Republic of Ireland V Russia - Friday, 8th October 2010 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

Am I the only one who is starting to get worried after reading this.. http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1010/ireland.html

"Giovanni Trapattoni has defended his tactics in the face of criticism from Richard Dunne about the Republic of Ireland's style of play.

The Aston Villa defender was left frustrated by the hosts' reliance on the long ball during their 3-2 defeat by Russia in Euro 2012 qualifying last night."

The last thing we need is a falling out over tactics between one of our most influential players and manager

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

He played against Serbia and Colombia I think. It was Nolan and Foley who played in the Nigeria game. I didn't think he was up to much in the games he played. Moved to Ipswich and got a bad injury last year but he seems to be back in the first team now.

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Columbia. That's the game I watched. I thought he was excellent in that game. Really thought he'd push on and establish himself as a left back. Finnan never got a look in last campaign either despite playing Premiership football.
Trap is one stubborn hoor!

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Originally Posted by Willum101

Am I the only one who is starting to get worried after reading this.. http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1010/ireland.html

"Giovanni Trapattoni has defended his tactics in the face of criticism from Richard Dunne about the Republic of Ireland's style of play.

The Aston Villa defender was left frustrated by the hosts' reliance on the long ball during their 3-2 defeat by Russia in Euro 2012 qualifying last night."

The last thing we need is a falling out over tactics between one of our most influential players and manager

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It's a made up headline. Richard Dunne isn't criticising Trap, he's criticising the team's performance and saying we should play like we did in Paris. He is the de-facto captain so it's his job to say that.

I'm sure Trap agrees totally that we should pass the ball more.

One thing Trap is very good at, being a died in the wool club-team trainer, is getting the players out on the training pitch and whipping them into shape between matches. Expect a complete turnaround in performance on Tuesday. See also what he did between the two France matches last year.

We're in the group of incompetence. Expect Russia and Slovakia to drop more points. Whoever qualifies from this group is going to bugger off home from Ukraine/Poland after the first round.

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

My guess at the team for Wednesday Given
O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Kilbane
Lawerence Gibson Green McGeady
Keane Doyle/Long

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(Rte panel style) I agree with Noely here - The most vulnerable player to be dropped is obviously Whelan with Gibson ready to replace.

Green has not ever promised that he would do anything more than scavange, harry -hither and thither. He has delivered exactly what he promised to deliver, ie. graft with no guile. There was nothing to expose with Green. Whelan was at sixes and sevens, the most inept display of a player at CM player since the drubbing in Cyprus and had all the more effect on us because the expectations were different from him.
Even Gibson, who tends to wander lonely as a cloud around the midfield, would have had more presence than Whelan.

I would be surprised if there is a 2nd unenforced change to the starting line-up, at this critical juncture.

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Originally Posted by geysir

(Rte panel style) I agree with Noely here - The most vulnerable player to be dropped is obviously Whelan with Gibson ready to replace.

Green has not ever promised that he would do anything more than scavange, harry -hither and thither. He has delivered exactly what he promised to deliver, ie. graft with no guile. There was nothing to expose with Green. Whelan was at sixes and sevens, the most inept display of a player at CM player since the drubbing in Cyprus and had all the more effect on us because the expectations were different from him.
Even Gibson, who tends to wander lonely as a cloud around the midfield, would have had more presence than Whelan.

I would be surprised if there is a 2nd unenforced change to the starting line-up, at this critical juncture.

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So we'll just be happy to watch another performance of Green not being able to trap a ball and lay of a pass. He is awful and is not an International benchwarmer let alone a player in the side. Whelan was a disaster and has been mainly since he's played for us, but Green is even worse. I think Trap is at fault for his squad selections and anybody here backing him to the hilt as a lot of you do is just brushing it all under the carpet.

Trap has had time to blood real players not these poor passing useless centre midfielders. Lee Carsley would have been better there and what age is he. It's pathetic and was always on the cards. Fahey would be a better option anyone but Green.

Zonal Marking's review of the game: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/10/...ussia-tactics/
not as much of the usual insights from the site as you might expect, but it was simple game to disect. Basically their midfield three passed their way beyond Whelan and Green

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Originally Posted by geysir

(Rte panel style) I agree with Noely here - The most vulnerable player to be dropped is obviously Whelan with Gibson ready to replace.

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Whelan was well below par but he's knows he was poor and I'm fully expecting him to play much better if afforded the opportunity on Tuesday. Green just seem too limited and out of his depth at this point.

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Originally Posted by ShamrockIreland

So we'll just be happy to watch another performance of Green not being able to trap a ball and lay of a pass. He is awful and is not an International benchwarmer let alone a player in the side. Whelan was a disaster and has been mainly since he's played for us, but Green is even worse.

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Whelan is a much better player than you give him credit for, he was extremely effective in the big games last year against Italy, Bulgaria and France. He's extremely underrated by some imo. Having said that he was dreadful on Friday, no argument. As above, I'm expecting much better from him in future.

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Originally Posted by ShamrockIreland

I think Trap is at fault for his squad selections and anybody here backing him to the hilt as a lot of you do is just brushing it all under the carpet.

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No one here is doing this. As has been pointing out to you before, there's a plethora of different views on Trap and his selections, both positive and negative. Mostly these views are fairly measured and emerge through examination of evidence, such as results and performance, instead of being OTT diatribes on the evil's of Trap. Plenty of people, including myself, have been critical of the manager.

Couple of interesting pieces in the papers today. In summary, I think Trap does deserve criticism for not reacting quick enough when the Russian formation was clearly causing us problems. Some papers suggesting that all he need to do was tell Keane or Doyle to drop in and pick up the Russian defensive midfielder, thereby leaving Green and Whelan to deal with two CM's as opposed to three.

Lots of ifs, but remember we actually started reasonably well the other night and couldve gone ahead. Macedonia arent a bad team and if I were their manager, after watching Fridays game, I would make sure we get as much service as possible to Pandev in the box. The Russians defenders are not great and we troubled them almost any time we got decent ball in there (which was far too rare).

Final point, Trap and the team deserve a right of reply. Tuesday night is a must not lose. I think Slovakia are still in pole position in this group. They have won in Russia and havent played Andorra yet (unlike us and Russia). I dont think Slovakia have the skillful players that Russia have so Tuesday is more likely to be a battle of workmanlike organisation. With Doyle out, should we go five in midfield with Gibson playing in an attacking midfield role? Or will Long start on the wing with McGeady given a free role behind Keane. Either way it will be interesting to see how the different approach adopted will work.

First opportunity to respond after the game. Very hard to analyse a game from the SS, which pretty cool (again) btw, but I was that much in shock I came straight back to watch again on RTE player.

Russia were excellent when in possession. From the first minute right to the end. They set their stall out from the kick-off, and I mean the kick off, where they passed their way to the edge of our box. We had a good start (the first 9 mins) then went into CMH mode.
We were bad, and there is no taking away from that, but we have to give credit where it's due, Russia were excellent. They were fluid, technically outstanding, and that's the best performance from a visiting team in a competitive match that I've been at.
What system did they use? I know they'd two centre halves (ignatsevich and Berezuytski) and Kerzhakov upfront, but after that, they were all interchangable. Having watched it again. Denisov and Shirokov were the two outstanding players and Shirokov was man of the match by a country mile.

Given was definitely at fault for the first goal. Poor reactions. I thought he looked uneasy in the first two games and I feel the rustiness is starting to show. His distribution might have looked good on camera, from behind the goal it was very poor.
Dunne did not look fit. Neither did Doyle. Berezuytski owned him. His poorest game for us, and I hear he's out for Tuesday as well, so I wonder was he carrying an injury?
Our wingers, up to the stage where LL was subbed, were very tight and came into the inside flank an awful lot, which meant Anyukov and Zhirkov had acres of space.
Once Russia scored they really slowed the game down and dictated the pace. Their second goal was a beauty. A "goal of the group" beauty. 7 passes which went across the pitch 3 times before a superb cross dummy and finish. Unfortunately it once again showed a problem with balls in behind Killer. He is a trojan, a proud Irishman, but alas, he's past it. Still he wasn't the worst of the night. 3 of our midfielders had shockingly bad games. Glenn Whelan, like Doyle, had his worst game for us, which was compounded by having a player beside him that was overawed and just incapable of producing anything near what was needed against the opposition we faced.

As I said I watched the match immediately after. I actually left the pub after a friend specifically picked out McGeady and slaughtered him. I was stunned as I thought he'd played relatively well and certainly head and shoulders above the rest of the team, and to be honest I think I was right. I watched the game again concentrating specifically on him, and there were 4 occasions in the 94 mins where he could be criticised. He lost the ball 3 times in the first half. Every other time he either took the ball progressively forward beat the man and supplied good crosses, or made a simple pass. Indeed twice he pllayed defence splitting passes. Anything good before the crazy period came through McGeady. I cannot understand the bile that gets thrown at the lad.

Summary. Ireland bad, Russia very very good.

Also, the final system we ended up with was interesting. He more or less dispensed with the two wingers. Gibson didn't seem to have any impact coming on. If anything the ball got hoisted higher!

---------------------------Gibson------------------------
---------------Green------------------Fahey-------------
-----------Long----------------McGeady-----------------
---------------------------Keane-------------------------

I hope there are changes. Green to go (from the team short term, squad medium term). He's not good enough. Kilbane I'm afraid has to be benched.

Stephen kelly or Kevin Foley need a chance. I'd be inclined to go for Kelly as he can slot in at left full, whereas to play Foley means a switch of Josh to left full.
I'd be interested to see what he does with Doyle out. It could save Lawrence who had his worst game for us also. I think Long deserves a start after the impact he had.
A middle two of Whelan and Gibson, with Long, McGeady and Fahey behind Keane could work.

But no doubt something has to change.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Also, the final system we ended up with was interesting. He more or less dispensed with the two wingers. Gibson didn't seem to have any impact coming on. If anything the ball got hoisted higher!

---------------------------Gibson------------------------
---------------Green------------------Fahey-------------
-----------Long----------------McGeady-----------------
---------------------------Keane-------------------------

I hope there are changes. Green to go (from the team short term, squad medium term). He's not good enough. Kilbane I'm afraid has to be benched.

Stephen kelly or Kevin Foley need a chance. I'd be inclined to go for Kelly as he can slot in at left full, whereas to play Foley means a switch of Josh to left full.
I'd be interested to see what he does with Doyle out. It could save Lawrence who had his worst game for us also. I think Long deserves a start after the impact he had.
A middle two of Whelan and Gibson, with Long, McGeady and Fahey behind Keane could work.

But no doubt something has to change.

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Agree with the above, some changes apart from the enforced one of Kevin Doyle are needed, back to last Friday's game, what a weird weird game, I would not have argued if the Russians had won 5-0, yet for all their crisp passing and movement carving us open it still took a goal from a free that never was (the 1st) and a poxy deflected goal to beat us in the end. I know Keane's penalty was soft in the extreme but russia were hanging on at the end.
If we can play on Tuesday night like we did for the last 15 minutes we could/will take the points. I watched Slovakia's home game against Macedonia and let's say they were extremely lucky to win. I know they won in Moscow but we are not playing a powerhouse team here. BTW my local bookie has Slovakia at 5/4 and us at 9/4? I'll have some of that.

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Originally Posted by Willum101

Am I the only one who is starting to get worried after reading this.. http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/1010/ireland.html

"Giovanni Trapattoni has defended his tactics in the face of criticism from Richard Dunne about the Republic of Ireland's style of play.

The Aston Villa defender was left frustrated by the hosts' reliance on the long ball during their 3-2 defeat by Russia in Euro 2012 qualifying last night."

The last thing we need is a falling out over tactics between one of our most influential players and manager

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I think Dunne was more scathing of his teammates than Trap tbh, not that he should escape criticism.

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Originally Posted by Richard Dunne

"It wasn’t good enough. We proved when we played France that we can pass the ball and it’s about being brave enough. We weren’t brave enough tonight.

"We are allowed pass the ball but for whatever reason we don’t feel comfortable doing it. We’ve got to have confidence and have to be braver when we have the ball.

"Going long is probably the easy way out for players. We’ve got to get our foot on the ball and demand it to try and create chances.

"If we keep going long the defence is going to get tired running back all the time and being left wide open. We’ve got to get hold of the ball and try control the game."

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Strong, brutally honest stuff from the de facto captain.

Im just back from dublin after staying up for the weekend so havent read any opinions on the match here or even in the papers. Was too disgusted all weekend and still am really. I just want to say that I think Paul Green is probably the worst player Ive seen play for us in an Qualifer. Ive defended Trap to the hilt on this site in the past but if Green continues to start for us it will be a disgrace. There is no excuse to continue with him in there. He has zero footballing ability or positioning sense. I would choose any of our midfielder from the u21s to replace him, dont care who it would be they would be a vast improvement

Why need anyone on this forum to clarify where the long ball approach comes from when ever-present Glenn Whelan does it himself today:


'It's what the manager sets out and his tactics. Everyone would like to see better football and try and get more passing around the pitch but, if it's not to be and the manager wants something different, then what can you do?'

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/...tardellim.html

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Whelan was well below par but he's knows he was poor and I'm fully expecting him to play much better if afforded the opportunity on Tuesday. Green just seem too limited and out of his depth at this point.



Whelan is a much better player than you give him credit for, he was extremely effective in the big games last year against Italy, Bulgaria and France. He's extremely underrated by some imo. Having said that he was dreadful on Friday, no argument. As above, I'm expecting much better from him in future.



No one here is doing this. As has been pointing out to you before, there's a plethora of different views on Trap and his selections, both positive and negative. Mostly these views are fairly measured and emerge through examination of evidence, such as results and performance, instead of being OTT diatribes on the evil's of Trap. Plenty of people, including myself, have been critical of the manager.

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Whelan was fine when Stephen Reid was beside him for a few games. He and Andrews were'nt bad in some games together but my ratings of these players are from what we have had in the past or others who have been discarded ie Andy/Stephen Reid.

Theres no evils of Trap or his system it's just he is not picking our best 11 and regardless of what you say that will not change my mind. A lot of Irish fans are now coming to this viewpoint. I remember after the WC 2002 and when Mick got of to a bad start in Russia and after the Swiss game when we lost 2-1 at home he was booed at the end of it. He jumped ship after it. Trap seems to be cut a lot more slack than any other manager with the exception of Big Jack who you couldn't do that to as his record stands up to any Irish manager EVER.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Once Russia scored they really slowed the game down and dictated the pace. Their second goal was a beauty. A "goal of the group" beauty. 7 passes which went across the pitch 3 times before a superb cross dummy and finish. Unfortunately it once again showed a problem with balls in behind Killer. He is a trojan, a proud Irishman, but alas, he's past it.

[...]

As I said I watched the match immediately after. I actually left the pub after a friend specifically picked out McGeady and slaughtered him. I was stunned as I thought he'd played relatively well and certainly head and shoulders above the rest of the team, and to be honest I think I was right. I watched the game again concentrating specifically on him, and there were 4 occasions in the 94 mins where he could be criticised. He lost the ball 3 times in the first half. Every other time he either took the ball progressively forward beat the man and supplied good crosses, or made a simple pass. Indeed twice he pllayed defence splitting passes. Anything good before the crazy period came through McGeady. I cannot understand the bile that gets thrown at the lad.

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I don't understand how you can sync up the criticism of Killer with praise for McGeady.

Yeah, Aiden was good in possession, but he left Killer to fend for himself against two top-quality wide men. The second goal came about because McGeady didn't even make an effort to track Anyukov. Killer was left with a choice between following the winger inside or closing down the full back and to his fault he was caught in two minds and ended up picking up neither man. But the situation should never have developed - McGeady should have tracked his man and allowed Killer to follow his man inside the box.

Compare it to the way the Russians defended that flank. On numerous occasions when Kilbane got forward they simply crowded the two men out and forced mistakes. It's what we should have been doing (and it's what Lawrence and O'Shea did a lot more often on the right). I agree McGeady had some good moments going forward, but so did every Russian player and they still put in their defensive shifts too.

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Originally Posted by ShamrockIreland

Whelan was fine when Stephen Reid was beside him for a few games. He and Andrews were'nt bad in some games together but my ratings of these players are from what we have had in the past or others who have been discarded ie Andy/Stephen Reid.

Theres no evils of Trap or his system it's just he is not picking our best 11 and regardless of what you say that will not change my mind. A lot of Irish fans are now coming to this viewpoint. I remember after the WC 2002 and when Mick got of to a bad start in Russia and after the Swiss game when we lost 2-1 at home he was booed at the end of it. He jumped ship after it. Trap seems to be cut a lot more slack than any other manager with the exception of Big Jack who you couldn't do that to as his record stands up to any Irish manager EVER.

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Stephen Reid has NEVER been discarded. He got injured, then he retired.

Trap's been cut slack because he's taken a squad of players who most would consider our most average in three decades and made them into contenders. Sure he's made mistakes but the results - with Friday's glaring exception - have backed it up.

As for not picking his best 11, I've said before only Andy Reid and McCarthy have realistic cases to be included (Ward extremely error prone, the rest in and out of sides etc). Since Andy Reid is considered a bit of a luxury (and has been injured for months) and McCarthy is fairly inexperienced, they're still not gimmies. And I doubt they'd have made any difference on Friday when Russia were rampaging through us.

Though personally I'd much prefer for Trap to have given McCarthy a go by now, at least we're fairly sure he'll get a chance to stake a claim against Norway. And despite what some think, Trap has shown a willingness to introduce those who prove themselves in friendlies.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Russia very good and we were very poor, the bit of a fightback has some merit but it had little to do with cohesive football.
Jebus as usual write sh'ite - Russians didn't make the slightest protest with the penalty award, a clear clip on Keane tripped him up.
Of the 2 at cm, Whelan was much more culpable, hid too far away from Greene and left him to try and deal with everything in the first half. I suspect he had taken a heavy knock to explain the performance or just should not have started.

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There is one bit i agree with on that, what do you think it is?

Ive had a look at the stats and a few days to relax and take stock... i said last year that I had a feeling the way we play under trap that we could be found out some day, if not on top of our game. We were found out friday. Others specifically the more regular members mentioned trap had a plan b and a plan c, of which i showed reservation as we never found it before. He had no plan A nevermind any other plan. Whats comes out since from some of the players says as much too, along with the idea of hoofball. The game we played against them required everyone on top of their game, we let them attack very far forward before we looked like putting in any tackle, they cut through is like a knife through butter, had we harried and harassed them, i wonder would they have looked half as good or felt half as comfortable? I dont think so. The "game plan " trap sets out is open to this happening every so often where we are a bit unlucky or not everyone 100% concentraing and sharp. We could go another 10 games unbeaten but I cuold see this happening again. When was the last time we conceded 3 goals at home competitively? was it as far back as that denmark game in 85? i certainly cant remember in my viewing time.

To the game itself i was getting frustrated in the singing section everyone saying mcgeady do something, mcgeady had feck all decent devliery to do anything, he looked good because the rest were so bad. we know that mcgeady is at his best when running onto a ball and then taking on a man, yet kilbane couldn't seem to hit a pass to him further than 5 yards without being static. And to kilbane, whoever comes on again and says that for the betterment of the team, overall balance, experience blah de blah, really doesn't have a clue. Kilbane may not have directly been responsible for 2 goals, but he was 90% to blame for the second 2. He really really offers nothing. I love the lad but like andrea bocelli sang, its time to say goodbye. Whatever switches are required, make them trap.

I think the next game is crucial in how far trap has come with the players and how much respect the players have for him, if we play a passing game for 90 mins, does anyone here raelly beleive that he gives them the freedom to do what they want? It will show that they once again have gone against him and done their own thing, and what happens if we come home with a win then????

Individually we were very poor, technically inferior in every department, lacked match sharpness and fitness and we were not a well oiled machine, too many people in general not up for it and off their game and as said before, the way we set out our stall means its very hard for us to come back from goals down.

Also meant to finish on that, that the fact that trap doesn't have attack minded midfielders in the squad is proof that he doesn't have an alternative plan if we concede a couple or go down in a case where we drastically need to change things.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Stephen Reid has NEVER been discarded. He got injured, then he retired.

Trap's been cut slack because he's taken a squad of players who most would consider our most average in three decades and made them into contenders. Sure he's made mistakes but the results - with Friday's glaring exception - have backed it up.

As for not picking his best 11, I've said before only Andy Reid and McCarthy have realistic cases to be included (Ward extremely error prone, the rest in and out of sides etc). Since Andy Reid is considered a bit of a luxury (and has been injured for months) and McCarthy is fairly inexperienced, they're still not gimmies. And I doubt they'd have made any difference on Friday when Russia were rampaging through us.

Though personally I'd much prefer for Trap to have given McCarthy a go by now, at least we're fairly sure he'll get a chance to stake a claim against Norway. And despite what some think, Trap has shown a willingness to introduce those who prove themselves in friendlies.

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If Stephen Reid just decided to retire like that why did he not do it years before as he was always plaughed with injury. He was fit and playing for West Brom the second last half of last season, but after the allardyce interview was never looked at again. Andy reid is not a luxury he is talented and better than anyone else in that position. Green and Whelan are quite cleary luxuries if they cannot do the simple jobs in CM right.

Traps interview again shows him to be pig headed and I expect bar injuries like Doyle to have the same 11. Maybe the others players may not have made a difference but at least we'd have blooded them and would now have McCarthy tied to us. If we lose Tuesday everyone will turn on Trap I've no doubt. Ward couldn't be anymore error prone than Kilbane. Ian Hatre is playing better than Kilbane for reading and is an actual fullback not a winger converted.