ForzaForth has it listed as around 360 on the Wexford forum here. Never usually too far off as well.
Printable View
ForzaForth has it listed as around 360 on the Wexford forum here. Never usually too far off as well.
What people forget is that we only were averageing 3k before we started winning stuff in 2020.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Half our fans arent happy unless we are top of the league and vote with their feet.
If we dont win the league this year our average gate will fall dramtically. kids want to be entertained and watchig a team struggle (in relative terms) isnt as much fun as turning up to watch am exhibition.
i title from 1986 to 2009 it doesnt take the auld lads happy but the new crowd are different
If 4000+ is your low base then I wouldn’t be too worried. If every club was working of minimums of 4000 the league would be even stronger than it currently is.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
I am still not convinced that the Pats figures as correct, yes they have significantly increased crowds, and long may it continue, and same for all clubs, but 4,811 last night?
Shels took a large crowd, but behind their goal was not full, poss 3/4. The away seating end of main stand was half full, call it 800 in total away support. Then a good few gaps all along that stand but jammers to be fair at Ultras corner. Call it 1200 max home fans main stand. Behind the goal, another decent crowd, looked to be 1k, add all up - 3,000 (give or take).
This leaves around 1,800 on the camac side?
Also what is the capacity of Richmond these days?
Feels like proper deja-vu having this conversation every time you (or maybe it was another Dundalk fan in the past) brings this up every few months. Capacity is around 5100. No tickets go on sale for the main stand for any game this year as it’s sold out by season ticket holders already. There can be gaps in the main stand but as mentioned the ultras section usually tends to be over full with more people standing than there are seats, as well as people standing on the steps. The Camac is absolutely rammed pretty much every week and has the highest capacity of any of the sides of the groundQuote:
Originally Posted by oriel
Nigel, figures quoted for Wexford usually come from a "reliable source," so should be ok as a rule.
Since Thursday 7,500 tickets sold for Friday's clash at Tallaght between Premier Division leaders Shels and five-in-a-row Shamrocks!
:embarrassed:
2,423 at the RSC last night, great attendance for the home club for a Thursday night fixture, great promotion work being done by the club!
8276 at Rovers/Shels
4431 at Bohs/Pats
2302 at Galway/Dundalk
2679 at Derry/Sligo
The too many Dublin clubs theory has certainly died on the vine since Covid.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
Great crowds in Dublin for the past few years. Do you think any Dublin clubs will be involved in the 3rd tier whenever it starts up?
Yeah have to admit that I was guilty of completely underestimating the ceiling of the Dublin clubs fan base.Quote:
Originally Posted by D24Saint
Dublin derbies and the increased number of away fans at these games has been a big part of the game day experience/atmosphere in the LOI.
Pretty jealous of those clubs getting big-ish once a month but definitely scope for another Dublin club or two in a third tier.
Athlone v UCD - 541
City v Treaty - 2,523
Kerry v Harps - 420
Wexford v Bray - ?
Longford v Cobh - 264
That depends on what basis the assertion is made.Quote:
Originally Posted by D24Saint
If it's on crowds alone, then yes - Dublin has a large enough population to sustain 4 'big' clubs at an LOI level.
However : If it's on the basis that our game should ideally be more evenly spread around the country....
It’s a moot argument none of the four clubs are going to vanish into thin air to facilitate decentralisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
There was no suggestion that they either could or should. Instead the issue is more about future expansion of the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by D24Saint
There was a good reason why the idea of Kerry joining the LOI was widely welcomed, but another Dublin club just wouldn't have been.
Full weekend rundown:
Shamrock Rovers v Shelbourne - 8,276
Bohs v St Pats - 4,431
Derry City v Sligo Rovers - 2,679
Waterford v Drogheda - 2,423
Galway United v Dundalk - 2,302
Cork City v Treaty United - 2,523
Wexford v Bray Wanderers - 674
Athlone Town v UCD - 541
Kerry v Finn Harps - 420
Longford v Cobh Ramblers - 264
TOTAL - 24,533
Missing:
Longford v Treaty - 13th May
Bohs - 4,308 (4,243 {2023}; 3,209 {2022};2,878{19}; 2,148; 2,006; 1,627; 1,724; 1,395; 1,597; 1,496; 1,488)
Derry - 2,938 (3,336; 3,184; 2,049; 2,297; 1,517; 1,563; 1,124; 1,106; 1,446; 1,460; 2,135)
Drogheda - 2,008 (1,916; 1,941; 721 FD; ; 377 FD; 850; 583 FD; 813; 1,064; 817; 977; 811)
Dundalk - 2,497 (2,636; 2,689; 2,775; 2,738; 2,674; 2,738; 3,158; 2,534; 1,997; 949; 1,355)
Galway - 3,110 (2,018 FD; 2,081 FD; 780 FD; 746 FD; 1,376; 1,169; 1,290; 975 FD)
Pat's - 4,547 (4,232; 3,489; 1,919; 1,621; 1,504; 1,088; 1,321; 1,386; 1,687; 1,474; 1,346)
Rovers - 6,235 (6,109; 5,379; 3,384; 2,749; 2,809; 2,041; 2,890; 2,269; 2,763; 3,127; 3,779)
Shels - 4,195 (3,393; 2,913; 1,071 FD; 654 FD; 496 FD; 554 FD; 596 FD; 713 FD; 1,114; 1,187; 781 FD)
Sligo - 2,773 (2,555; 2,166; 1,995; 1,853; 1,717; 1,750; 1,750; 1,959; 2,342; 3,007; 2,103)
Waterford - 2,925 (1,833 FD; 1,705 FD; 1,496; 2,329; 1,550 FD; 314 FD; 460 FD; 470 FD; 478 FD; 453 FD; 466 FD)
FIRST DIVISION
Athlone - 675 (872; 307; 382; 130; 154; 156; 314; 653 PD; 754; 271; 200)
Bray - 656 (663; 482; 773; 643 PD; 966 PD; 957 PD; 769 PD; 718 PD; 891 PD; 965 PD; 1,121 PD)
Cobh - 878 (1,020; 872; 268; 236; 358; 403; 366; 223; 439; 2008 - 1,122 PD; 681)
Cork - 3,380 (3,666 PD; 3,517; 2,505 PD; 4,245 PD; 4,559 PD; 2,533 PD; 3,263 PD; 3,777 PD; 1,965 PD; 2,786 PD; 2,128)
Harps - 1,198 (1,154; 1,293 PD; 1,154 PD; 708; 1,202 PD; 1,216 PD; 784; 449; 479; 429; 433; 644)
Kerry - 665 (784)
Longford - 517 (679; 500; 610; 449; 342; 488 PD; 803 PD; 567; 379; 365; 315)
Treaty - 1,566 (642; 695)
UCD - 316 (809 PD; 953 PD; 739 PD; 365; 236; 297; 216; 397 PD; 487 PD; 506 PD; 558 PD; 610 PD)
Wexford - 595 (689; 445; 235; 181; 338; 585 PD; 553; 331; 227; 302; 216)
PREMIER AVERAGE: 3,613 (3,289; 2,687; 2,185; 2,170; 1,902; 1,476; 1,681; 1,502; 1,566; 1,630; 1,547)
FIRST DIVISION AVERAGE: 992 (1,035; 1,193; 586; 413; 477; 476; 486; 495; 391; 372; 578)
OVERALL AVERAGE: 2,333 (2,162; 2,051; 1,500; 1,249; 1,387; 1,117; 1,249; 1,160; 1,140; 1,125; 1,110)
OVERALL PREMIER ATTENDANCE: 321,564 (592,093; 486,365; 393,238; 316,515; 376,627; 292,204; 332,805; 297,334)
OVERALL FIRST ATTENDANCE: 84,327 (186,369; 178,000; 79,115; 55,756; 53,461; 52,807; 54,474; 55,408)
OVERALL COMBINED ATTENDANCE: 405,891 (778,462; 664,365; 472,353; 372,271; 430,088; 345,011; 387,279; 352,742)
On the basis that "A rising tide floats all boats", then surely just because Dublin has enough of a population with an interest in football to support extra Senior clubs, shouldn't automatically mean that the game cannot also expand throughout the rest of the country as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Or are people in the rest of the country going to stop taking an interest in the game just because more people in Dublin are doing so?
I look at NI where there are four Belfast clubs in the Premiership and three more in the Championship (was four, only Kockbreda just got relegated). This hasn't stopped the growth of football in the provincial towns at the same time, whether "sugar daddy" clubs like Larne, or village clubs like Loughgall etc.
Or look at England, which currently has 7 London clubs in the PL alone, plus another half-dozen or so EFL clubs - the rest of the game is thriving, too. Or Argentina, where Buenos Aires has more professional clubs again than London. Or Uruguay/Montevideo.
All very interesting. But the bottom line is that if you ask LOI fans if they would have a preference for more clubs in Dublin or more elsewhere in the country, the latter would win out.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I think there was space for Sporting Fingal in the league but Cabinteely have shown that there is little appetite elsewhere in the county.
Fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
But how does "asking the fans" translate into actually producing new Senior teams, whether in Dublin or elsewhere?
The question should not be where new clubs might come from, rather it should be what kind of club should you be looking for. Do they already exist, but are being somehow excluded? Or if they don't exist, how can you encourage and develop them?
On which point you need a League structure which encourages and rewards ambitious, progressive and sustainable Intermediate clubs to aim for Senior, LOI football, thereby creating extra competition throughout the whole set-up.
And whether those clubs should all come from Dublin, or none of them, shouldn't much matter, other than for the look of it.
P.S. To get the thread back on topic, how much of the impressive growth in LOI attendances has come from Dublin clubs, and how much from provincial clubs, both percentage-wise, and in actual terms? (Nigel? Anyone?)
For in order to be sustainable, clubs ultimately need to base their finances on fans through the turnstiles. And if Dublin is outperforming other regions in this respect, then unless it has reached saturation point, shouldn't you be looking to capitalise on that further?
Despite being pretty successful, and also trying quite hard on the promotional side of things, Sporting Fongal still didn't generate a fanbase for itself in a well-populated area. Admittedly they didn't havev a lot of time to do so - but they also did have the benefit of a big showpiece cup final event to draw new supporters in. Maybe they would have fared better under the post-Covid eraof greaterinterest in the LOI. Or maybe the same issues that prevented them from doing so then would just have continued into now (i.e. the fact that anyone in North Dublin who wants to follow LOI has 2 other well-established clubs to choose from instead).Quote:
Originally Posted by D24Saint
I coud see a club like Ballymun maybe carving a niche for themselves in the LOI First Division. But it's important to note that whilst there have been multiple attempts over the last 40yrs (Sporting Fingal, St Francis, St James's Gate twice, Dublin City, Cabinteely, Home Farm everything), the last successful/sustained entry of a Dublin club into the LOI was 73yrs ago (St Pats in 1951)
In the 40 years since the LOI reorganisation in 1985, when two or three clubs were elected to the new second tier, how many clubs from outside Dublin have become "successful/sustained" in the league?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
UCD and Derry are both exceptions to the rule we're discussing, and so not able to be replicated, so that leaves Wexford and Kerry. I'm not sure you could call Wexford esp "successful", and would they be "sustainable" without Mick Wallace? (genuine question). Either way, I'll give you that one.
As for Kerry, it's too early to say - looking purely from the outside, my guess is that it could still go either way, but I'm open to correction on that.
UCD joined the league in 1979 (apologies : I omitted them when talking about the last Dub club to join the LOI and stay the distance :shock:).Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Cork and Longford joined the league in 1984, and both are still going.
Bray, Cobh and Derry joined the league in 1985 and are still going.
Wexford joined the league in 2007 and are still going.
So there's SIX regional clubs, excluding Kerry, who have joined and stayed the distance since the 1980s (albeit with a brief hiatus for Cobh). No Dublin clubs have managed to do that over the same period, even though quite a few have tried (including an established former league club who tried twice).
I don’t think Mick Wallace is involved with Wexford Fc anymore ,as far as I know they moved to a Supporters Co Op model in 2017 and have since got investment from other sources ….Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
"Six"?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Some creative accounting there! The "Cork" you cite is hardly a new entrant, more a revival of any number of Cork clubs in the past. Certainly not a new part of the country. Longford were elected in 1984 (as a replacement for s.o.?), while Bray and Cobh were both elected following a major redevelopment of the LOI in 1985 (new 1st Division introoduced), meaning that in the absence of any future such redevelopment - and there's none in sight - that isn't able to be repeated.
As for DCFC, come on, they had been an established Senior league club for over half a century before they fell into the lap of the LOI. Or do you somehow imagine that you're going to find more new LOI clubs from NI?
As for all the other Dublin clubs who've tried and failed, are you forgetting all the non-Dublin clubs who've done the same? Thurles Town, Newcastle West, Salthill, Mervue, Monaghan, Kilkenny City, Kildare Co. - any more?
Which surely shows that it is a major structural problem which prevents new clubs from entering the LOI, not a geographical one.
Meanwhile, to get this back on the topic of attendances again, has anyone calculated where the last few seasons' increases have come from, along the lines of Dublin clubs vs non-Dublin ones?
You never miss an opportunity for a bit of Nordy-splaining or to have subtle digs at the LOI do you? :embarrassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The fundamental point still stands. Multiple clubs based outside Dublin have joined the league over the last 40yrs and stayed the distance. Not a single one from Dublin has, despite many trying. Which kinda undermines the original point really : that there is room for more clubs in Dublin.
Come off it! Your attempt to claim DCFC as some sort of "success" for the regionalisation of the LOI beyond Dublin was risible. Or did you imagine no-one would notice?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
"Multiple"?Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Aside from the clubs elected in the reorganisation of 1984/85, there has been (I think) precisely one new, regional club which has entered the league in the following (ahem) 39 years and lasted. And with all due respect, Wexford have hardly stormed the league, have they?
As for the failed Dublin attempts, how does mere location explain all the failed Regional attempts I listed? It's clearly a structural problem, not a geographical one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It is indeed largely Dublin. There's been fairly minor increases across the rest of the board, and mostly at Premier Division level. The First Division averaging 1,000, or thereabouts, is definitely a boost, but nothing substantial.
Take 10 years ago, versus this season, for example (excluding Shamrock Rovers B and Kerry FC for balance).
End of season average for Dublin teams - 1,232
End of season average for the rest of the league - 1,141
2024, so far;
Current average for Dublin teams - 4,052
Current average rest of the league - 1,855
Interesting stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
And to take it further, do you have any idea whether/which clubs may be being inhibited by capacity constraints? For example, I believe Shamrock Rvrs are generally able to accommodate most/all who wish to attend, as opposed eg to Derry, who could usually accomodate more if they were allowed to.
Is this maybe a Dublin stadium thing, to explain their clubs' big increases and the regional clubs' smaller increases?
The reasons for the growth in the clubs attendances, particularly the Dublin clubs has not been fully explained, and the little I know of it would be that Pats and Bohs both put a significant effort into their community relations, albeit different strategies, and that has borne fruit with steady growth since the covid hiatus. Rovers were probably a little further down that road, with SHels getting in on the act - another poster said their community officer came from Rovers I think.
In terms of the rural areas, really difficult to get a club with an identity that attracts people from all over the county - Athlone for example would have little or no support from the second largest town in Westmeath and despite a quarter of Athlone being in Roscommon, people in the rest of Roscommon would not be following them. Kerry would have similar challenge, getting the Killarney and Listowel people following them.
We are in a small county with the largest town having 11,000 people, and the county having less than 50,000. Us getting 1000 through the gate is like one of the Dublin clubs getting 30,000, or if we want the 4 Dublin clubs getting 30,000 between them.
Did'nt Galway & Thurles Town join at the same time, a Galway team have more or less been in the league ever since except for 2012, I think while Thurles Town lasted about four years before they withdrew!
Re the former:Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
"[Galway Utd FC] were founded as Galway Rovers F.C. during the 1930s. They made their League of Ireland debut in 1977–78 and changed their name to Galway United in 1981–82. After suffering financial difficulties, the club dropped out of the League of Ireland after the 2011 season but in 2014 Galway United returned initially playing as Galway F.C. for a season."
So while technically the present team may be a "new" one (unsure?), effectively they're the latest incarnation of a previous one which has been in the LOI for 47 years.
Re the latter:
"Thurles Town A.F.C. was formed in 1950. In 1977 they merged with Peake Villa to become Thurles Town F.C. and in order to enter a team in the League of Ireland. Thurles Town played in the League of Ireland from 1977–78 until 1981–82."
I'd stick with 200 for Longford V Treaty Nigel.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Nearly halfway through, Premier Division figures are good. The 312k total at this stage means we could pass the 600k for the season. Of the 8 clubs that stayed in the division, 6 showing growth the 4 Dublin clubs and Sligo and Drogs, with Dundalk and Derry only ones lower than last season. The Galway and Waterford combined of 6000 is greater than the 4400 combined of Cork and Ucd.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
While Drog just about over 2000, the other are comforatbaly above that, and with 4 clubs now above a 4k average.
First division not as rosy. Only Harps and Treaty grown from last year. That average of 992 likely to fall further so wont hit figures of the 23 or 22.
I wouldn't think so. Pat's and Bohs would sellout regularly. Bohs have been severely hampered by capacity restrictions with more or less every game being a "home" sellout. Pat's fans would know how regularly they sell out but I think it's regular. Shels would've sold out a good bit too and have recently increased capacity with works on an existing structure.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Derry have obviously been hampered by capacity restrictions and I'd leave it up to others to say whether the same is true at other regional clubs as I'm not sure. Tallaght has had a good few sellouts but in general I doubt they'd feel hampered by capacity.
Drogheda and Derry have a bit of capacity issues, but both have had majority of their attendances under their current capacities.
Bohs are the only side who seem to be selling out capacity most weeks.
735 at Treaty United v Longford.