Player eligibility row

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Originally Posted by boovidge

This guy's a strange one.

Called up for us in January

Called up for Northern Ireland a few days later

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He also qualifies for England.

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Originally Posted by Nedser

Seriously, I give up. I reproduce an exact quote from the GFA stating that people born in NI have the right to choose whether they are Irish, or British, or both and you still argue that it says something completely different. What the GFA says is not open to debate. It does not say or even imply that people born in NI are "British and Irish from the moment of birth". As for babies - I assume their parents can choose on their behalf - that's the way it works with everything else.

You might think logic dictates that they should be both British and Irish from birth, but that's not what the GFA says.

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The GFA is not and never has been any replacement for the Irish and British nationality laws.
It is the lengthy and detailed Irish and British nationality laws which determine the citizenship rights/requirements of people born in NI, not the GFA. The only change that the GFA brought into effect in this regard (citizenship), was the change to the Irish citizenship law which said that now (most) all people born on the Island are automatically Irish citizens from birth.
Do you understand that?


Next task, read this slowly from my previous post as it came to me from Moses.
"Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI.
An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he/she only aspires to be an Irish citizen. NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI."

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Originally Posted by bwagner

They have named they under 17 squad ..it unlcudes Ryan Brobbel who we are also in the hunt for. He is English born and on the books for Middlesboro

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Do you have a source for that?

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

If you think it has run its course or it doesn't interest you, why not just ignore it.

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Cos' Geysir has Ealing Green on the ropes!!!

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Originally Posted by The Bunk

Do you have a source for that?

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Post 255

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Originally Posted by Nedser

Brian Kerr's views on this issue in today's Irish Times:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...265432025.html

His logic seems quite confused and inconsistent - he seems to be saying that it's not fair to recruit NI-born players because NI don't have too many good players to start with. But recruiting Scottish born players is not so bad because they've produced "the likes of Law, Dalglish, Souness, Bremner and Jordan, in better days". :confused:

He also admits to personally "having had early discussions with Darron Gibson about a possible switch to the Republic" yet thinks it's wrong to to pursue "lads who have played for Northern Ireland at underage level". To be fair, at least he acknowledges that he could be accused of hypocrisy!

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Like everything Kerr writes in recent times it has the faint hint of bitterness

Faint ??

Surprised by his reasoning, especially considering his own father was a Belfast nationalist who came south and settled in Dublin.

Well here we have what the IFA will base their case on. Quite amazing stuff!

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-14703993.html

I can't believe they cannot get their heads around 15 & 16, taken together or seperately.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Interview with Patrick Nelson, IFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxwg4mD0sOg

Favourite quote in that video is; "we want Fifa to uphold their own statutes as we read them".

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I'm not sure if it was you and/or others that posted a comment on youtube in response to that video but they have all been removed today. Are the IFA afraid of debate? I had read them and I didn't read anything that could be seen as breaking youtube rules.

sniffer?

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

Link? Quote?

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Post 206.

Can we close this thread already? Clearly the only players that declare for the Republic are the ones that want to. Let the people make their own choice. We're hardly "recruiting" players from a different country.

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Like everything Kerr writes in recent times it has the faint hint of bitterness

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Kerr was and is a nobody in world football...

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Originally Posted by geysir

The GFA is not and never has been any replacement for the Irish and British nationality laws.
It is the lengthy and detailed Irish and British nationality laws which determine the citizenship rights/requirements of people born in NI, not the GFA. The only change that the GFA brought into effect in this regard (citizenship), was the change to the Irish citizenship law which said that now (most) all people born on the Island are automatically Irish citizens from birth.
Do you understand that?


Next task, read this slowly from my previous post as it came to me from Moses.
"Irish nationality only qualifies you for the FAI.
An Irish national born in the North is automatically a British national even if he/she never obtains a UK passport, even if he/she only aspires to be an Irish citizen. NI born are automatic dual citizens. Only the automatic British nationality qualifies a NI born to be eligible to play for NI."

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Geysir, how about you try to understand something? Repeating your own unsubstantiated interpretation ad nauseum does not make it fact. I fully understand what you're trying to say, I just don't agree that it's correct. Do you understand that?

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Originally Posted by Nedser

Post 206.

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LOL!!! :D

Now, I mean a proper source.

A link to a FIFA or Uefa document for example.

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Originally Posted by Nedser

Geysir, how about you try to understand something? Repeating your own unsubstantiated interpretation ad nauseum does not make it fact. I fully understand what you're trying to say, I just don't agree that it's correct. Do you understand that?

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I fear Nedser that no explanation is possible, as you appear to attach way too much value to your (mistaken) interpretation that the FIFA match official, who is prepared to accept an Irish passport as evidence of identity, is in your opinion acknowledging that an Irish citizen is eligible to play for the IFA, that the British nationality is incidental.
An interpretation which makes you ignore the FIFA statutes of Eligibility and the Nationality laws of Britain.
I know FIFA officials are powerful, but that powerful?
If you fully understand my post then what part do not agree with and what do you base that opinion on?

But read before replying
1. UK Agreement 1992 eligibility of players
2. FIFA Statutes - rules of eligibility, article 16 - which outline the UK agreement
3. The GFA - Constitutional Issues - article 1.Vi and annex A 1.
4. The British Nationality Law 1983

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Originally Posted by Nedser

[Brian Kerr] at least he acknowledges that he could be accused of hypocrisy!

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Indeed. He might get some gentle stick when the OWC trawler gets to Torshavn ;)

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the whole basis of Unionism on this island is that they want their country to be the UK, not Northern Ireland (or Ireland)

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Not quite. The basis is that they don't want to be part of the Republic of Ireland. Within that there are integrationists, devolutions, even occasionally some arguing for independence.

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It does muddy the waters, because FIFA's eligibility criteria are based on nationality, and Northern Irish "nationality" doesn't exist in law. As I previously pointed out, there are actually 2 distinct issues being debated here, the second of which is whether it's reasonable to play for 2 different teams. I actually agree with your view on that question though

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OK, I suggested it didn't muddy the waters because basically I agree with you and most others on the thread on the other issue.

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The Faroe Islands situation is very different. It's not a fully independent country, but is certainly more independent than NI. For example, it's not part of the EU and has its own currency

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In practice, the Faroes currency is just different banknotes with the same value, like NI and Scotland's. Isle of Man and Channel Islands aren't in the EU, but won't be joining UEFA or FIFA anytime soon.

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Unless you are very old, you started living in Dublin after FIFA started using that term

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Early 80s (but I'm fairly well-preserved thanks).

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Again this is inconsistent on FIFA's part, and comes down to the UK's special position of power

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You're getting a bit carried away. Anyway, there are other exceptions eg Taiwan.

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Originally Posted by Co Down Green

New 6 county excellence managers..funded by me the taxpayer, primary school coaches..funded by me the taxpayer, ground improvements..funded by me the taxpayer

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That's a lot of taxes, CDG. Are you Michael Ashcroft?

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Originally Posted by Sean Fhear

Lets just go the same way as the Irish rugby team. Nobody cares whether players are catholics or protestants or nationalists/unionists

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Not a rugby fan, but I thought quite a lot of people cared? Which must be why, for example, the IRFU started to play the Ireland's Call song at games to welcome unionists, in turn leading to some criticism
from nationalists.

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It is time to return to one team representing the Island of Ireland. We do not have all this aggro with the Rugby team as to who plays for who. With one team representing Ireland all this aggro about who plays for who will go away

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It won't go away because it isn't going to happen. Stop deluding yourself.

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Hopefully for the most part supporters of Ireland will refrain from calling anyone derogatory names

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That's nice. Hopefully they'll also refrain from demanding other teams be abolished.

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

The FAI is selecting players from 32 counties & all are entitled to play for us, defacto its jurisdiction

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Don't forget all the counties of England and Scotland that they select from (ie, all 'jurisdiction' means here is 'anywhere in the World where someone has an Irish granny').

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To your point about the FAI only approaching catholic players, do you really think this is sectarian?

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I doubt the FAI is sectarian at all. It's just determined- and fairly successful- in finding new players outside the country. There's no inherent reason why they wouldn't try to attract players from unionist areas.

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The only dishonour is the fact that the FAI stuck with such a "gentlemens agreement" for so long, if indeed such a thing ever existed. At best is seems very loose

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Don't be melodramatic, there was no dishonor involved. It mutually suited, that's why it lasted so long.

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Over the years the IFA and their fans have done little to warrent loyalty from the FAI - perhaps in some alternative universe - but not thru the N Irish Vs Ireland games, plus all the other antics I've witnessed over many years

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See immediately above. Like you, I've attended NI v RoI games over the years and seen some antics from both sides. That's what happens in international football- and I've seen just as bad and worse in plenty of other venues across Europe.

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Wanted to avoid this debate, but really laughed that you think you can talk about dishonour. You might think there is more dishonour in:, say, only last year a man killed in Coleraine by football fans celebrating winning the league

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Whoa. Less of the lazty stereotyping please.

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Originally Posted by Newry rep

The anthem/flag/location of the ground is NOT the issue and I wish people would be a bit more honest. Quite frankly there is NOTHING the IFA can do that would make me give my allegience to Northern Ireland/any northern Ireland team so using it as a stick to beat NI supporters is a bit rich

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Fair point. In other words, the IFA should change the anthem because I don't like it, not because you don't.

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Originally Posted by Dan the Man

I think in reality the OWC fans want

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All I want as above is adult players not being able to play for two different national teams. I welcome anyone qualified, willing and good enough to play for NI. I doubt the NI team will ever be entirely unionist, but if it ever is for a one-off game it's not the end of the World- any more than would be the coincidence of a Southern team with 11 players from Britain in the line-up.

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Any word on that meeting GR?

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I didn't mention any meeting. That's the nature of informal agreements, meetings often aren't documented. It would be a bit daft to claim there was no agreement when the claim that there was is backed by decades of player selection.

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Bring on an all-UK team I say! Lets wrap this up once and for all. The NI fans can head to London, and we can get some peace...

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Ha ha. There's no demnd for and no chance of an all UK team. Stop stirring.

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NI fans call the UK a country or NI a country interchangely depending on their argument

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Why is this a problem? They are both countries albeit in different contexts. NI has been playing international football for a century, ergo it's recognised by other countries in FIFA as a country.

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Recently they have started calling themselves Irish to twist an eligibility ruling. Interesting if they are Irish why the would be reduced to insulting 80%+ of their own fellow countrymen/beggars/gypsies...

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What are you talking about? Nobody has just realised they're Irish. Most people in Northern Ireland's ancestors have been Irish for centuries. Which doesn't mean they can't criticise other Irish people, obviously.

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The existence of the NI team is in a much more dubious state than the allowance of any Irish-born person to represent Ireland. The IFA would need to watch themselves...

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There's no doubt about the existence of the NI team. So they don't need to watch themselves unduly, do they?

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This is an interesting pyschological study into what happens when you do not engage with the other strand of the community with which you live. You only hear one point of view all the time, and take it as accepted fact as it is unchallenged

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I'd concentrate on my own psychological quirks if I were you- obsessing about others' football teams for a start.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom Kerry

I think the days of northern catholics/nationalists playing for NI are gone (there will be exceptions)

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Not really sure what you think then? No surprise there. I think many players from nationalist backgrounds will continue to play for NI for the same reasons they always have, although I accept the current row will put off a few.

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english anthem is not accepted by close to half in the 6 counties and nobody in the 26 and righly so after what was done to our country by the britsh/english government

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What are you, 102? The British Government hasn't done anything to you or your country for 90 years. Stop living in the past.

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Originally Posted by Predator

I feel that despite the FAI's ability to select players born in the north, the root of the problem remains the image of the IFA and the Northern Ireland team (and perhaps moreso the actual socio-political climate of the north)

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Aye, your more so is much more relevant. It wouldn't matter how good or better the image of the IFA and NI team, the wider climate remains. I'm broadly comfortable with that image, but there's always room for criticism and improvement.

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the image of playing for Northern Ireland is unfortunately extremely politically-charged and the fault for that must surely lie with the IFA and the fans

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I wouldn't be so sure. You can't seriously claim the IFA and fans created a politically-charged atmosphere single-handed. 3,000 violent deaths might just have been a factor?

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Originally Posted by Dr Peepee

You speak of good players that might otherwise be lost? Through a choice afforded to them. The IFA need to think of it in terms of 'Insulating' themselves from the ruling. That guy Kee has offered the only constructive statements in all of this, in my mind any way. I think the rest is very short sited

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As I said, no player should be able to play for two international teams successively. I think they shouldn't have that choice, no more. It's reasonable, constructive and not short-sighted at all.

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Originally Posted by Endabob

The FAI & IFA both have a role to play in getting this ironed out, I'm far from convinced about an AI team, not because I personally have an issue with it but I think there would be many who would, on both sides of the fence. Maybe in the future but I think we’re still a long way from that scenario

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Fair points. It might be wishful thinking but I reckon the FAI do have something to gain from a compromise deal.

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It’s very convenient & rather schoolyard for the IFA to cry foul and run to FIFA

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Broadly agreed. It's also potentially very wasteful, going to law isn't cheap.

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without them looking at the reasons behind the moves. Why did Lennon retire early? What effect did that have on underage Catholic players in NI? What can be done from the IFA to stem the tide? Personally I think they have made very little effort and a few simple steps would pave the way, replace GSTQ with Danny Boy (used in the Commonwealth games) or something more unique to NI.
If moving from Windsor isn’t an option anymore (I still think the idea of a multi-sports venue in Belfast is a fantastic solution) they should make more of an effort to reach the Nationalist community

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Personally I know they have made huge efforts to attract good players and enduring support (and see NewryRep's point on flag and anthem above). I believe moving from Windsor is back in discussion, a factor being that government will have reservations about grants to a private company (ie Linfield). That said, if refurbing Windsor is significantly cheaper I'd welcome that instead.

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Originally Posted by Silk cut

the FAI and IFA should come together as the AIFA (All Ireland Football Association) and put one team in for FIFA consideration, Irelands Call be the anthem and let football cement the peace process by giving every Irish person a common interest. It would also increase the quality of our team and show those living in the past that they are going to be left behind to cry over the milk they spilt

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No they shouldn't. NI fans want there to be a NI team now and in the future. Nothing to do with living in the past.

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In any case Ealing , I still believe we should follow the example set by the IRFU and form an Irish team. It would have an incredible effect on the future of our country

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Er, we have two different countries.

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Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy

Which is all well and grand. But we have to accept Illegal Colonization

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You don't. There isn't any. Stop talking nonsense.

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As said to fans of the 'North' many times, just be grateful you even have a team

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Why? We don't need to be any more grateful than anyone else.

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Eventually it will be a choice between an AI or AB team

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It won't. There's no likelihood of either in the foreseeable future.

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Except with the exception of Paul Butler (ex-Wolves, Leeds, Oldham), who qualified by marriage, no-one who's not eligible for a passport (or team) via the usual family links has ever played for Ireland, AFAIK. Unlike a Herr.M.Taylor.....

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What's your point? They all qualified under the rules at the time. Someone like Taylor wouldn't now, not a problem.

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And virtually no-one in Ireland refers to it, except in the occasional misguided sporting context , as The 'Republic', FFS

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Right, so everyone agrees with you except, er, the people who don't. I suggested it USED to be more common, as I know from living there.

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Well we could call you 'The Planters' or worse. But why bother?

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Dunno why you bothered to do it 150 times on the last related thread?

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They should stop being so paranoid and recognise that not everyone in their archaic colonial theme park Doesn't want to belong to it or its sports teams, unless they really had to

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We look forward to you leaving the archaic theme park pronto. Ideally on a one-way ticket. You could always try the Republic of Ireland for a change.

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Originally Posted by Poor student

I'm of a purely utilitarian view on the matter and support the FAI in exploiting whatever avenue we have to acquire talent in whatever way FIFA will allow. I can perfectly understand the frustration and even ire of Northern Ireland fans, particularly surrounding the Duffy case, and indeed I'd feel the same if the situation were reversed but football is all about self interest

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Fair enough- although I (like many readers here) thought it was about fair play as well?

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Originally Posted by Third policeman

I know from previous threads that this will provoke EG and GR into apoplectic rage, but after GFF we need to be pragmatic and imaginative in the way that tradiitions are recognised in Ireland and spaces created where traditional loyalties and animosities can be broken down

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You obviously didn't read (or possibly understand) my previous replies. There's no likelihood of an end to the NI team. So I've no reason to be apoplectic, however much you continue to stir it.

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Originally Posted by Sligo Bhoy

The Northern Ireland say they want to keep these players but they do nothing what so ever accommodate them - infact they have done the opposite - they introduce blue highlights to there home shirt, the continue to use the Ulster Banner flag as "their flag" despite it being a symbol of Loyalism in the six counties and they continue to sing God Save the Queen prior to games!!

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Ha ha. I think you might be getting a bit carried away there. You think there's some hidden message in the blue highlights?

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Originally Posted by Noely's guitar

The Linfield crowd last night at the Pats game would also make up a large part of the NI support...the BNP stuff not so funny. And all too real

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Real but they are a very samll minority. You can't lazily stigmatise all international fans on the basis of a few people at a club game.

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The were not Brazil stuff must be soul destroying for all pro footballers in NI. Bouncy, bouncy will suffice over qualifying for a major championship. Sad and delusional

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Spare us the cod psychology. It's only a song; players appreciate enthusiastic support from the fans; NI's ambition to qualify is the same as any other third rank country (ie we won't do it that often, but it'll be all the sweeter for it).

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Originally Posted by SkStu

The only thing the FAI need to stop doing is actively recruiting NI players at underage level. This is not fair at all in my opinion and if it is happening, it should stop

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Probably impossible to distinguish between active recruitment and the other (passive?). If they want to play for the South, let them, regardless of who makes the first approach. But only if they haven't played for NI's adult teams first.

I'd like to hear from someone on this from a "nationalist" background for want of a better word who supports Northern Ireland with their views on this debate.