Northern players declaring for the Republic

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28/10/2006, 9:16 PM
Not Brazil

Lopez,

"Nice spin"

Not spin at all.

I would respectfully refer you to Article 3 of The Constitution Of Ireland.:eek:

Notice how you avoided the fact that you pull out the old 'IFA have more right to be Irish than the FAI' in earlier threads (and looking at it now later threads) while denying that any legitimacy to the area they once governed.

I do not intend to "avoid" anything you wish to discuss with me.

Could you please expand on what you mean by the above, and I will gladly respond.

"That is the thing with your identity. There is little consistency"

On the contrary, I think others have already commented that I have been entirely consistent about my identity. That's because I am certain of it.

"And for a minute I thought it had something to do with this 'I'm Irish' statement you've been stringing"

Yes, I am Irish - hence my entitlement to obtain one. At the time, I was very glad of it too.

I would respectfully refer you to Article 2 of The Constitution Of Ireland.:eek:

"I also like the Sash which is why I'd like that also included"

But it's not really about tunes you like, is it?

I don't see much prospect of "The Sash" being played at Lansdowne Road (or Croke Park) for an Ireland international - personally, I don't feel particularly attached to the song either. I do recognise that those who do wear the Sash form an important part of Irish history and culture.
29/10/2006, 10:49 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

i can tell you as an Irishman that no Irishman can also be British. that, my friend is a fact. they can try, claim and spout all they want, but it is a misguided claim and a false identity. they can be britons living in ireland. northern irish and british. but not irish and british. it doesnt work.

its all well and good being open minded, fair, yadda yadda, which i mostly am, but this is ********.
i am insulted that someone who is british can also claim to be the smae as i am.

I would respectfully refer you to the Belfast Agreement.

Constitutional Issues 1 (vi) states:

"recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves as, and be accepted as, Irish or British or both as they may so choose, and accorgingly confirm that their right to hold both Irish and British Citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future changes in the status of Northern Ireland"

This Agreement was endorsed by the overwhelming majority of people on the island - including 94% of those who voted in the Republic Of Ireland.

Should you wish to challenge my right to identify as Irish and British in any court of law, I think you'd find you'll have spent a lot of money needlesly.

You are very mistaken.

Deal with reality.
29/10/2006, 11:15 AM
bennocelt

Quote:

Originally Posted by gspain

Alan Kernghan was no joke. He had a terrible game v Spain in October 1993 when too many players and fans expected an easy ride to the world Cup. He wasn't the only one to have astinker that day.

He also had some great games for us such as Denamrk away 92 and played very well in Windsor Park in Nov 93 when we qualified for the World Cup. He lost out to a classy looking Phil Babb after that. Babb was a decent defender with loads of talent before he went off the rails.

Alan Kernaghan was a tough no nonsense defender who always gave 100% in a green shirt. We can ask no more than that.

ah come on,
yeah he had a few good games, but he didnt exactly set the world alight, did he even get a game at the world cup
journey man player, good for the scottish league,
watched that free dvd last night.christ eddie mcoldrick used to get games for ireland! thats the team we had back then! still they (or paul mcgrath) did the business
29/10/2006, 11:25 AM
bennocelt

[QUOTE=Merc67;563684][QUOTE=Not Brazil;563673]
I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.

Quote:

how is that?
you just woke up and decided to be British or are you of occupier blood?

i thought they went with the Ulster Scots identity thing these days:p
29/10/2006, 11:38 AM
Merc67

[QUOTE=bennocelt;564444][QUOTE=Merc67;563684]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.

i thought they went with the Ulster Scots identity thing these days:p

they;ll create another one any minute now:D :rolleyes: fruitcakes..

re: No Brazil, do you think i'd allow some english beureaucrat to tell me what being Irish is?

because it's written on a piece of paper that people were 'sold' as being a step on the road to peace doesn't make it so.

you can live in cloud ****ing cuckoo land all you want and call it your reality but if you really think anyone 'irish' - not northern Irish - would 'want' to tbe British you're out there son.

you can be northern irish and british if you want. but youre not Irish. reality.

just because you;re here for a while doesnt make you Irish. you have never contributed to Ireland, to Irish culture, to Irishness as an identity. your people have taken away and tried to destroy it, how dare you try and claim it now AND Britishness... shame on you/

an insult to any irishman is to be called British. im sure you understand the reasons behind that.

again, hide behind a legislation that will be changed within a generation if you will. your the myopic one here and calling yourself Irish AND British is pure mischief intent to strengthn the unfortunate influence of britain on this island.
29/10/2006, 11:54 AM
Not Brazil

Merc67,

"re: No Brazil, do you think i'd allow some english beureaucrat to tell me what being Irish is?"

I think you'll find that the SDLP, Sinn Fein and the Republic Of Ireland Government are signatories to the Belfast Agreement.;)

"because it's written on a piece of paper that people were 'sold' as being a step on the road to peace doesn't make it so."

The people of this island endorsed it by democratically, and freely, expressing their will at the ballot box.

"you can live in cloud ****ing cuckoo land all you want and call it your reality but if you really think anyone 'irish' - not northern Irish - would 'want' to tbe British you're out there son."

The Agreement actually confirms that you are "out there" - son.

"you can be northern irish and british if you want. but youre not Irish. reality."

Read the Agreement. It's reality - it's Law.:eek:

"just because you;re here for a while doesnt make you Irish"

I have been here all my life. I suspect longer than you.

"you have never contributed to Ireland, to Irish culture, to Irishness as an identity. your people have taken away and tried to destroy it, how dare you try and claim it now AND Britishness... shame on you"

I have tried to destroy nothing, and express my Irishness on a daily basis.

"an insult to any irishman is to be called British."

On the contrary, this Irishman is quite happy to be called British.

"hide behind a legislation"

:eek:

"your the myopic one here"

I don't think so. I'm not the one telling other people what they are and what they're not.

"and calling yourself Irish AND British is pure mischief intent to strengthn the unfortunate influence of britain on this island"

It's a fact. A reality. You cannot deal with it. I am Irish and British - proudly both.

What are you going to do about this " unfortunate influence of Britain on this island"?

It isn't going away.

Nearly one million people on the island identify in some way as British - they are the people you claim you wish to be "united" with. How are you going to be reconciled with them?

I noticed you swerved the questions I put to you yesterday evening.
29/10/2006, 3:53 PM
Merc67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Merc67,

Read the Agreement. It's reality - it's Law.:eek:

do you agree with every piece of legislation? lol, I doubt it...

legislation changes, don't worry, it was a means to an end, just out of interest are you and the unionists 'more' Irish now? lol its bull. how many others claim Irishness? and if and when the very few do isnt it as a secondary lower tag to their britishness. this is why its a ****ing insult you idiot.

'Irishness' is not someone that wants to be British. that's being a unionist; someone who was never from ireland and doesn't want to be. its an insult. you still cannot tell me how you are Irish apart from being born on the island of ireland. you are a planter, there's nothing irish about someone wanting to be british!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"you have never contributed to Ireland, to Irish culture, to Irishness as an identity. your people have taken away and tried to destroy it, how dare you try and claim it now AND Britishness... shame on you"

read this again....and tell me how you express your 'Irishness' :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"an insult to any irishman is to be called British."

On the contrary, this Irishman is quite happy to be called British.

Another reason you are not a real Irishman. but someone claiming it with an ulterior motive...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Nearly one million people on the island identify in some way as British - they are the people you claim you wish to be "united" with. I noticed you swerved the questions I put to you yesterday evening.

theyre irrelevant questions, that i may, if i have time, answer for your pleasure. but there really is little comparison. france has no claim or occupation of Canda:rolleyes:
``
29/10/2006, 5:17 PM
Not Brazil

"do you agree with every piece of legislation? lol, I doubt it..."

I may not "agree" with every piece of legislation, but I respect the legislastion of the land.

This particular piece of legislation was endorsed by the overwhelming majority of people on the island who voted for the Agreement.

"legislation changes, don't worry, it was a means to an end"

I would confidently that the principle I quoted to you from the Agreement will not change. You had better start dealing with it.

"just out of interest are you and the unionists 'more' Irish now? lol its bull. how many others claim Irishness? and if and when the very few do isnt it as a secondary lower tag to their britishness. this is why its a ****ing insult you idiot"

Unionism is a political idealology.

I am "unionist" basically because I believe that me and my families interests are currently better served by Northern Ireland remaining within the United Kingdom.

I can be persuaded otherwise, but, I have to say, if attitudes like yours prevail on identity, I will be difficult to persuade.

Many "unionists" identify as solely British - as is their right - any many I know identify as British and Irish - as is their right also.

At the football yesterday, I suggested to a "unionist" friend, born like me in Belfast, that he was not Irish - he laughed loudly in my face.

"'Irishness' is not someone that wants to be British. that's being a unionist"

I am a "unionist" who is British and Irish.

"someone who was never from ireland and doesn't want to be"

I am from Ireland - born and bred in Belfast- and am very happy to be Irish (and British)

"its an insult. you still cannot tell me how you are Irish apart from being born on the island of ireland"

My birthright is all I need to be Irish.

"you are a planter"

:D

No, I'm not.

I was born here and I am staying here. This is my home.

Do you think that I don't belong here - that there is somewhere I should go?

"there's nothing irish about someone wanting to be british!"

I am British and Irish, so there's plenty Irish about it.

"read this again....and tell me how you express your 'Irishness'

Basically by existing, and not denouncing the fact that I am Irish.

"Another reason you are not a real Irishman. but someone claiming it with an ulterior motive..."

Just as "real" an Irishman as you. I have no "ulterior motive". I am proud of the Irish part of my identity.

"theyre irrelevant questions"

They're not. They're at the core of this very discussion.

Nearly one million people on the island identify in some way as British - they are the people you claim you wish to be "united" with. How are you going to be reconciled with them?
30/10/2006, 8:22 AM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

this is why its a ****ing insult you idiot.

theyre irrelevant questions, that i may, if i have time, answer for your pleasure.

How you will feel to be "united" with a huge of number of people who have very different views from you (views which you clearly cannot tolerate), yet people with whom you yearn to be united...............this is a very relevant question.

I am no more upset when people mistake me as British than I am when mistaken for any other nationality.
30/10/2006, 11:03 AM
Mr_Parker

Only catching the tail end of this but Not Brazil is certainly 'on the money' in this debate from what I have read.
30/10/2006, 11:05 AM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Lopez,"Nice spin"
Not spin at all.I would respectfully refer you to Article 3 of The Constitution Of Ireland.

Eight years ago you would be spitting fire over articles 2 & 3. Now you seem to quote them ad nauseum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Notice how you avoided the fact that you pull out the old 'IFA have more right to be Irish than the FAI' in earlier threads (and looking at it now later threads) while denying that any legitimacy to the area they once governed.
I do not intend to "avoid" anything you wish to discuss with me. Could you please expand on what you mean by the above, and I will gladly respond.

The point that you state that the Irish Football Association is somehow the legitimate footballing authority in the country (which would be true if it didn't bring sectarianism in e.g. the playing of football on sunday) while not acknowledging the people of the country the democratic wish to become independent and united. Two plebicites in Ireland were performed under the threat of either war or more war (the 1921 referendum on accepting the treaty and the 1998 GFA). The decision to scrap the Irish Free State and leave the commonwealth (by the blueshirts no less :eek:) were done with out the threat of violence.

As an side, re the GFA, no such agreement would have been done without 25 years of violence. Even 5 years wasn't enough, hence the failure of the Sunningdale Agreement. You seem to love the GFA so much, you can thank the Provos for that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"I also like the Sash which is why I'd like that also included"
But it's not really about tunes you like, is it?

So why bring up rugby if you don't think my opinion is worth a sh*t? You want the expensive option of a new song that large numbers of people on BOTH communities will resent. I propose two songs that both sides will have to live with because that's what is represented by their team, be it the NI side, the Irish rugby side or 'if it was up to me', a public announcement that any player born in NI will be welcomed by the FAI, the 26C side aswell.

And if we're bringing in 'it's not up to you' then wise up and recognise the fact that players born in NI are the ones that decide who they play for, not you, the IFA or the FAI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I do recognise that those who do wear the Sash form an important part of Irish history and culture.

There's no doubting that. If you forgive me for mentioning your bogeymen, it's like talking about German 20C culture and history and ignoring the Nazis.
30/10/2006, 11:47 AM
Not Brazil

lopez,

"Eight years ago you would be spitting fire over articles 2 & 3. Now you seem to quote them ad nauseum"

Well, I have quoted them once - to negate your arguement.:) You do uphold the Constitution Of Ireland, don't you?

"The point that you state that the Irish Football Association is somehow the legitimate footballing authority in the country"

It is one of two "legitimate" football Associations on the island.

It is the oldest/original football Association on the island.

"(which would be true if it didn't bring sectarianism in e.g. the playing of football on sunday)"

A rule which I wish to see removed asap as it discriminates against me and about 95% of the rest of people in Northern Ireland who follow football.

Clubs should be free to choose when they play their matches, and those who choose not to attend on a Sunday should not be forced to attend.:)

A rule which is ignored by the IFA - when it suits.

"while not acknowledging the people of the country the democratic wish to become independent and united. Two plebicites in Ireland were performed under the threat of either war or more war (the 1921 referendum on accepting the treaty and the 1998 GFA). The decision to scrap the Irish Free State and leave the commonwealth (by the blueshirts no less :eek:) were done with out the threat of violence"

I wouldn't dispute any of that. I have no intention of getting into the rights and wrongs of it.

"As an side, re the GFA, no such agreement would have been done without 25 years of violence. Even 5 years wasn't enough, hence the failure of the Sunningdale Agreement. You seem to love the GFA so much, you can thank the Provos for that one."

However it came about - and we could probably discuss that for a very long time - it is reality. It is the will of the people of this island, democratically expressed at the ballot box.

"So why bring up rugby if you don't think my opinion is worth a sh*t?"

I respect your opinion, but think that it is wholly improbable on this issue. How do you think "The Sash" would be greeted at Lansdowne Road or Croke Park? We need to be realistic.

"You want the expensive option of a new song that large numbers of people on BOTH communities will resent."

Ireland's Call seems to command the respect of those in attendance - whether or not people like the tune.

"I propose two songs that both sides will have to live with because that's what is represented by their team, be it the NI side, the Irish rugby side or 'if it was up to me', a public announcement that any player born in NI will be welcomed by the FAI, the 26C side aswell."

I believe your proposal is highly unlikely to be implemented.

"And if we're bringing in 'it's not up to you' then wise up and recognise the fact that players born in NI are the ones that decide who they play for, not you, the IFA or the FAI."

I think if you peruse the thread, you will find that I have repeatedly stated that I broadly support the right of Northern Irish born players to elect to play for the Republic - if they so wish. It is the timing of such decisions that is my gripe. I would prefer if they did it sooner in their international careers, preferrably before they have represented Northern Ireland.

I agree also that the decision should be made without pressure being put on them by either Association, and would be rather irked if the FAI were found to be "tapping up" players in Northern Ireland - of course, there is no evidence of that being the case as yet.

Ultimately, it is FIFA rules which will dictate who can play for who.

I understand the complexities of identity in Northern Ireland.

"There's no doubting that. If you forgive me for mentioning your bogeymen, it's like talking about German 20C culture and history and ignoring the Nazis."

I am not a member of any of the Loyal Orders, so I would not consider them to be my "bogeymen".

The Republic Of Ireland has it's "bogeymen" too.

I would hold an opinion about the positive and negative aspects of the Loyal Orders - but that is irrelevant to this discussion.
30/10/2006, 1:47 PM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"Eight years ago you would be spitting fire over articles 2 & 3. Now you seem to quote them ad nauseum"
Well, I have quoted them once - to negate your arguement. You do uphold the Constitution Of Ireland, don't you?

Yes I do. And I have no problem with dual nationality. I think that dual nationality is dual citizenshipthat. I have no right to dispute anyone's view of their own identity, but if someone has just British citizenship born in Ireland I think that it is nationality - British, regionality - Irish. Any British I have is down to pure place of birth and where I grew up. Nationality and ethnicity are different, and this is relevant to this thread regarding these players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"The point that you state that the Irish Football Association is somehow the legitimate footballing authority in the country"
It is one of two "legitimate" football Associations on the island. It is the oldest/original football Association on the island.

The FAI seperated from the IFA (for sectarian reasons not through partition). It is the only sporting body that has. Only athletics (which I may be wrong was made up of three competing associations) split through partition - primarily as there is a UK team - and yet has less problem with athletes competing for the two countries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"(which would be true if it didn't bring sectarianism in e.g. the playing of football on sunday)"
A rule which I wish to see removed asap as it discriminates against me and about 95% of the rest of people in Northern Ireland who follow football. Clubs should be free to choose when they play their matches, and those who choose not to attend on a Sunday should not be forced to attend. A rule which is ignored by the IFA - when it suits.

It's a strange stance I can't understand myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"while not acknowledging the people of the country the democratic wish to become independent and united. Two plebicites in Ireland were performed under the threat of either war or more war (the 1921 referendum on accepting the treaty and the 1998 GFA). The decision to scrap the Irish Free State and leave the commonwealth (by the blueshirts no less :eek:) were done with out the threat of violence"
I wouldn't dispute any of that. I have no intention of getting into the rights and wrongs of it.

As you can argue very eloquently on other matters, that's surprising.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"As an side, re the GFA, no such agreement would have been done without 25 years of violence. Even 5 years wasn't enough, hence the failure of the Sunningdale Agreement. You seem to love the GFA so much, you can thank the Provos for that one."
However it came about - and we could probably discuss that for a very long time - it is reality. It is the will of the people of this island, democratically expressed at the ballot box.

The issue of independence has not been addressed at the ballot box by the whole island.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"So why bring up rugby if you don't think my opinion is worth a sh*t?"
I respect your opinion, but think that it is wholly improbable on this issue. How do you think "The Sash" would be greeted at Lansdowne Road or Croke Park? We need to be realistic.

At rugby I think it would be respected. Was it EG that had a problem with the flags of some rugby fans? I've seen NI flags at Ireland rugby games. I've no problem with that. I'd like to hear if anyone else has.

I've read a testiment on a previous thread of some golfing get together ending with songs from both 'traditions' including the sash. I also remember a report from a 1985 tour to Japan where Irish fans sang both such songs - including the sash - and it didn't end up with doors removed from hinges in hotels, and men smoking menacingly on pipes asking how many police are coming. Football? To be totally, totally, honest? I'm having a Martin Luther King moment here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"You want the expensive option of a new song that large numbers of people on BOTH communities will resent."
Ireland's Call seems to command the respect of those in attendance - whether or not people like the tune.

I think you're right there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"I propose two songs that both sides will have to live with because that's what is represented by their team, be it the NI side, the Irish rugby side or 'if it was up to me', a public announcement that any player born in NI will be welcomed by the FAI, the 26C side aswell."
I believe your proposal is highly unlikely to be implemented.

I concur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"And if we're bringing in 'it's not up to you' then wise up and recognise the fact that players born in NI are the ones that decide who they play for, not you, the IFA or the FAI."
I think if you peruse the thread, you will find that I have repeatedly stated that I broadly support the right of Northern Irish born players to elect to play for the Republic - if they so wish. It is the timing of such decisions that is my gripe. I would prefer if they did it sooner in their international careers, preferrably before they have represented Northern Ireland.

As stated earlier, FIFA have recently allowed this situation. Previously, you could only play for a schools representative side of another country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I agree also that the decision should be made without pressure being put on them by either Association, and would be rather irked if the FAI were found to be "tapping up" players in Northern Ireland - of course, there is no evidence of that being the case as yet.

It's hard for the FAI not to 'tap up'. They see a player that's eligible, their coach calls him up. He either says yes please or no thanks. If there's a financial inducement, that's another thing. But I've never heard of David Beckham writing to the FA saying 'Please sir. Can I play for England?' The players are eligible, that's fine by me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Ultimately, it is FIFA rules which will dictate who can play for who. I understand the complexities of identity in Northern Ireland.

I know you do. Unfortunately, there are many of your fellow supporters that don't. To this particular category there's a black and white approach. They are born in NI, that is the only country they play for (f*ck the political-minded glory hunters if they object to the GSTQ, No surrender, and my King Billy Scarve), the Republic of whatever is a foreign country, how dare the treacherous glory-hunters support/want to play for them (oh and why don't they want to play someone with my politics the bigoted f*ckers).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"There's no doubting that. If you forgive me for mentioning your bogeymen, it's like talking about German 20C culture and history and ignoring the Nazis."
I am not a member of any of the Loyal Orders, so I would not consider them to be my "bogeymen". The Republic Of Ireland has it's "bogeymen" too.

Bogeyman as in Nazis? Yes the RoI has its bogeymen but they were proscribed, and their politcal leaders were banned from television and radio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I would hold an opinion about the positive and negative aspects of the Loyal Orders - but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Yes: Please don't start on them.;)
30/10/2006, 1:59 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

EG,

Did you hear the joke about the guy born in England, says he's Irish, and tells a boy born in Belfast that he's not Irish?

I know

Maybe Lopez is only "on holiday" in London...;)

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/52095/...nd_ali_g_show/

Btw, NB, does your mother come from Ireland?

http://www.newstatesman.com/200407190023

Bill Clinton "More Irish by the day".

Priceless!:D
30/10/2006, 2:53 PM
Not Brazil

[QUOTE=lopez;564900]

"I have no right to dispute anyone's view of their own identity"

I think that's enough said on that particular subject.

I concur 100% with that.

"The FAI seperated from the IFA (for sectarian reasons not through partition). It is the only sporting body that has."

We can engage in a long discussion about that if you like, but I think we will differ on why the split took place. I had occassion to research the subject recently, and I allow my guiding light on the subject to be "The Official History Of The FAI", written by Peter Byrne in 1996.

Of more relevance to this discussion is perhaps the future relationship between the FAI and IFA. One which I hope can continue be cordial, and one whereby the eligibility issues are finalised.

"As you can argue very eloquently on other matters, that's surprising."

The primary reason why I am loathe to nit pick over the past is that our shared past has brought nothing but conflict, disagreement and bitterness.

I have two children, born 1994 and 1999. Thankfully, they have been brought up in relatively peaceful times.

Rather than continue to let the past rob our children of a future, I would prefer to concentrate on a future whereby we can agree to live on this island together, in peace, based on mutual respect. None of us living today can change the past - we can shape a better future.

"The issue of independence has not been addressed at the ballot box by the whole island"

And, rightly or wrongly, nor will it be.

The constitutional question of Northern Ireland has been, de facto, settled in terms of how change can come about. This is fully recognised in the Constitution Of Ireland.

"At rugby I think it would be respected"

Maybe so - I'm happy enough with just "Ireland's Call" being played at ALL Ireland rugby internationals. It causes nobody any offence, unites and bonds players and supporters alike.

"It's hard for the FAI not to 'tap up'. They see a player that's eligible, their coach calls him up. He either says yes please or no thanks. If there's a financial inducement, that's another thing. But I've never heard of David Beckham writing to the FA saying 'Please sir. Can I play for England?' The players are eligible, that's fine by me."

It's a problematic area. I believe that the IFA and FAI, with guidance from FIFA, will resolve the situation to their mutual satisfaction.

Unfortunately, there are many of your fellow supporters that don't. To this particular category there's a black and white approach. They are born in NI, that is the only country they play for (f*ck the political-minded glory hunters if they object to the GSTQ, No surrender, and my King Billy Scarve), the Republic of whatever is a foreign country, how dare the treacherous glory-hunters support/want to play for them (oh and why don't they want to play someone with my politics the bigoted f*ckers)"

I know.

Indicative of living through conflict - "them and us". The sad legacy of history on this island.

We have also seen on this thread that such high emotions are not just the sole domain of some Northern Ireland fans.

We will never agree our past. Perhaps we can agree a future?
30/10/2006, 4:14 PM
Merc67

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

How you will feel to be "united" with a huge of number of people who have very different views from you (views which you clearly cannot tolerate), yet people with whom you yearn to be united...............this is a very relevant question.

I am no more upset when people mistake me as British than I am when mistaken for any other nationality.

where have I ever said i wanted to be 'united' with Britons?
i want Ireland, the island to be reunited, free from British influence; politically and militarily and symbolically.

of course there will be a new country, and discussions will follow, but the 'brits' are a minority on this island and should be reflected as such.

i want unity for the people in the north who are Irish, proud and do not try to cringingly tie themselves to another state, and cling to a union that most of the rest of the other nations have no love for anymore. its outdated and undemocratic.

I want the wrongs undone on this island and that means an end to british influence, full stop. people can leave if they dont like it - just as many in hong Kong did, im sure.

i wouldnt of course feed people's armoury by saying im intolerant and would have no respect for certain identities in the north, but they should be respected as minorities and nothing more.

it would, ironically, be a respect they never had for any citizen on this island...
30/10/2006, 4:51 PM
Not Brazil

"where have I ever said i wanted to be 'united' with Britons?"

"the 'brits' are a minority on this island and should be reflected as such"

"that means an end to british influence, full stop. people can leave if they dont like it"

"they should be respected as minorities and nothing more"

Akin to the worst excesses of the BNP and National Front.:eek:

So much for an "Ireland Of Equals".:eek:
30/10/2006, 5:44 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

where have I ever said i wanted to be 'united' with Britons?
i want Ireland, the island to be reunited, free from British influence; politically and militarily and symbolically.

So under a United ireland, what would you suggest doing with the majority of the c. 1 million people who have consciously taken British identity ?

If you don't want to be united with them - are you suggesting that the north should be ethnically cleansed ? :confused:
30/10/2006, 10:33 PM
lopez

[QUOTE=Not Brazil;564939]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

"The FAI seperated from the IFA (for sectarian reasons not through partition). It is the only sporting body that has."
We can engage in a long discussion about that if you like, but I think we will differ on why the split took place. I had occassion to research the subject recently, and I allow my guiding light on the subject to be "The Official History Of The FAI", written by Peter Byrne in 1996.

I think we can look at the dates between the formation of the IFS and the formation of the FAI as a clue. Also the invitation to - or the 'tapping of' - the Falls & District League (was that the name?). And also the Liverpool conference of 1923 that forced the FAI to change its name to the FAIFS. Did like Peter Byrne's book particularly the story of the African fans of the Royal College of Surgeons being part responsible for 'the split.' I've also got Malcolm Brodie's two excellent, if slightly misnamed, histories of Irish football (very little outside of County Down and Antrim), although (if I remember correctly) Brodie's thesis is also that partition forced the split.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"It's hard for the FAI not to 'tap up'. They see a player that's eligible, their coach calls him up. He either says yes please or no thanks. If there's a financial inducement, that's another thing. But I've never heard of David Beckham writing to the FA saying 'Please sir. Can I play for England?' The players are eligible, that's fine by me."
It's a problematic area. I believe that the IFA and FAI, with guidance from FIFA, will resolve the situation to their mutual satisfaction.

I think that the area will be only settled in the FAI's favour. Very few southern players want to play for the North. I'd put more money on Poland or England TBH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Unfortunately, there are many of your fellow supporters that don't. To this particular category there's a black and white approach. They are born in NI, that is the only country they play for (f*ck the political-minded glory hunters if they object to the GSTQ, No surrender, and my King Billy Scarve), the Republic of whatever is a foreign country, how dare the treacherous glory-hunters support/want to play for them (oh and why don't they want to play someone with my politics the bigoted f*ckers)"
I know. Indicative of living through conflict - "them and us". The sad legacy of history on this island. We have also seen on this thread that such high emotions are not just the sole domain of some Northern Ireland fans. We will never agree our past. Perhaps we can agree a future?

One big difference with this site is that people are more inclined to stand up and disagree with others, and you can see this on this thread. Within the 40 odd pages on this theme on OWC there is little dissent - naitonalists excepted - from the above line. And before you and the monkey who has come over with you start suggesting I have some form of unhealthy fixation with this site, where else are we to guage unionist NI fans opinions? The IFA? The official NI programme? Marie Jones? This site isn't followfollow.com. It claims to be the moderate face of NI football - no 'superprods' etc. - but more than a small minority have replaced the Republic as their hate figure where a decade ago, taigbashing would be considered harmless fun.

It is not just the IFA that risk losing players. All small FAs do. One can appreciate your dissapointment, but at least these players have a history of supporting the team. Do you really want consistency and the FAI to go after 'British' players, to prove they're not sectarian.Twelve years ago clubs were forcing young players to make decisions and opt for England at youth level, because of the UEFA 4 foreigners per team rule.

While the residents of OWC think of English born ROI players they cite Cascarino and Townsend, other players of two Irish parents and a strong Irish identity were pressurised into opting for England (this was before the present situation re changing national sides) and then discarded afterwards. I know this is true and a club that kept cropping up was QPR (Kevin Gallan one, but at least one other as well). Is that the sort of road you want the IFA to go down? Would you like the FAI to do likewise? Would you like a club like QPR to start hassling English born players qualified to play for NI to play for England in the knowledge that they will be forever 'cup-tied'?
31/10/2006, 9:51 AM
Not Brazil

lopez,

" I've also got Malcolm Brodie's two excellent, if slightly misnamed, histories of Irish football (very little outside of County Down and Antrim), although (if I remember correctly) Brodie's thesis is also that partition forced the split."

A great journalist is our Malcolm. Of particular interest to me concerning the history of the two Associations was the selection by the IFA of players from both jurisdictions post partition, and the period when that ceased.

"I think that the area will be only settled in the FAI's favour."

I'm prepared to "wait and see".

"One big difference with this site is that people are more inclined to stand up and disagree with others, and you can see this on this thread. Within the 40 odd pages on this theme on OWC there is little dissent - naitonalists excepted - from the above line"

We have our differences of opinion on OWC on a wide range of issues - anthem, flag etc.

"And before you and the monkey who has come over with you start suggesting I have some form of unhealthy fixation with this site, where else are we to guage unionist NI fans opinions?"

It's interesting that many of the "harder line" Northern Ireland fans detest OWC - would view it as a site moderated by "liberal, handringers".

The Northern Ireland section on the Irish League Forums would give you an alternative view of the opinions of Northern Ireland fans on a wide range of issues.

"It claims to be the moderate face of NI football - no 'superprods' etc. - but more than a small minority have replaced the Republic as their hate figure where a decade ago, taigbashing would be considered harmless fun."

I don't believe it has made any such claim to be "the moderate face of Northern Ireland fotball" - there is a wide range of opinions expressed.

I think many Northern Ireland fans would consider the ROI to be their main rivals - proximity etc. I appreciate that most ROI fans do not feel the same way.

Bit like Fulham considering Chelsea to be their rivals, but Chelsea wouldn't really have Fulham on the radar as rivals.

I have never engaged in "taigbashing". I have opinions, and I express them on discussion Boards. I view attacks, verbal or otherwise, on people solely on account of their religious beliefs to be abhorent. I am absolutely consistent on that.

It is not just the IFA that risk losing players. All small FAs do. One can appreciate your dissapointment, but at least these players have a history of supporting the team. Do you really want consistency and the FAI to go after 'British' players, to prove they're not sectarian.Twelve years ago clubs were forcing young players to make decisions and opt for England at youth level, because of the UEFA 4 foreigners per team rule.

"Is that the sort of road you want the IFA to go down? Would you like the FAI to do likewise? Would you like a club like QPR to start hassling English born players qualified to play for NI to play for England in the knowledge that they will be forever 'cup-tied'?"

I want the situation to be, as far as possible, that young players who have represented Northern Ireland at various levels, are not lost to us.

I am convinced that the FAI and IFA will iron this out, given our "special circumstances".

How it will iron out, I'm not sure - but my gut feeling is that something can be worked out that is mutually satisfactory to both Associations.

I am certainly not for "standing in the way" of any kid from Northern Ireland who wants to play for the ROI - the "if you don't play for us, you shouldn't play for anybody" mentality.

I have stated that any kid who doesn't really want to play for Northern Ireland isn't really an asset. Their are many who do want to play - from both communities.

I agree with the sentiment expressed earlier in the thread that the IFA should look harder at what they can do to keep kids through the ranks.

I belief it is healthy that the matter will now be aired.

"And before you and the monkey who has come over with you"

I don't know which "monkey" you are referring to.

Comments like that do you no favours - resorting to personal abuse will not further your, reasonably put, point of view.

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