Goal for Idah (I think my other thread should be taken out the back and shot :) )
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Goal for Idah (I think my other thread should be taken out the back and shot :) )
This Wagner uprising against his former employer is going better than another one I could mention...
(Too soon? :p)
Assist and really nice finish for his goal. Two goals and an assist in 4 sub appearances this year. Great start for him. Hopefully Sargent out for a while. Still hope
In 89 minutes of play, Idah's already matched his scoring record from 1125 minutes last season - our pecking order up front is really changeable - Connolly was being written off but now after 5 goals in nine appearances for Hull, he's back on the radar. Idah's form looked like it might be putting his place in the international set-up at risk, in the short-term anyway - now it's looking like this could be the break-out season we've been waiting three and a half years for (early doors, I know). Sinclair Armstrong has put himself into the mix now that he's starting at QPR. Meanwhile, Troy Parrott's move surely calls his place into question (again short-term). So what does this mean for the upcoming fixtures - Idah holds his place in the pecking order over Keane? Connolly in and Parrott out? Armstrong brought in as a barnstorming impact sub?
Armstrong apparently isn't in contention. I don't think the squad announcement will be particularly eventful in terms of the forward positions (or at all). From the last squad Johnston and Obafemi are out injured, so Ogbene and Keane will probably come back in. Robinson probably hasn't played enough football but might be an option also.
I'd like to see Parrott relocated to the Under 21s and Connolly brought in as an option off the bench, but it won't happen. But then I'd like to see a lot of things done differently that won't be under the current management. Hopefully we just need to suffer it for another few games and then maybe we can try something different. Sometimes different can be worse but that seems unlikely in this case.
Dropped last night after a couple of starts in a row. But came on before the hour when Barnes went off with potential ligament injury.
Norwich have already lost Sergent for a couple of months (maybe till the end of the year) and signed Hwang from Nottingham Forest to fill out the squad. Now they may have to do without Barnes for an extended period too. Could give Idah an extended run in the team (provided he doesn't get injured himself of course), but he's not been great since the couple of early goals (which admittedly is just four games ago). The Pinkun Norwich site said he "again looked good when facing goal but struggled with his hold-up play and suffered with his loose control", which reads slightly unusual as I suppose we'd be more used to seeing him being ok at holding the ball up but fairly weak when facing goal.
Ah I think his hold up play is often poor tbh
Fair enough. I think it's about the only thing he has shown in his time in green, away to Portugal and home to France in particular.
It actually appears to be the better part of his game for Ireland alright !Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I thought Idah's best game for Ireland was probably the away game against Portugal, when he really ruffled the feathers of Ruben Dias and Pepe. Since then, he hasn't really kicked on. Injuries and lack of confidence have hindered him.
One of the criticisms levelled at him from a Norwich fan on the BBC phone-in post-match was that he seemed to be out of sync with the rest of the team, that you could give him another ball and he'd play his own game.
If it turns out Barnes is injured and out for a while, he really needs to step up to the mark and seize the chance.
His endless cycles of form are getting tiresome. Not sure what the issue is but one would think the international window was good for confidence so it can't be that. Form and injuries are significantly impacting him and his club gametime and output.
Hes only 22. Young players always have ups and downs in form, especially when they are always getting injured. A successful season for Idah this year is just to play the full thing without having to miss 2 or 3 months with injury, that would be a decent starting point for him to kick on. Troy Parrott similarly, at 21 lets see if he can be injury free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Im not saying Parrott or Idah can be world class, but if you look at Callum Wilson or Ollie Watkins as examples of players who really kicked on in their mid to late 20s I still think the talent is there for Idah and Parrott to become very decent Premiership players.
Even if we look closer to home, most of us had written off Aaron Connolly. Hes starting to show that maybe we dismissed him too soon. Its a long season yet but he looks excellent so far and I wouldnt be surprised to see him get 20 goals this season, a year ago I thought he'd be closer to being back at Galway United by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I think the frustration stems from how prolific he was at underage and then he broke through with that FA Cup hat-trick before his nineteenth birthday and we felt almost as excited about him as we do about Ferguson now. but that was three and three quarter years ago and he hasn't become the star we hoped he would be by now. But, as Razor said, he's still only 22 - when you consider the ages that some of our main strikers over the last 35 years established themselves as top flight strikers, then you realize that he definitely still has time - Aldridge: 27; Cascarino: 26; Walters: 27; Doyle: 23; Niall Quinn broke though at Arsenal aged 20, but then spent 3 years as a fringe player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Right now Idah's career path actually most resembles Shane Long's: early breakthrough followed by a couple of PL seasons as a secondary striker - given more time after relegation but still took a couple of seasons to start to fulfil his potential
Ah yeah, I agree with you overall here, specifically with regards to Idah. A bit of impatience on my part really. In terms of strikers and the timing of their development, you only need to look closer to home for Idah at Ashley Barnes. Barely got to double digits in his travails up and down the football pyramid until he was 30 in the Premiership for Burnley.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Whatever about Parrott, Idah is definitely the sort of striker that comes good later. See also Didier Drogba.
The cycle is just tiresome is all. But natural. Wish he could sustain the spurts for longer.
Some of those comparisons are a bit unfair though given Idah hasn't even established himself as a striker at any senior level yet. Doyle at Idah's age was half-way through 19 goals for Reading in the Championship, Quinn had just moved to Man City after 20 goals at one of the top clubs in England and he hit the ground running at City, Cascarino had about 50 goals (in the third tier) and Aldridge - who always was an anomaly anyway - had played in a European quarter final and was moving up the leagues. Even Shane Long had roughly twice as many goals from twice as many games including twice as many starts by this stage. Walters is about the only reasonable comparison (a League Two player)Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
I think the bigger concerns are that (a) he still doesn't seem to have a killer instinct in front of goal, as typified by the chance in the opening minute of the France game and (b) successive Norwich managers (Farke, Smith, Wagner) can't really find a role for him apart from as a utility player/impact sub.
Concerns? :-)
Maybe on a personal level. He's had knee problems and has had a long time out of the game - not exactly good that a young player is having these injury issues and a worry for the length of his future career. But I think he has done fine for us to date, even if performances have been inconsistent and a bit up and down. Nevertheless 18 senior caps at 22 is quite a good return. And he's on a goal scoring streak for us atm; 2 goals in 3 games.
I can hear the screams of the stats being tortured from here ifk. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Yes, he has 18 caps, but that's mainly because we're desperate for options up front. Can you name a less effective player to have gotten so many caps for us?
And that hot goal streak is a penalty, and a late goal against a tired part-time Gibraltar side. It's not exactly stellar stuff.
And yes, he's had injuries (but he's had a clear run this year and not been able to nail down a starting spot), and yes, he's two-third of the way to his record league goals tally in a season. So maybe he's improving. Or maybe at some stage we'll have to face the possibility that he's not all that good.
He keeps a clean sheet in every game he plays as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Your definition of effective is different than mine. I think he is an effective striker, but a prolific goalscorer he'll never be. But to entertain your thought - Simon Cox? Andy Keogh? Daryl Murphy?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
They are goals, and goals in competitive games.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
He has 18 caps at 22 years old. Obviously good enough to play for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Decent nominations for sure. I'd have any of them ahead of Idah though. Wouldn't see them as being as ineffective as Idah was against Greece and Luxembourg (his two most recent starts before this month)Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Talk about damning with faint praise. When Armstrong and Afolabi are next in line, you can see it doesn't take much to get a game for us up front.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Anyway, it appears Barnes may be out for two months, and with Sargent out too, that should give Idah another go at staking a claim for a starter spot. His manager has come out with the obligatory praise of course. But he needs to make hay here though I think.
You'd have Andy Keogh over Idah?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Ah yeah, ignore the fact that the Championship has improved immeasurably since Keogh got double digits at that level and ignore Idah getting 2 goals in 18 whilst Keogh got the same in 30 and then throw in a bit of flippant throwaway commentary and sure why wouldn't you prefer Andy Keogh over Adam Idah?.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Adam Idah is a good player who has been impacted by injuries - and he will get better. He is not the type of player who will score a hatful of goals - but he is an important asset for Ireland and any club he plays for. At the moment he is good with his back to the goal, receiving the ball and they laying it off for midfield runners - he does need to develop more of a killer instinct.
He actually reminds me of Frank Stapleton - able to hold the ball up and bring others into the play. Not as strong as Stapleton or as good in the air - but with more pace. He may never be as good as Stapleton - but he needs a couple of good years without injury before we will really see what he is capable of.
Now - there will be competition for places with Ferguson, possibly Armstrong, possibly Connolly, maybe Parrott will come good, Cannon if he finally opts for Ireland, Obafemi, Fraser, O'Neill, TKD, Emakhu, Springett, O'Mahony - but Idah does what many of the others are not able to and he has a role. I think in 3/4 years, if he gets a run without injuries, Idah will be playing consistently in the PL (not for one of the top teams - but he could certainly do a job for a team in the bottom half who are always looking over their shoulder at relegation).
The Championship improving doesn't factor into it. Otherwise you could argue Idah is better than GilesQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
My question was "Can you name a less effective player to have gotten so many caps for us?" There may yet be a player in Idah and he's now got a great chance to show it. But he's rarely been anything other than ineffective for Ireland to date unfortunately. It's a long time since that hattrick in the Cup but he still has a lot of the same weaknesses unfortunately
Well - like your comment about the Championship - the number of caps is a bit of a distortion - there are far more international games these days than there were 15/20 years ago - never mind 30/40 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Anyway I'll give it a go (and I might take a bit of poetic license with the number of caps).
Harry Arter - 19 caps
James Collins - 14 caps
Gary Doherty - 34 caps
Paul Green - 20 caps
Eamon Gregg - 9 caps
Ashley Grimes - 18 caps
Colin Healy - 13 caps
Scott Hogan - 12 caps
Daryl Horgan - 17 caps
Alan Judge - 9 caps
Andy bloody Keogh - 30 caps (why?)
Alan Lee - 10 caps
Kevin Long - 17 caps
Alan Maybury - 10 caps
Jayson Molumby - 20 caps
Daryl Murphy - 31 caps
Alan O'Brien - 5 caps
Darren O'Dea - 20 caps
Darren Potter - 5 caps
Conor Sammon - 9 caps
Sean St. Ledger - 37 caps
Anthony Stokes - 9 caps
Now I am sure you can produce some stats to prove me wrong - but I would take Adam Idah over any of the above - and some others who got more caps who went through significant periods where they were bare noticeable on the pitch (e.g. James McCarthy).
Why are you including players who are not strikers in the comparison?
Red herring. You said you'd Andy Keogh over Adam Idah. Do you stand by it?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I thought he was effective against the Netherlands and France which were the last two games.
The poster has literally quoted exactly what Stu said and the version of the question he posed. I don't see any issues with what the poster has done.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Maybe it could have been assumed Stu was inferring strikers but I don't see the issue with this poster's interpretation.
Not a red herring at all. In absolute terms he's probably a better player than Johnny Giles because football has moved on since the 60s. Does that mean he's a more effective player for us? Course not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
But yes, I'd have Keogh over Idah. Idah wouldn't have been close to the squad ten years ago.
He had feck all to do in Paris - not his fault but hard to say he was effective. He wasn't great v Holland tbh. He had fewer touches (pro-rata) than any other player on the pitch bar two late subs who didn't get a touch at all. He wasted that early chance which showed a real lack of killer instinct. He barely touched the ball the last half hour. That's hardly what I'd call "effective". But it was probably still an improvement on his last two starts when he was rightly hauled off early for being completely ineffective.
I wasn't limiting things to forwards btw so JRG is right to spread the net to other positions. I did reference caps though - specifically as many as Idah has gotten - and that invalidates half his nominees. Otherwise we'd reference Paul Butler and Joey Lapira and close the thread.
St Ledger, Molumby and Doherty are daft nominations though. Doherty was our leading scorer in a campaign (04?) FFS, and with no penalties or goals against tired part-timers either. Sledge was a solid defender in a side that got to the Euros (and he scored there too). Molumby isn't the player we thought he might be at one stage but he's still more effective than Idah in the current setup
(Watch now as I jinx him into a hattrick this afternoon!)
stu said 'less effective player' - not 'less effective striker' - although there are a fair few strikers in the listQuote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Ten years ago, we lost 1-0 away to Austria. We used Conor Salmon in that game. His effectiveness in that game was summed up as followsQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Quote:
Conor Sammon: 5
Barely noticeable after coming on as a late replacement for Shane Long.
Ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Quote:
Adam Idah - 8
Hesitated after being gifted a glorious opportunity by the Dutch goalkeeper early on, but took the chance to make up for it from the penalty spot soon after.
Idah caused real problems for the Dutch defence with his running off the ball, although the referee did him no favours by giving some very soft decisions to the visitors. Following on from a decent showing in Paris, this was a quality performance against a top class Dutch back three.
Arguably his best performance in an Ireland shirt. https://www.balls.ie/football/irelan...ds-loss-569979
Quote:
Adam Idah 7 - Scored the early penalty and was a real handful for Van Dijk. Dropped deep to help out in a good performance. https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soc...layer-30908050
Quote:
Adam Idah 7
Nerves of steel to convert his early penalty for his second senior goal and worked tirelessly. Great strength to hold off Van Dijk on several occasions but had less luck in the air.
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...611885723.html
Quote:
Adam Idah: Caused Virgil van Dijk a serious headache in the first half with his pace and physicality in the first half, and took his penalty very well, but his influence lessened as Ireland wilted after the break. 7
Decent chance for him just now, ball crossed from the left, finds him unmarked in the middle but on the stretch, gets a toe to it but can’t direct it and the keeper parries away to safety. First thing of note from him in this game. Might have been his first touch in this half.
Lovely goal for Idah!
Nice strike from just inside the right hand side of the box to the far corner. Very nice, very composed.
Delighted for him.
Goal number two for him. Penalty. Carbon copy of his penalty against the Dutch.
!Take that Pineapple! He says (probably)
What can I say - I called the jinx! He's welcome :)
Anonymous up till then as you say, and keeper will be disappointed with the opener. But well done; certainly what he needs to do while the others are out injured.
The problem for Idah now is that Norwich look a poor team - an a team that is getting worse. I'm surprised because they haven't lost a huge number of players and Wagner should be a decent manager. I suspect stuff about Smith selling the club might be having an impact all around.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
No goals or assists in seven games now for Idah. Dropped to the bench for today; Hwang started instead and scored, but Norwich still lost 3-1.
Their form has collapsed since Sargeant got injured after four games (and Barnes followed three games later). 13 goals and 10 points from the first four games; 12 goals and 7 points from the next ten games. Obviously that's not all on Idah, but safe to say he hasn't made a great case for him to keep his place when Sergeant/Barnes come back unfortunately. And Wagner the manager has to be under a bit of pressure too; Norwich finished last year badly too (one win in ten), and he's only been there since Jan.
Think their problems are actually more at the back. Duffy has been poor by all accounts. Think he's done at an anyway decent level unfortunately (Duffy, not Idah - though I have limited expectations for Idah too).
Worst defence in the league, so certainly hard to argue against that point. Duffy - from browsing the Norwich forum - I think seems to do ok and then go missing at a crucial time about once a game (see this thread for example).
Which ultimately is one way of looking poor at that level.
Damning enough to not return in seven games after getting the run I was hoping he would. He has time when the sporadic goals and good performances being to yield less hope he really will lose relevance. I have hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
He has the makings of a decent player with potential for a good output. But it’s a question of FIT. Truth is he doesn’t merit a tactical team change to suit his strength alone.
He’d benefit from a move. Being targeted by a manager with a specific style in mind for the team and a role in that team for a player of his attributes. Then slotting in to do that job.
Rather than being inherited by and trying to adapt to successive managers.