into the wilderness.
Given the step forward made by the IFA in employing Michael O'Neill, the FAI hiring Martin O'Neill could really negate a lot of the results of that appointment. I think the appointment of MON would have a strong impact on the current NI/ROI and IFA/FAI situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
To make sure he didn't have to turn the job down?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
The only one who appears to be confused is you. You've basically repeated what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
No. He didn't withdraw, he was told he could leave because he wasn't needed. He didn't put club over country - his manager asked for him to be returned and it was granted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Have fun splitting hairs. He was named in the 29. Medical teams decided that he could do with the international break off to continue treatment. Manager says fine we have plenty of cover. Plays for West Ham the next day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
BTW I'm not having a go at Joey. I'm fine with him managing his serious injuries. But it is clearly a situation of club first.
Besides, I don't think it would be fair on Joey O'Brien to imply he was unprofessional or uncommitted as a result of a desire to manage a long-term injury problem that has kept him out of the game for so long and nearly ended his career. He's lucky he's still playing any football at all. Naturally, he'd like to prolong his playing career and livelihood as best he can; that doesn't necessarily equate to putting club over country either. Very harsh to try and fault the lad for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Oh no...Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Oh dear...Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Oh thank goodness. Sorry CD, you're tagging me out...*hops in taxi*Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
What a sad little man you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
And here's the FAI statment Charlie.
But no, he didn't withdraw...Quote:
Clarification on Joey O’Brien: Our medical teams were speaking prior to Joey’s withdrawal from the Irish squad. A decision was reached based on Joey’s serious knee injury sustained two years ago, and he requires treatment during the international window next week after a patellar tendon flare up. The manager has given his blessing to this as we have sufficient cover on this occasion. He may feature for his club tomorrow.
Just bantering, would rather take the sting out of this. After all I could tee off on you seemingly not reading what I wrote, but also having the discourtesy to misrepresent it (repeatedly) even though I went to pained lengths to spell it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
But I'm just looking to get this thread back on track so everyone else can go back to talking Joey O'Brien or Trap's successor. So that's it. My money's on a Moyes/Fergie dream-team. Irwin3, you know what I'm taking about...
If you'll bother to read the rest of the statement you've posted, you'll see that a decision was made by the management which O'Brien clearly agreed with. Are you seriously implying O'Brien put his club over his country?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Martin O'Neill has stated to Clive Woodward on 5Live that nobody has yet contacted him in relation to replacing Trap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6delVESX2hg
Well, nobody from the "Irish FA" anyway. Maybe he's just being coy and someone from the FAI has gotten in touch...
You can't let it go. Nowhere have I misrepresented what you said. I explained it earlier with the parentheses.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
You were saying that people thought he was ****e because of his performances but that by the same token that these performances helped him to get a move.
Quote:
This despite Gibson's continued selection being held up by a section of support/media as an example of Trap's muppetry.
Quote:
Moyes had to weigh it up carefully - you really don't think the consistent seal-of-approval from an international manager didn't feed into that?
Keep digging. The statement is in black and white. It agrees with my summation above. The medical teams made the decision and the manager gave his blessing since we had sufficient cover. It's very simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I'm not implying it, I've already stated it above. With his injury record, the fact that he has to protect his livelihood plus the fact that he isn't a starter, it was agreed by all parties that Joey could choose to withdraw from the squad, play for West Ham and receive his treatment during the break.
Trap's replacement may not have as tough a job qualifying for Euro 2016 as I'd feared. Greenscene have just published this seeding predictions list: http://greenscene.me/2013/09/euro-20...g-predictions/
It potentially sees us as the highest ranked team in the third pot based on World Cup 2010 results (weighted at 20 per cent of the ranking points total), Euro 2012 results (weighted at 40 per cent) and World Cup 2014 results (also weighted at 40 per cent). For some reason, I'd thought our current FIFA ranking within UEFA would play a more significant role in dictating our seeding. If our seeding was dependent on that, we'd be in pot four.
Or... he was fit enough to play for his club, like most other players in the squad did that weekend, and the management decided that the following week would be better spent resting than flying around Europe to sit on the bench? That's not putting club before country - that's acknowledging that not everybody can play that much football in such a short time when recovering from an injury.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
But is that to lack commitment in the same way it might be said that Gibson's commitment has been suspect? Isn't that what you were implying?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
We're singing from the same hymn sheet except I define it as club over country. He doesn't really have a choice due to the limits of his body and the fact that he has to earn a livelihood, but to me, that is exactly what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Yeah, I gave a variety of examples of other players in different circumstances making choices to withdraw from selection.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Obviously, the difference is that Joey has little to no choice. Gibson's choice is not limited by an injury concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
I never wrote that. I wrote Gibson selections was decried by a small section of support and media. I wrote Moyes would value Trap's opinion and faith in a player he's looking at purchasing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
That's Trap's opinion he values and that which he see with his own eyes (since he likely saw Gibson play for Ireland). Not the media or the fans'.
I've explained this three times, and you swung and missed each time while being
fairly insulting. That's ok, the door's swung both ways but you haven't been able to take much stick back. And if you still can't grasp the very, very obvious distinction between what I wrote and what you think it means, I doubt you ever will.
Steven Reid was another player, like Joey O'Brien, troubled by long-term injury problems, so a comparison between his virtually forced withdrawal from international duty and Gibson's voluntary opting out is again unfair. And you weren't seriously questioning the commitment of Damien Duff (100 caps in 14 years of service) because he retired from country before club at the age of 33, are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
I've quoted what you said. It's in plain English. You said this:Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
This clearly implies that people were saying he was ****e, which they indeed were saying. I'm not swinging at anything. You are refusing to acknowledge your own words.Quote:
This despite Gibson's continued selection being held up by a section of support/media as an example of Trap's muppetry.
If Moyes valued Trap's opinions then he would have bought Paul Green and Keith Andrews since both were on free transfers and both were rated above Gibson.
I think the one being insulting is the one suggesting that the other is attempting whataboutery, that the other is Darron and that you can tag team someone in to save you from dealing with them.
Of course not. Like I said, I simply gave a list of players who made choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Duff - retired after years of service at 33. Continues to play well at high level for club.
O'Brien - injury problems mean he has to manage schedule.
Reid - retired to focus on club career but remained open to a recall.