Preliminary Draw of the 2014 FIFA World Cup Brazil

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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible

Sure, they want the bigger powers in, but that doesn't necessarily determine the morality of such decisions

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Come on, it's nothing to do with morality. FIFA would have preferred France and Russia to qualify, so they had a draw which if not perfectly administered was quite open, based on how we all know they work.

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Or why not just let the four highest-ranked second-place finishers qualify?

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Heh. I'd have no problem with that, provided only that ranking was determined just by current form, ie games in that qualifying series. If a third-place finisher was the 13th best team on that basis, let them go the finals.

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Has the draw been made unusually early? Have we usually been aware of the line-up for our next group before our current one has even concluded? I didn't think so, but could be mistaken

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Draws for European qualifying are usually made between December and February just after the previous qualifying series has finished. So that, inter alia, rankings should be at least a little more closely related to form.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

But we could have had a fairer chance. I thought it was unfair as the groups had already been seeded. Distinction had already been made as to the relative strength of the teams for the purpose of qualification. As such, each team who qualified for the play-offs had finished second on what you might call that original equal footing. To re-seed the teams who finished in the same position as one another, rather than have an open draw, seemed unfair to me as everyone was there on equal merit. Seeding the play-offs simply introduced further unnecessary distinction to blatantly favour the bigger powers after they'd all finished second in their groups. Sure, they want the bigger powers in, but that doesn't necessarily determine the morality of such decisions.

I think it might have been for the 2002 World Cup or else Euro 2000, but would need that confirmed. At least, I remember where they had an open, random draw one year around then after discussing the possibility of introducing seeding, but they eventually went against it as it was proving controversial. Anyway, as it happened, the higher ranked teams were drawn against the lower ranked teams regardless. This obviously raised subsequent suspicion and ideas such as certain balls having being placed on radiators before the draw were discussed amongst the chattering classes.

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I call them "Jim Corr" people.

I've been watching UEFA and FIFA draws for almost 25 years, and I've never thought certain teams were pre-destined to play certain others. Every draw has been conducted at random, according to the seedings at the time. All the balls are at the same room temperature in every draw. Sometimes you have a nice draw, and sometimes you don't. You get what you're given, good or bad, and you get on with it.

I've never seen the problem with the seedings in the last play-offs. Every WC and EC draw is seeded throughout the competition. We didn't do enough in previous campaigns to earn a seeding in the last play-offs, but that's something we have to correct in time. Of course FIFA want the bigger teams on the pitch, but so do neutrals. Places still have to be decided on the pitch, and they are. If we're unsuccessful, then we have another chance to improve next time.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Has the draw been made unusually early? Have we usually been aware of the line-up for our next group before our current one has even concluded? I didn't think so, but could be mistaken.

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Yes, as GR said and myself and I think others pointed this out pages ago. Usually held in the December after the play-offs for the preceding qualifying campaign. Still no one has explained why it was held now.

Another thing I noted about the draw last night, was it not odd that there was no one drawing "group balls" I seem to remember this happening at some stage in the past. Maybe someone can confirm?

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Come on, it's nothing to do with morality. FIFA would have preferred France and Russia to qualify, so they had a draw which if not perfectly administered was quite open, based on how we all know they work.

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I was just speaking from my own perspective in order to explain why I think it was unfair. Not worth anything to FIFA, but we’re all allowed a moan or two now and again. I know why and how it works, but they have to provide some semblance of fairness to make it look like they’ve taken into account ethical considerations when formulating regulations and such. Otherwise, they just wouldn’t get away with it. People wouldn’t bother with it. (Or maybe they would; it's not as if the yearly corruption scandals make a huge deal of difference to FIFA's monopoly over the global game...) What would be the point in having rules or referees though if not to ensure at least some element of fairness or justice remained a fundamental aspect of the sport?

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Originally Posted by mypost

I've never seen the problem with the seedings in the last play-offs. Every WC and EC draw is seeded throughout the competition. We didn't do enough in previous campaigns to earn a seeding in the last play-offs, but that's something we have to correct in time.

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That's the thing though. Beyond the questionable need to double-seed matters, a decision with retroactive effect was taken. If we'd known the full rules in place prior to the qualification campaign starting, maybe we could have approached some games differently. Our home game against Montenegro mightn't have proved such a drab affair then, for example. Who knows? It was moving the goal posts.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Yes, as GR said and myself and I think others pointed this out pages ago.

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Note to self: must try harder. :)

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Usually held in the December after the play-offs for the preceding qualifying campaign. Still no one has explained why it was held now.

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Possibly so they could do the draws for all confederations at once and make as bombastic, flamboyant and ridiculous an affair out of it as possible?

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Another thing I noted about the draw last night, was it not odd that there was no one drawing "group balls" I seem to remember this happening at some stage in the past. Maybe someone can confirm?

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Do they do something unnecessarily complicated like this for the Champions League?

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

That's the thing though. Beyond the questionable need to double-seed matters, a decision with retroactive effect was taken. If we'd known the full rules in place prior to the qualification campaign starting, maybe we could have approached some games differently. Our home game against Montenegro mightn't have proved such a drab affair then, for example. Who knows? It was moving the goal posts.

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It was already known by then that seedings would be enforced. If we were in the top 4 seeds, nobody would have argued. But our results in previous qualifications counted then, as they do now, so we had to take the bottom 4 at the time. I hate the idea of play-offs in any competition, but I would rather be in our position instead of Norway's, who didn't even have a playoff to complain about.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Were you at this one? Ireland v Germany 1936.
In those days you could try to engage the goalie with an uppercut.

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I was indeed. A McDunphy individual (wearing a cape) informed the wireless audience of the jolly match. Germany had a huge hooligan problem at the time and an away match against Poland eventually saw them banned for five years.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I was just speaking from my own perspective in order to explain why I think it was unfair. Not worth anything to FIFA, but we’re all allowed a moan or two now and again. I know why and how it works, but they have to provide some semblance of fairness to make it look like they’ve taken into account ethical considerations when formulating regulations and such. Otherwise, they just wouldn’t get away with it. People wouldn’t bother with it. (Or maybe they would; it's not as if the yearly corruption scandals make a huge deal of difference to FIFA's monopoly over the global game...) What would be the point in having rules or referees though if not to ensure at least some element of fairness or justice remained a fundamental aspect of the sport?



That's the thing though. Beyond the questionable need to double-seed matters, a decision with retroactive effect was taken. If we'd known the full rules in place prior to the qualification campaign starting, maybe we could have approached some games differently. Our home game against Montenegro mightn't have proved such a drab affair then, for example. Who knows? It was moving the goal posts.



Note to self: must try harder. :)



Possibly so they could do the draws for all confederations at once and make as bombastic, flamboyant and ridiculous an affair out of it as possible?



Do they do something unnecessarily complicated like this for the Champions League?

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You must try harder. Your input here is usually so facile and lacking in any sort of coherence or depth that I really don't know why you bother. :P


I seem to remember that the WC2010 draw was as bombastic as that and managed to be in December.

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

I was indeed. A McDunphy individual (wearing a cape) informed the wireless audience of the jolly match. Germany had a huge hooligan problem at the time and an away match against Poland eventually saw them banned for five years.

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Very interesting to note during that how the players were able to harry the keeper when he was in possession and he had to bounce it in order to move around the box a la basketball.

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Originally Posted by mypost

It was already known by then that seedings would be enforced. If we were in the top 4 seeds, nobody would have argued. But our results in previous qualifications counted then, as they do now, so we had to take the bottom 4 at the time. I hate the idea of play-offs in any competition, but I would rather be in our position instead of Norway's, who didn't even have a playoff to complain about.

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Sorry, you're correct. The decision to seed the play-off draw was taken in late September of 2009: http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/soc...255543996.html

Our final group game against Montenegro was in the middle of October of 2009. Still, surely it's only right and to be expected that you know where you stand from the outset. In fact, according to that Irish Times piece, it had initially been indicated that the draw wouldn't be seeded.

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World soccer’s governing body had previously indicated that an open draw would be used to determine who faced who. Instead, it will be based on the Fifa rankings as of October 16th.

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I'm also just noticing that Sweden were ranked behind us for a point towards the end of 2009 when they fell to 42nd, although they've radically improved on that since and moved up to 19th.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Draws for European qualifying are usually made between December and February just after the previous qualifying series has finished. So that, inter alia, rankings should be at least a little more closely related to form.

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This last sentence makes, er, no sense.

The draw for this was based on rankings taken a week or so ago...

And probably months before the WC fixtures are known, based on the ongoing qualification for 2014!

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Our final group game against Montenegro was in the middle of October of 2009. Still, surely it's only right and to be expected that you know where you stand from the outset. In fact, according to that Irish Times piece, it had initially been indicated that the draw wouldn't be seeded.

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It was, but even so, it still wouldn't have stopped us from playing France, just makes it that bit more unlikely.

I had no problem playing France, and the away leg second worked out better for travelling, what I can't take is how the deciding incident in the tie was allowed. I know there have been similiar injustices before, but that doesn't make what happened to us any easier to take, or more correct.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

This last sentence makes, er, no sense.

The draw for this was based on rankings taken a week or so ago...

And probably months before the WC fixtures are known, based on the ongoing qualification for 2014!

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Everyone else seems to have understood it well enough.

If the draw for 2014 qualifying had been delayed until the end of 2012 qualifying (ie, to December this year), then the rankings would have been based on the whole of the most recent qualifying series. Rather than only half of it. And thus more closely related to current form.

tough draw i think, i would say it's the 4th trickiest group so it could have been worse.

envious glances are being cast towards group E (top two: norway and slovenia) and G (greece, slovakia) but pleased to avoid spain and france in group I.

straight qualification looks out, but if we can keep up our recent good form and qualify for the euros, we might get through. i'd agree with those who say it's odds against though.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Anyway I did not see the draw untill now, here is part of it, it is obviously so rigged it is a joke, there is a seriously
dodgy looking bloke picking the balls out and you can see he looking at them and looking for a marked ball to pick out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K-wHl-XXR8

Also look at his long selves, even an amateur magician could slide a ball down his sleeve, and he
does not even have to do that, he can have the piece of paper already in his hand and
switch it.

Ask any amateur magician and they will tell you it is a doddle to rig a draw like that.

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:)
Yeah sure, but Ronaldo?
"Now Ronaldo, put the cold one back and select the warm one"

Ronaldo was selected for FIFA transparency purposes because there was no way the draw could be rigged with somebody so dull-witted at the end of the chain.

Oh but wouldn't that be the whole genius of the plan?

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Germany had a huge hooligan problem at the time

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Bit of an understatement?

Just listening to an interview with Craig Levein there and he expects the fixtures meeting for Scotlands group to be in the last week of August (in or around anyway).

For what its worth.....

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Originally Posted by zero

tough draw i think, i would say it's the 4th trickiest group so it could have been worse.

envious glances are being cast towards group E (top two: norway and slovenia) and G (greece, slovakia) but pleased to avoid spain and france in group I.

straight qualification looks out, but if we can keep up our recent good form and qualify for the euros, we might get through. i'd agree with those who say it's odds against though.

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I'm not sure sure about Auto being out of the question.

Usually what goes against us, we get our draws etc against the top seeds(last WC ones) but then we go and mess up against the smaller/equal countries whereas the top seeds will usually walk through them.

I think in this group, we should be able to account for the three seeds below us much easier then we have in the past few qualifiers in general and if we get our draws with Germany we could sneak it over the Sweden games.

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Originally Posted by gilberto_eire

I think in this group, we should be able to account for the three seeds below us much easier then we have in the past few qualifiers in general

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I think we already have. The two games we'd have slipped up on in previous years would be Armenia away and Macedonia away.

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Originally Posted by gilberto_eire

I'm not sure sure about Auto being out of the question.

Usually what goes against us, we get our draws etc against the top seeds(last WC ones) but then we go and mess up against the smaller/equal countries whereas the top seeds will usually walk through them.

I think in this group, we should be able to account for the three seeds below us much easier then we have in the past few qualifiers in general and if we get our draws with Germany we could sneak it over the Sweden games.

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i like your positivity, but i expect the germans to win every game in the group with the possible exceptions of sweden away and us away. they have an 100% record in the euro qualifiers and have lots of good young players who will only improve.