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Ireland v Germany 2002Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsman
Ireland v Spain 2002
Ireland v Romania 1999
Three examples right there. Does he have to concede a goal to have played poorly? Is he to be credited for a clean sheet? That's a crude way of weighing it up, compared to analysing the player himself.
I'm not saying he's a poor defender because of x amount of goals conceded or whatever. I'm saying he's a poor defender because he's never impressed me.
Not to mention the number of times he's been caught out by a long diagonal pass over his head.
Was it Harte that was caught out against Switzerland in Dublin, or had he just been subbed? Breen messed up for the first goal.
It is now a well know fact that he was carrying an injury during the world cup, it was McCarthy's choice to play him ( and McCarthy's fault not to have had sufficient cover in the squad -or not to play Kilbane there instead ), Ian Harte did his best under the circumstances. I think that rules out the first two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donal81
For the third one, I had a look at the FAI website and there is no record of us playing Romania in 1999.....
No, not for himself alone but certainly as a group of defenders -yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donal81
I agree that he has played some bad games for Ireland but I still think he is worthy of his place in the squad. I think Kerr should be big enough to include him, even if he doesn't get on with him. If he didn't get on with the other players then that would be a different matter.
Now your just making excuses for him. I remember that game against romania, may not have been in 99 though. All the same he's been **** poor more times than hes been good, and no im not going to start naming all the games this has happened in as i cant remember all the dates etc, but from someone who has gone to plenty of irish matches during the years, there arent many times when ive come out saying he played well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsman
Thats not too say that others dont frustrate aswell, but harte more so than most, at least o'shea et al can do a decent defensive job.
I meant the game we played in Romania. I thought it was for the 2000 qualifiers, maybe it was for the 1998 World Cup, don't attempt to prove a point that way, it was a while ago, ffs. That's a cheap way to score points, mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsman
Good enough as cover or a squad player but thats it i think.
Like i said ciaran, if he sorts his attitude out he can be ok cover(considering our limited resources, but id rather push finnan out to the left than have harte there, Finnan has played there and done well there in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by ciaran76
I never said Ian Harte didn't do his best. He played terribly, that's what I said. You asked me for examples, I gave them to you. Whatever injury he was carrying, it mustn't have been too severe for McCarthy to start him in every game. Also, I don't care what injury he had, he failed completely to pick up Morientes for the Spanish goal. He didn't even bother to check for Klose during the German game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsman
1) the romania match - did roy not miss a penalty that night, which based on blaming harte for the spain match above, would make roy at fault for romania.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donal81
2) the spain match - it was breen who failed to pick up morientes. harte was perfectly positioned for that goal.
3) klose's goal was mainly harte's fault, but also gary kelly allowed ballack easily take the ball nearly 40 yards and under no pressure he picked out the cross for the goal.
plus if we are blaming harte for spain, do we give him the credit for having the balls for the penalty against iran.
harte, like kilbane up til about a year ago is too easy a scapegoat. there are plenty of other players who have made errors like those mentioned, but dont get half the abuse - and that includes duff and the two keanes
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinR
Nothing was said about harte missing the penalty in the spain game? so how would that relate to Roy missing one??
And come on, dont even start getting on duff's back, god almighty the rubbish some people talk. Duff is class, how could you accuse him of making too many errors in the same way kilbane and harte do???
No he wasn't. Breen was beaten to the header alright but as I remember it Harte failed to pick up the thrower. That's what galled me about that goal. Throw in - return pass - cross - header - goal. Picking up the taker of a throw in is so basic it's unbelievable. Sunday league stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinR
I do think Harte & Breen are both popular scapegoats though. Harte is worthy of a squad place in my view, but it's not for his ability that he's being left out.
I didn't say Harte was directly at fault for the Romania game. I was asked for a specific example of a goal he was directly responsible for and I gave it. This is a foolish, point-scoring way of making an argument, like I said. If I said I think Duff is an excellent player, would you ask me for examples of this or argue his merits as a player?Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinR
Harte wasn't perfectly positioned for the goal against Spain, that's just not true. He didn't track back in the German game for that goal. Gary Kelly might have lost out too easily but Harte didn't do his defensive duties, which is the point of all this.
Kilbane wasn't made a scapegoat for poor performances. Kilbane played woefully in game after game for Ireland, culiminating in his substitution against Switzerland at home in McCarthy's last game. His turnaround began then.
I'm not part of some anti-Harte bandwagon and I don't think I've given him any unfair abuse. I don't think he's a quality defender; I think his ability at free-kicks is great but that's not good enough for a defender; I've rarely been impressed by him.
Plenty of other players make errors - John O'Shea's howler against the Swiss in Basel, for example - and I don't go leaping for his throat. I think that Harte has had more than enough chances - he's been in the squad since when, 1997? - to prove he can do a decent job at left-back and I don't think he's ever proved himself. This, combined with his mouthing off in the papers, doesn't exactly endear him to me or, I'm sure, Brian Kerr.
Actually just to clarify my last point, I'd select Harte ahead of Maybury but if we were ever to try an alternative to O'Shea at left back I do think it's worth considering Kilbane, so there'd be no need for a third left back in the squad.
sorry, read through above posts a bit too fast and thought it was games his was at fault for - oopsQuote:
Originally Posted by Donal81
still say breen was at fault for spain - harte came out to stop winger taking ball - the thrower should not have been unmarked (kilbane?) and breen should have been ahead of morientes, but as you said all this is irrelevant.
the point of the thread is, should he be in the squad. i cant believe the answer could be anything but yes. we lack so much inventiveness under kerr its unreal - at least hartes passing, crossing and deadballs can create something, if needed.
obviously, there are questions about his defending, but is errors are less than he gets blamed for - see the spain goal for example (two other players more at fault, and yet peopple here blame him ) :rolleyes:
if were picking 20 odd in a squad, surely we can accomadate him
I think he'd be in the squad if it wasn't for his response to being dropped. I also think he must have been dropped for some sort of falling out with Kerr over his management style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donal81
Was Harte consistently in the team / squad under Kerr up to any one point, and then suddenly left out completely? This would back up my suspicion. If he was in and out of the sqaud then I'm probably off the mark.
Gary Kelly was an intense McCarthy loyalist, a factor in his retirement probably, and I wonder if this has anything to do with the Harte situation. Harte owes a huge debt to Mick too.
Sometimes I wonder if players like Steven Reid are seen by Kerr as being too much of Mick's legacy.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw in a conspiracy theory for Friday morning.
Look Bud, the only one keeping score of 'points' is you! If you meant another date then fine, I did look at the years either side and didn't see Romania there -if I did I would have asked you if you meant that particular match. The only match I can see close to the dates you gave is 1997, so with this in mind, it's probably a bit unfair to judge a players worthiness of being in a 2005 squad based on a match he played in 1997!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Donal81
OK, I've no problem accepting that you think he is a poor player and that there have been matches where he has played poorly and/or given goals away, but for me, I counteract that with the goals he's scored and created and the games he did play well ( defensively and offensively ). As a matter of fact I think he is just as error prone as the Honey Monster -and yet he is in the squad. Steve Finnan also had one of the worst games for an Irish Full Back that I've seen when we lost 4-2 away to Russia. Don't get me wrong, I think Dunne and Finnan should be in the squad too.
You're right about Gary Kelly being a McCarthyite. He was the first to speak with Keane walked out of the room.
It amazes me how players don't walk out on their clubs when theres a new manager, obviously the 50k a week is the reason, but do it for their countries. Half of them probably couldnt be arsed anyway, especially if they're on the bench like Kelly.
To think McCarthy played him ahead of the best fullback in the Prem that season (Finnan) and an injured McAteer in front of him against Cameroon. Maybe we'd have won the game and had the easy route to the final that the Germans had. Now theres a 'what if'.
He didn't make the squads for Kerr's first 2 qualifiers. He could have been injured though as Jeff Kenna was on the bench for the 2 games. :eek: He was in all the other squads though. He then got injured and missed the 4 summer friendlies. Kerr didn't call him up to the Bulgaria friendly to give him time to settle in Spain iirc. Maybe there was a rift.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
The way you wrote it, it seemed as if you were making a point out of something. I had gotten the dates wrong, therefore my entire point was meaningless. If that wasn't the case, I apologise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelsman
If it's unfair to judge a player on something that happened in 1997, why didn't you give me a timescale? If Harte scored from that period, I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem including that. I'm talking about Harte's career for Ireland, during which I don't think he's been great. He's been poor for a large part of it.
I have said plenty of times that his passing abilities are excellent. To be honest, I'd prefer to rely on our midfielders for creativity and let our defenders do the defending. If they can attack as well as defend, that's great. If they can only attack, either put them in midfield or upfront or drop them because they shouldn't be in defence. That's my problem with Harte right there - he'll cause us as much trouble as he'll make for our opponents.