Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by mypost

:confused: :rolleyes:

That's the result of a Yes vote.

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But you're telling us we have to do as France and Holland say, even if the rest of the EU demands differently. You've repeated this ad nauseum.

The Treaty writes 'in stone' that any 3 countries, even if they are France, Germany and the UK (who constitute 2/5ths of the Union's population, as much as all the other countries except Italy put together), cannot push through a motion on their own.

Between politicians gaining by losing power, and having to do as big countries say so that we don't have to do what big countries say about a referendum that stops us from having to do what big countries say... the 'Níl' motion seems a bit confused. Perhaps they're a bit in a tizzy after that whole business with the gun running.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

But you're telling us we have to do as France and Holland say, even if the rest of the EU demands differently. You've repeated this ad nauseum.

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The people in Europe in general don't want this, that's why it was rejected in two referendums, and would have been rejected in several more if there was the opportunity. But there wasn't. All 26 countries who have "ratified" this joke have done it through parliament, where the outcome was rigged according to party allegiance. Politicians, not people want this, and it's people not politicians who will have to deal with the inevitable uproar and animosity down the line, when the full effects of it are felt.

The people voted in the politicians, they should have questioned where their chosen politician stood on this question before giving them their preference, hence the people are either for this, or incapable of making an informed decision. So if the politicians ratify it then it is the will of the people, if it isn't they will be shown the door at the next local/national elections in said country. There isn't a politician on this planet that would commit career suicide by going completely against the electorate on an issue as important as this one, so I don't see how you can say the majority are against this

Remember what happened when the electorate voted no in the Nice referendum ? "Um, sorry folks, wrong answer, try again."

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Originally Posted by TonyD

Remember what happened when the electorate voted no in the Nice referendum ? "Um, sorry folks, wrong answer, try again."

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That's democracy though, here's a thinly veiled smokescreen that masks what we the fat cats want to happen, just deal with it! :)

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Originally Posted by jebus

The people voted in the politicians, they should have questioned where their chosen politician stood on this question before giving them their preference. So if the politicians ratify it then it is the will of the people, if it isn't they will be shown the door at the next local/national elections in said country.

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In most countries, there haven't been elections since the thing was signed in Lisbon. Politicians don't listen to their electorate, they make decisions that best serve the people in their eyes, whether that is the case or not.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

Remember what happened when the electorate voted no in the Nice referendum ? "Um, sorry folks, wrong answer, try again."

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This age-old argument keeps been brought up. :rolleyes: We have done well out of Nice, whereas this offers us no benefit at all.

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Originally Posted by mypost

In most countries, there haven't been elections since the thing was signed in Lisbon. Politicians don't listen to their electorate, they make decisions that best serve the people in their eyes, whether that is the case or not.

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I wouldn't advise you ever to enter politics; sounds like it'd be a shortlived career.

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Originally Posted by mypost

In most countries, there haven't been elections since the thing was signed in Lisbon. Politicians don't listen to their electorate, they make decisions that best serve the people in their eyes, whether that is the case or not.

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Politicians will have sent feelers out to test the mood of the people towards this, if people are as against it as you seem to believe then they will realise that they will not be re-elected in the next elections.

People should still have asked their politician what their policy towards Europe was in their last elections, it's not like this has been sprung out of nowhere

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Originally Posted by TonyD

Remember what happened when the electorate voted no in the Nice referendum ? "Um, sorry folks, wrong answer, try again."

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And what did people do?Voted it through. If people were that bothered they'd just have voted No again.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

Remember what happened when the electorate voted no in the Nice referendum ? "Um, sorry folks, wrong answer, try again."

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"Er, sorry for the confusion folks, we'll write an extra little bit that addresses your concerns about neutrality, and then if that wording suits, we can have another bash off it?"

Even though the EU has constantly bent over to let us assert our neutrality whilst benefiting from security, it is again being raised as an issue in this referendum, despite explicit confirmation of our neutrality. In America they call that "Fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) "

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Originally Posted by jebus

Politicians will have sent feelers out to test the mood of the people towards this, if people are as against it as you seem to believe then they will realise that they will not be re-elected in the next elections.

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There is opposition to this treaty from the 5 main parties. They're all in favour of it, so there's no alternative to vote for.

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People should still have asked their politician what their policy towards Europe was in their last elections, it's not like this has been sprung out of nowhere

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The public in Ballyremote are more interested in whether their local TD turns up at the GAA club's dinner dance than what his stance on Lisbon is. Some of them probably don't know where Lisbon is. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

There is opposition to this treaty from the 5 main parties. They're all in favour of it, so there's no alternative to vote for.

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You could vote for the shinners. I'd imagine that's where your vote will go next time, I'd be disgusted if the party i supported was so blatantly in favour of something i was against.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The public in Ballyremote are more interested in whether their local TD turns up at the GAA club's dinner dance than what his stance on Lisbon is. Some of them probably don't know where Lisbon is. :rolleyes:

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Then tough cookies to them when the EuroPolice come calling for their first born (isn't that what Sinn Fein and Libertas maintain will happen if the Yes vote win?)

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

You could vote for the shinners. I'd imagine that's where your vote will go next time.

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Wrong again :rolleyes:

I don't have allegiance to any party, and will vote according to my views on the issues concerned.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Then tough cookies to them when the EuroPolice come calling for their first born (isn't that what Sinn Fein and Libertas maintain will happen if the Yes vote win?)

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Don't be silly..there'l be no first born-they're all gonna be aborted.

No seriously though, I think the people in the 'No' camp who are going around sticking 'A white Ireland for Irish people' posters over the Yes posters are doing the Yes camp more good than any of the political parties. As silly as it seems at least 2 people have said to me that if nothing else they're voting yes simply to distance themselves from people like that.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Wrong again :rolleyes:

I don't have allegiance to any party, and will vote according to my views on the issues concerned.

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All the other parties are, from your point of view, capable of throwing away our national sovereignty. You might be voting for them?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

All the other parties are, from your point of view, capable of throwing away our national sovereignty.

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There is of course, more to this referendum than that.:rolleyes:

As already stated, the fact that SF are against it, won't make any difference to my vote.

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Originally Posted by mypost

There is of course, more to this referendum than that.:rolleyes:

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... go on?

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As already stated, the fact that SF are against it, won't make any difference to my vote.

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I'm referring, of course, to the next round of elections. Do party policies on issues as important as the future of the EU not come into play?

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Originally Posted by micls

No seriously though, I think the people in the 'No' camp who are going around sticking 'A white Ireland for Irish people' posters over the Yes posters are doing the Yes camp more good than any of the political parties. As silly as it seems at least 2 people have said to me that if nothing else they're voting yes simply to distance themselves from people like that.

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Honestly, before I had read a thing about the Lisbon Treaty I asked who was for and against it. When I found out that the 'No Camp' consisted of a shady group called Libertas, the Church, Sinn Fein and the Anti-War Movement (?) I immediatly said 'sold! one vote for the yes camp', I should really stop talking to myself as a game show host though

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

I'm referring, of course, to the next round of elections. Do party policies on issues as important as the future of the EU not come into play?

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No.

There is one issue in referendums. There are 50 in elections. The difference between the two is black and white.

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Originally Posted by jebus

When I found out that the 'No Camp' consisted of a shady group called Libertas, the Church, Sinn Fein and the Anti-War Movement (?) I immediatly said 'sold! one vote for the yes camp',

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:o

Every bit as shady, as one coalition partner in favour of it, in order to stay in government.