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2017 was the last time.
It's not the worst of suggestions in fairness. The Premier is booming; why not share things out a bit more?
Obviously the flip side is the First would probably turn into even more of a wasteland if you took out Dundalk and AN Other.
That said, given Cork were full-time in the First last year, I don't think Caulfield's comments that relegation means you "have" to go part-time hold water.
Likewise for Dundalk this year and Waterford when they were in the first division. Not to mention his own Galway side that went full time in the first divisionQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonder88
I think the 10-team premier league has been excellent for the fans in terms of excitement and I also believe it's one of the main reasons Virgin TV decided to add coverage.
A 12-team league can create a cushion for some mid-table teams over the season while the current format stops that.
Just look at Bohs, poor results left them close to 8th position, Reynolds being considered for the sack and then a couple of wins and they are challenging for a top 3 position and all is well for the moment!
The third division format proposal is a necessary requirement for the league. There are so many well established non-league and junior clubs looking for a opportunity to be part of the FAI league format.
The FAI have started the process and the response of some 67 interested clubs show the need for this plan to begin.
Similarly the Women's league needs a second division added with relegation/promotion.
I don't think there's any evidence for that though. There's been seasons with uncompetitive 10-team leagues and sides cut adrift or romping to the title. And tight 12-team leagues.Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
I would say the league is more marketable now because the crowds are going through the roof and there's more interest in general. That started post-covid, not when the league changed to 10 teams (for the third or fourth time in the past 20 years)
Caulfield is right about a 12 team PD (Though could have raised it before so it didn't look like blatant self-interest).
There are usually one or two clubs in the FD who are 'too big' for the division and are biding their time until they're back in the PD. This year it's Dundalk. Last year it was Cork. The year before it was Galway and Waterford. A 12 team top tier would reduce the repetitiveness of fixtures and spread the money and TV coverage around a bit more. Rovers or Bohs visiting Bray or Harps in the PD would do a lot more to draw a crowd in those towns than an FD fixture ever would.
I see that the Cyrmru Premier is due to expand its top tier to 16 clubs after this coming season. Which will be interesting, as I doubt they have the depth of quality for that.
Surely the only reason you would expand the PD from 10 to 12 is because the FD has plenty of teams who could compete at the higher level? Is that the case?
For if not, this might help the one or two clubs which did get moved up, while at the same time filleting the FD even more.
And in the context of a pyramid, enlarging the gap between PD and FD would only add to the difficulties caused by any gap between the FD and the third tier, not lessen them.
It wouldn't need plenty who could compete at that level though. Just 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
What really doesn't help the FD is having the team(s) that gets relegated into it every year going straight back up again. That's where the league is currently at now since Waterford and Galway got their act together and UCD finally found their level. Because there are now at least 11 clubs of a size which would suit the PD, but only room for 10 of them. It will do nothing for the other clubs in the FD if they know that they are essentially there to make up the numbers most years whilst they watch the relegated side(s) go back up at the first attempt, because they are that much bigger than them. With a 10 team league the gap between the PD and FD, relegated clubs aside, is already big and getting bigger all the time. It effectively locks the non-relegated sides out of PD promotion in 8 or 9 out of every 10 seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I disagree with your assertion that an enlarged PD would increase the gap between it and the FD. I think it would actually reduce it - with the 12th-placed club essentially in a mid-tier between the 2 divisions. And it would give lots of FD clubs a shot at promotion and PD access that they would otherwise be locked out of.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Not so, since clubs go through bad times as well as good - just look eg at Dundalk or Cork. So that when (not if) members of the 12 go through a similarly lean spell, you need a pool of credible replacements to draw on from the FD, at least until Dundalk/Cork/Whoever sort themselves out.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Unless, of course, you're happy to see the Chosen Twelve essentially cemented into place in the PD, with one having to do penance in the FD for a season, before being inevitably promoted back up again, at the first time of asking.
Absolutely.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
But that yo-yo effect is merely a reflection of an existing gap in standards and resources between the two divisions. Taking the best two teams from the FD and locking them into the PD would further increase the gap between the two, since greater attendances/money/sponsorship/media etc would stay in an enssentially f-t PD, leaving the FD to try to live off the crumbs somewhere between p-t and well-expensed amateurism. Made worse by the fact you'd be talking about 8 clubs cast adrift, unless the two newcomers somehow managed to get up to FD standards quickly and stay there.
On the basis that "A rising tide floats all boats", what the LOI should be doing is raising standards across the board, starting from the ground up, so that the potential for developing the game at all levels, and in every part of the country, is encouraged and exploited. But unfortunately that takes vision and time, so that it is easier just to shuffle the existing set-up and hope that that works.
How would they be "mid-tier"? What does that mean? They would be a top tier club, until they're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Anyhow, enlarging the PD would mean instead of PD teams 9 and 10 facing the prospect of relegation each season, it would be 11 and 12. Meaning that two more teams (9 and 10), by definition not really good enough to challenge at the top, would be insulated from the threat of relegation each season, too.
And what would that do for the FD?
Id be 100% against going back to a 12 team league.
We swap two home Dublin derbies against Bohs, Shels, Pats which generate substamtial home support and away fans which translates into Euros for a deason that is 3 games less and 3 big Dublin Derbies less..it would be a major financial hit.
Unless we dit it like Scotish Premier with 33 games then a 5 game top 6 playoff...that might mitigate some of the revenue loss bit then that presupposes that the big Dublin derby clubs all finiah top 6.
I realise im not thinking of the greater good here neccesarily but i also think that taking for instance Dundalk and 1 other out of the first division leaves a pretty weak division from which promoted clubs will potentially be cannon fodder when they come up.
Of course clubs don't have to go part-time if relegated to the 1st division, Caulfield probably said 'likely to' in his interview with local media. My mistake.
However it is difficult to finance it over the long term I feel.
He comments were made during the the run of fixtures against Waterford, Sligo and Cork and pointing out the amount of work that goes into keeping provincial clubs competitive at the higher level in the LoI. He is putting forward the case of the clubs outside the pale, except Derry due to their backer, and questioning the current expansion plan of the departing FAI football director. Self-interest? not sure
Your "long term" comment is pertinent, I'd say. So that a club like Dundalk could probably sustain f-t football in the FD for a season (two?), but what if they didn't bounce back quickly?Quote:
Originally Posted by wonder88
The Premiership in NI also operates such a system, and even though we suffer the same Belfast vs Country disparity as the LOI (Dublin vs The Rest), I think most fans accept it as the best compromise.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
It must inevitably weaken the FD.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
While there is no guarantee that the PD would be that much strengthened; and even if it was, would that compensate for the damage to the FD?
Difficult questions.
Well I was asked a question just giving an answer.. yes I can say a number of our team are well good enough, 2 currently with Sligo first team. Some decided to stick to GAA instead of travelling to Dublin. A lot left with Elding..
As long as the academy and first team are split we are only pretending to be a football club, can't see how people don't see this.
Our best underage team ever from 3 years ago, just 1 still in club. A football club keeps its best players, we let Owen Elding walk away lol
A club should make it as easy as possible to progress through the levels. Academy players should be brought into senior training. This doesn't happen as first team trains in Dublin and has Dublin managers who literally do not look at or care about the Academy
Did we train in Dublin throughout the 80s and 90s? I don't know if we did or not. However the national league Academy system has changed a lot, and is the main reason the LOI is now booming. I remember people on here going against that at the time! Like some genius saying Academy football isn't experience lol, shur there were people saying Longford doesn't need a skatepark too there will always be pushback that's why it's so so important to always ask oneself the question: well what have you achieved and that will give an indication of whether one's opinion is worth anything really
Anyway who cares really, like so many others I am getting the f out of Longford
Off topic but have longford ever approached center parc to be a shirt sponsor with free tickets for longfors home matches for visitors the parc.
I stayed in the parc a few years ago and was going to one of the matches but it was rained off. Only for I'm half mad like the rest of us I wouldn't have known there was a match in longford and people are always looking to fill evenings on holidaay
Dear ChatGPT.....
Can you give me a number of quotes from top football managers about the importance of academy football
ChatGPT said:
Certainly! Here are several insightful quotes from top football managers and professionals emphasizing the importance of academy football and youth development:
⚽ Ole Gunnar Solskjær (Former Manchester United Manager)
“As Sir Matt [Busby] once said, if they're good enough, they're old enough. We are built on that tradition. We need young players coming through. It's important for the Academy and the players in the Academy to know that, yes, I am looking to progress players through.”
Manchester United
🧠 Arsène Wenger (Former Arsenal Manager)
“We do not buy superstars. We make them.”
Jobs In Football
“Young players need freedom of expression to develop as creative players... they should be encouraged to try skills without fear of failure.”
Jobs In Football
🏆 Sir Matt Busby (Legendary Manchester United Manager)
“Youth development is the lifeblood of any successful football club.”
Bookey
🇨🇱 Manuel Pellegrini (Manager of Real Betis, Formerly of Manchester City)
“For me, the youth academy has a fundamental role in every club.”
List Quotes
+1
BrainyQuote
+1
🏴 Gareth Southgate (England National Team Manager)
“The quality of our academy system is very high, as good as anything in the world. Around the country, lots of people in youth development are keen to get together and find a solution to that 17-to-21 age bracket and how we get those players playing.”
List Quotes
🏟️ Harry Kane (England Captain and Striker)
“The more players who come through the academy and make it into the first team, that's what we want. Not just for the club but for the country. If they're young English players coming through, that's fantastic. I'm happy to be part of that.”
List Quotes
🇷🇴 Gheorghe Hagi (Former Romanian International and Manager)
“If my academy has become an example for others then that’s a very good thing... My mission now is to help others achieve their dreams, in football and in life.”
Inside FIFA
These quotes underscore the pivotal role that youth academies play in nurturing talent, fostering club identity, and ensuring the long-term success of football teams. Managers and players alike recognize that investing in young players not only benefits individual careers but also strengthens the sport as a whole.
If you're interested in more quotes or insights on this topic, feel free to ask!
Sources
You said:
Is there any plausible reason a serious football club would have their academy train 100km + away from the first team?
ChatGPT said:
It is unusual for a serious football club to have their academy based over 100 km away from the first team, but it’s not entirely implausible. There are a few possible reasons—though each comes with significant drawbacks. Here's a breakdown of plausible justifications, followed by why it's generally a bad idea.
✅ Plausible Reasons (Under Specific Circumstances)
1. Legacy Infrastructure
The academy may have been established before the current first-team facilities were built or moved.
It might be located in a region with a strong youth development tradition (e.g., club roots, successful past graduates).
Example: Some South American or African clubs operate satellite academies far from the senior base due to historical or local talent pipelines.
2. Geographic Talent Pool Access
Placing the academy in a region rich in young talent—especially if the first team is in a smaller or less populated city.
Could give the club a competitive edge in scouting and recruiting early.
But: Most top clubs address this through regional academies or satellite centers, not their main academy.
3. Cost or Space Advantages
Land and operational costs could be far cheaper in rural or less urbanized areas.
More room for facilities, accommodation, and pitches.
4. Regulatory or Political Issues
In some countries, zoning laws, tax incentives, or governmental partnerships might encourage academies in specific locations.
❌ Why It’s a Problem for a Serious Club
Integration Issues
One of the main goals of elite academies is to create a pathway to the first team.
Distance makes it much harder for academy players to train with or even observe the first team regularly.
Scouting and Monitoring Challenges
First-team coaches and technical staff will rarely, if ever, see youth players in action.
Psychological Distance
Young players feel disconnected from the club's main identity and environment.
Less inspired if they don't see a real route into senior football.
Operational Inefficiencies
Logistics around player movement (training invites, injuries, emergencies) become slow and costly.
Reputation and Recruitment
Top talents and families may prefer clubs where youth development is closely aligned with first-team football.
🧠 Final Thought:
While there may be some unique or historical justification, having your main academy 100+ km away from your first-team base is generally seen as a sign of strategic misalignment in modern football. Top clubs (like Ajax, Barcelona, Manchester City) integrate youth and senior setups closely—for good reason.
If you're looking into a specific club or situation, I can analyze that too.
...
Think I'll stick with my own informed observations on this one backed up by top professional managers and Artificial Intelligence!!!
I dont agree with one of your reasons - that our best supported clubs would lose out on gate receipts! But I think the jeopardy and competition in a 10 team league works for us, at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
But if it was to grow, Dundalk for obvious reasons, then Treaty, Limerick being bigger than Galway and Waterford. From the remaining 8, argurments could be made for a few of them, but hard to see over a longer term.
In saying all that, I dont think all our exisiting 10/11 full time clubs are viable.
Some of our early seasons in the league we could have had half the team from Longford, but only a couple of those players ever attracted interest from other Loi clubs and mostly at a similar level. AFAIK we always trained in the Dublin area, or this side of Dublin, with small numbers travelling from Longford and larger numbers coming from the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keen2win
From what I hearabout academies in the DUblin clubs young players having 12 hours a week contact time with coaches, would we even manage half that?
A 12 team league would dilute the quality of the league. I highly doubt it's something being considered at the top level.
I've been reading and suggesting my own alternative league structures for over a decade here and elsewhere. Suggesting it'd be the solution to generating interest in a failing league. Now we have 2 divisions which work well(ish) and interest has never been higher, with a fully professional premier division. If it's not broke don't fix it.
What we need imo is more clubs playing at a higher level, not necessarily more players playing at the highest level.
"Now we have 2 divisions which work well(ish) and interest has never been higher, with a fully professional premier division. If it's not broke don't fix it."Quote:
Originally Posted by yurt
I agree with your post, especially the above. I also am excited with the FAI's plan for a new National League third division. Hopefully it gets going as planned and as with all new ideas, it will have its issues at the start.
Significantly, the real intention is to create new competitive platform and pathway for non-league clubs which should also make the first division more competitive.
Back then our senior mgrs were Dublin based or outside the county except for Zac Hackett which was pretty much locally based training wise I imagine!So would think that other times that some trained in Longford and rest in DublinQuote:
Originally Posted by Keen2win
It's interesting to know when we started to sell our soul to Dublin.. LOI was different then, now there is thousands being spent on an academy that is not focused on producing players. We have lost millions letting Owen Elding go!
Has any 17-year-old academy player in the history of LoI generated millions for a club?
Depends how much he is sold for pineapple, that's what a football club is about developing players and keeping your best performers! Out of interest do you have any experience in football or are you just an entitled dubliner?? Cos I saw you going on about Kerry FC shouldn't be in the league, typical nonsense from an entitled dubliner with zero experience in the game!! That's what I figured straight away anyway
Well duh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keen2win
But has any 17-year-old academy player in the history of LoI generated millions for a club?
I'd love to see your football cvQuote:
Originally Posted by Keen2win
30 years of watching the game, all levels, taught me more than all the coaching badges gained and to a decent level too via FAI and FA. Ive a degree in Sports Science, worked in sports development for local governmet and an NGB, Im not from Dublin. Am I allowed an opinion? Ive raised questions on the county model using Kerry FC as an example also.
Do you have a league medal though. How dare you post here without one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Melia maybe? But he'll be 18 when the transfer goes through technically. Either way he's the exception that proves the rule in this case. Also something that seems to be missing from Keen's analysis is that Longford could have offered Elding the highest contract in the division and he probably still would have left because he went to a premier division team that has a necessity to play youth players. Longford were never going to keep him and so would be missing the millions regardless of any future transfer fees.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Also if it became a requirement to be involved in football at some level before commenting on it then the entire sports journalism industry would collapse :D. Keen is either the most one note troll you'll ever see or someone who has more passion than sense.
Melia wasn't (isn't) a 17-year-old academy player though. He was a senior player at 15. Elding was 17 (just) and without a senior game when leaving LongfordQuote:
Originally Posted by Another Bohemia
I'm getting very confused I think I should probably just delete my foot.ie account leave you all in peace. Amen 🙏
You wouldnt know whats in a contract, and any player would be trying to get the best options they could get and the club trying to do the same. A release clause here might be a financial amount, the player might want that at 10k, the club at 100k and the compromise somewhere in the middle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keen2win
For young players then even in our own league you have the dog eat dog competitive nature of it - for example Shamrock Rovers Michael Noonan has passed out some of the others in his own club who are also ranked very highly - including a kid from Longford Goodness Ogbonna.
I hope LTFC turn it around and I love Dubliners as I do Longfordians
To bring this back on topic, do we have any updates on clubs and how many clubs want to join the 3rd tier?
It might be easier to form a list of clubs that DON'T want to join the 3rd tier? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by LTFC
To be fair over 60 expressions of interest went in, but where those are now I dont know, but does seem that appetite is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Does anyone know much about the current setup at Ringmahon Rangers? They're due a few million from Kelliher's transfer, would be great if this sort of money was coming to an intermediate side who were already planning on stepping up the national level
A reported €3 million payday! :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by yurt
Judging by the item on Virgin Medias report on CK from Ringmahons ground yesterday they seem like a well organised club!Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637