It hurts me and it saddens me as I so badly wanted him to succeed.
Kenny failed tonight. His in-game management was a complete and utter disaster. He may be sacked (unlikely), he may walk (unlikely) and we’ll do the same boom/bust thinking from one manager to the next, one average set of players to the next, but make no mistake:
As a footballing nation, we are EXACTLY where we DESERVE to be.
Ole, Ole, Ole.
Traditionally we've actually been a country with very good central midfielders. Not any longer. Therein lies the problem.
I'm still too sickened to even put coherent thoughts together about the match. Possibly the lowest I've ever felt as an Ireland fan. I've been a massive supporter of Kenny but there's no defending that performance. There's no mitigating circumstances that you can cling to.
But I will say the glee of the "I told you so" comments on here by some people is disgusting. Some almost seem happy with the result so they can say they were right about Kenny. I seriously don't understand people at times
In Kenny’s defence, I didn’t think he got the tactics that wrong.
But he can’t make players pass it to feet. How many times was a pass played slightly behind a player, thus breaking the momentum of the move? This has been an issue in Irish soccer for a few years now.
How many times did we give the ball away, especially in first half, with a sloppy pass 4 yard pass?
That’s the players’ fault, not Kenny’s.
I’m not saying all is rosy but the players have to take as much criticism as the manager for last night.
It really is a new low. We got to hope this brings around massive change in structures so we can develop higher quality players for the future. As for now, I don't see how Kenny can continue in his role after that. Yes our players aren't top level but Luxembourg are hardly world beaters. They were just better coached, better organised, they had a plan, everyone knew their roles. We were outclassed by Luxembourg on the pitch and on the sideline.
It hurts because we all wanted Kenny to succeed. A manager who is positive about our players and wants to play attractively. A LOI man as well. But he's way out of his depth. I think some people's criticism of previous regimes may have to be revised. Some of the stuff under McCarthy was hard to watch but he had us close to qualifying with basically the same players. The thing is we don't have to go back to the long ball tactics of previous managers, we can play a progressive style but we need to hire a manager who's capable of implementing it. Money might be an issue here but one things for sure, Kenny has shown that he's not competent at this level and we need someone new.
Previous managers claimed our players weren't capable of playing a different style than keeping it tight and playing more directly. Have they been vindicated?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Probably somewhat.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
It’s sad that professional footballers can’t get the ball directly to feet with a 5 yard pass. I’ve noticed it for years in Irish football that when a pass is played, under no pressure, the receiver often has to check his run or run slightly back for the ball. Kills momentum.
Luxembourg were well organised and up for it. That’s all they needed
The midfield 3 dynamic didn't work. Knight took on Cullen's role (less effectively) and Cullen looked lost as his natural instinct was to fall positional deep and do what Knight was doing. Resulted in a lot of sideways passing between the two, and killed forward momentum. Moot point in the context of the result.
Not sure if Kenny should go or not, as the culpability for last night's result is not solely his - it's years of neglect and short-termism.
It was harder to get in that Liverpool team than the current one. A wonderful team. Lawrenson was one of the best defenders of his era. World class no doubt and he came through at Preston. Whelan edged another great player in Sheedy to replace Ray Kennedy. That Liverpool team was tactically and technically better than anything on the continent for probably 8-10 years before Heysel. Whelan was a better version of Wijnaldum. Klopp would have loved him. Curtis Jones shows that there remains a pathway for top talent at Liverpool.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
I do think Kenny got the tactics wrong and Luxembourg had a better plan. That's not to do with the players. Also inane substitutions saw a deteriotation in the performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
A general lack of hunger amongst the players is down to them - and also Kenny. I think Luxembourg wanted it more.
Is this the lowest point supporting Ireland in the past 40 years?!! It feels that way. Mainly because this is a culmination, not an isolated shock. If we had a competitive game next week, I would not be confident we’d get a positive reaction.
I was heartened by the Serbia game.
Although one particular feature of both games bothers me - when the need to change things came, the changes were ineffective/horribly ineffective. I thought the first half was ok tonight. However, if felt like time and time again we’d get the ball out to the wingbacks and then the move broke down. The next ball was rarely creative. Maybe a system change was needed but we needed to find a way to make the next phase positive. The changes made actually brought us back. Brady did very little, Browne’s impact went backwards....looked like he was out of position. I could go on.....
Lots wrong with tonight but in game management and lack of insight/flexibility to change is one of of many worries
I think to go down this route would show we've learnt absolutely nothing from the past 20 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by lofty9
We can't rely on other countries to develop our players. Doesn't matter if that country is England or Spain or Luxembourg.
A country our size has to have a proper domestic setup to develop players up to the age of 21/22. Most other countries do. We don't. That's a huge issue.
Rovers in fairness to them are starting to put in a place a proper academy structure and they're starting to reap the benefits of that (as is the national team)
Dundalk, the other big side here at the moment, haven't put anything in place with their Euro millions and are now signing whatever random foreigners they can find. It's their money of course, and unlike most LoI sides they've actually earned it, but it's foundations of sand and will go nowhere in the medium term. Cork have already gone down that route it seems.
Every other country in Europe uses its domestic league to develop players for its national team. We don't. We instead have a 19th-century league structure which encourages big fish in small ponds. The league has no money, the FAI have no money, and the general public have no interest. While that stays, we're going to continue going backwards.
Sending players to Spain instead of England won't change that.
Agree, but I'm looking towards the next 10 years. I'm just hoping Brexit means that more kids can go to teams around the continent and play in champions league games. The way UK football is now with wealth is the death knell of our national team. Every kid is competing with the best in the world. That didn't happen with Whelan, Lawrenson, Brady Etc. The longer term project you and I want, will only happen after the death of everyone who has registered on this forum- it will take that long!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The fact that Shamrock Rovers and every other clubs remit is to sell these players to get income. Damian Duff at Rovers now Shelbourne, Paddy Mccourt, and Colin Healy tell the kids that they will have them over on England, worst case scenario if they apply themselves that they will be playing football as a career in Ireland. Cork have a fantastic set up, but again their kids are getting cherry picked. They work with agents hand in hand like best friends. Working in youth football myself I've lost faith in the vulturism of the new underage LOI format and have seen our own players getting trials at Celtic weeks after joining the Derry academy. The youth academies are not there to provide for first team football in Ireland. The league in its current format has already produced a lot of international players, but via England. Project oblivion needs the stadia sorted and the passion of those who support the national side toward supporting a national league. All the FAI's fault to date but who's going to change that? Who's going to invest 100s of millions in Ireland's National Football League, to rebrand, market, broadcast and build it and take it to a level of say the Belgian or Austrian league? Would you take the MLS standard? Look at the cost of that to get to where its at. Bottom line, our goose is cooked!
Most top European clubs aim to sell players though. Not at 16, but at 21/22 when they've broken into the first team and maybe have some European experience under their belts.
The league has produced remarkably few international players. Fewer than most domestic leagues across Europe.
Don't agree it's entirely the FAI's fault - the general football public is to blame too for ignoring the domestic league - but certainly the FAI have had their priorities very wrong for a long time. And yeah, it's not going to change any time soon. Spanish, Italian, German and French leagues also have wealth and an Irish player is going to have a lot to compete with there too. Plus a language barrier of course.
A lot of very good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by lofty9
What I would say is that players like Whelan, Lawrenson and Brady would break through today no problem at any of the top clubs. They may have to go on a loan first but I've no doubt that their class would shine through. The players we are producing are nowhere what we used to produce. The coaching here was often poor back then, but kids played street football so their technical ability wasn't as behind.
I am actually hopeful for the longer term future. Rovers and Bohs have a very good academy system. We have a very strong cohort of players aged about 19. Bazunu, Knight, O'Shea and Nathan Collins are very good for their age. Molumby, Idah and Parrott haven't kicked on, but a good chance that they may ultimately become important players for us. Parrott is the most concerning because his potential ceiling is very high. What we do need is a few years of similar quality to that 2002 age group. The lads aged about 16 with Heffernan and Zefi do look very promising. That Evan Ferguson is a very good talent too. Unfortunately, bigger countries have a few Fergusons or Zefis every age group, whereas we far more reliant on a generational talent. You see how Wales have benefited from Bale and Ramsey.
I think people are naive thinking it would be great if our players went to say Atalanta rather than Liverpool or United. Maybe clubs that on paper are easier to get through because they are smaller clubs, but with homesickness, it will be probably harder for young lads to make it on the continent. The key will be sending our players to England or the continent when they are 19 or 20 and have a bit more life experience.
I think the next four years will be very depressing personally though because Kenny isn't up to scratch and until we have a team with a decent enough quality in it, very few managers will want to manage us.
I think its an interesting argument, dismissing Dundalk out of hand, i see two things potentially going along a path trying to reach similar goals but going about it differently. If the Americans are willing to stay in and dig in for 10 years, the marketing sides of things could reap benefits. They still need to invest of course in underage and playing structures, but i can see where they are going with it from a purely business model point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Dundalk need to reach European groups in the next 3 years or their money is gone. It would have been gone this year only for a fortuituous qualification route. They have no business model other than trying to reach the groups. That's really not great.
Rovers' business model is based around selling players and reinvesting the proceeds. Same as lots of top teams around Europe. That's sustainable.
What difference does "plummeting through the seedings" make once you're in Pot 3 anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic
You think it's easier as a T3 team than T5?
As to whether it's the our worst ever result, having thought about it, I think the 1995 0-0 draw with Liechtenstein was similarly execrable.
So inevitable did victory seem that Jack didn't even bother to take charge of the first match, which we won 4-0 in Dublin, because he was scouting other opponents, and Setters was at the helm in his stead.
The 1996 European Championship Qualifiers was Liechtenstein's debut appearance in competitive competition, as well. The following year they conceded 11 at home to Macedonia.
Anyway last night's humiliation was certainly our worst home result in history.
Very quiet on here today. Some very sheepish lads I imagine, no one should feel embarrassed it's an opinions based forum!