Am I right in saying that he’s literally never played in midfield in his life?
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Am I right in saying that he’s literally never played in midfield in his life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
To be fair, he did as a yoof - https://www.the42.ie/nathan-collins-6-5791345-Jun2022/
Played right wing back for Stoke.....wonder would his mistakes be less punishing there?
There is a bit of ball in the lad without a doubt.
Could be a revelation in the middle of the park.
confirmation biasQuote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
noun
noun: confirmation bias
the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories.
I was at the game. Early on my mate (no dog in the fight) thought NC was a bit off it - maybe carrying an injury? Whatever, it's pure gash to say he was the only one who was "trying to defend etc"
My own thought is that it was 4 things (or some combination):
1. BFC missing Pinnock for (I think) the first time this season. He has been immense in the heart of the BFC defence to date, whether in a 3 or a 4. My POTY;
2. NC may be lacking confidence - he was ok until he and Mee screwed up for the 3rd goal, hence his own screw-up for the 4th;
3. Frank's tactics. In previous games vs L'pool, BFC have generally defended deep and hit them on the break. This time, possibly because they're currently missing their 3 quickest players, Henry, Mbuemo and Shade and with a reshaped defence, they tried instead to apply a high press. This worked brilliantly for the first 30 mins, until L'pool settled. After which, it was L'pool who were hitting BFC on the breakl, not v.v.
4. The quality of the L'pool attack.
If it is confidence, then there's no better coach than Frank to resolve it. For example, when Jenssen came iinto the team after Eriksen, he struggled, but over the next season he came into his own, since Frank kept faith in him. Or even Flekken (gk), signed this season to replace Raya. As recently as 3 weeks ago, Bees fans on social media were all for binning him. Then he had a blinder against Man City, and by yesterday, when he v.good vs L'pool, the fans had given him his own song!
Conclusion? NC is struggling for form and consistency at the moment - hardly surprising for a new guy in a constantly changing team which is losing a lot of games just now. Of course he'll have to shape up soon, since there is no sentiment in the PL and BFC are constantly assessing their players, incl looking towards finding upgrades to replace them. But with NC there is definitely a player in there and at 22, sooner or later he's likely to appear.
P.S. He's not a midfielder and never will be (imo).
Admittedly I was excited by his move to Brentford for the money spent – suggesting they saw the potential and that he was undervalued at even that high sum. But not sure his difficulties are an issue of confidence, rather he is prone to defensive mishaps and the move to Brentford has yet to iron this out of his game. Despite his physical attributes, there is a certain softness and weakness in his defending that has followed him in his career to date. As much as Kenny is made out to be inept on the forum, he did lose patience with Collins and dropped him for this. Maybe it down to his age, he is still young and learning the game, but think we should be seeing a better “defender” at this stage of his career. Imagine this is where the calls to move him into midfield come from, mistakes are less fatal if made in midfield? But agree 100%, he is not a midfielder.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
So the consensus is he won't be our Declan Rice.
Better to be, Our Caviar.
Commenting during his Press Conference today on Brentford's recent defensive difficulties etc, Thomas Frank noted that:
"I think the last 24 games I have changed my back three or four, or five with the goalkeeper, a lot of times. 19 times we played a different set-up at the back which doesn't help."
It is hardly unexpected that a new, young and inexperienced player like Collins would struggle more in such a situation than eg Mee or Pinnock.
ah he'd get nowhere near England team man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
On that metric of course, Declan Rice would be our Declan Rice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
Hes dropped for the City game today
Yes, one of three players who started vs L'pool who have now been dropped to the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Frank has stuck with a back 3, with NC replaced by 33 y.o. Xanka (aka Jorgensson), an experienced squad player who is usually on the bench but v.rarely starts. He's a big strong lad, mind, so maybe Frank is hoping he won't be too easily bullied by Haaland?
On the bench again tonight, as Bees start with a 3-5-2 away to WHU.
Came off the bench after 61 mins with BFC already 2-1 down - game finished 4-2 to WHU. According to the radio commentary, while BFC's attacking play was pretty good, their defending was shambolic throughout - which has been the story of much of their season recently. They're seriously missing Pinnock (CB who has been excellent this season and last), Rico Henry (outstanding LB, but out for the season) and Raya (now Arsenal's 1st choice gk), while time may finally be catching up with CB Ben Mee this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
In the circumstances it looks to have been a huge ask for a young, relatively inexperienced CB like NC to come in and steady the ship. But however it works out for him between now and the end of the season, if it doesn't ruin him*, he should be better for the experience over time.
* - Shouldn't think it will, since BFC are v.good at bringing on young players.
Who should have picked up Bowen for goals 2 and 3? They are basically identical, and scored either side of half time - i.e. not addressed at the break. Sure, Collins has made individual errors to warrant a rest from the starting line-up but appears Brentford's defensive organisation is a deeper concern than its individual makeup. But with Luton losing momentum, Brentford should be relatively safe from relegation now - giving leeway to bring Collins back into the team.
I think its fair to say we all expected more from Collins at this stage. When he broke through 1st I thought a move to a top club would have been on the cards by now but for whatever reason he hasnt really improved in the last years or 2. But at this stage hes starting to remind me of Richard Dunnes early career. Dunne was very error prone and it was only when he got into his mid and late 20s that he improved to the point we all loved him. Collins has played a lot of top flight football for a 22 year old center back, more than most would expect, so you'd have to hope that will stand to him eventually.
Four clubs in the last four seasons doesn't help, so hopefully Brentford is a longer stay for him to aid his progress and reach his potential. He has made individual mistakes for Brentford but Brentford do have collective organisational issues which maybe enhance/ make more visible these mistakes? But using the Dunne comparison, I think Collins is a better footballer than Dunne, but Dunne is the better defender (if you know what I mean). Needs to be clued in more, use his strength, and be more aggressive to get to Dunne's level. For example, hard to see Dunne being bullied by Haaland to the same extent as Collins was - (which led to him losing his place in the Wolves team).Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Yeah I wouldnt really compare him to Dunne as a player, I was just using Dunne for comparison as a defender who absolutely improved with ageQuote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Ben Mee has now been ruled out for the rest of the season (injury). Increases NC's chances of getting back in the team.
Sounds like he went OK today. He is starting out of necessity more than anything at the moment with all the defensive injuries, in truth. But maybe he can play himself back into form. I think maybe he has believed the hype a bit too much in the last couple of years, maybe tries to do too much with the ball but hasn't focused enough on the nuts and bolts of defending - marking, concentration etc. I'm still hopeful he'll come good.
Collins normally plays on the right of a back three at Brentford - today he was playing on the left, replacing Mee - not his natural position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Wasn't at the game myself, but speaking to my mate who was, plus looking at the fans' forums, I'm afraid he wasn't "OK". Now tbf, he probably wasn't any worse than the two other CB's, plus he was out of position on the left, as JRG says.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Either way, even while their attacking play is very good, and the gk has found some form, BFC's defence is leaking goals alarmingly. Hardly surprising when their first choice back five from last season are all missing. While the general concensus on NC is that his confidence is shot, but there is literally no-one else to take his place and allow him a period out of the spotlight to get his confidence back.
Still, for his sake it must be hoped that "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger".
That's what makes on professional at one's job. It'd the hard that makes you hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
That Brentford defence seems positional unsure and clueless as to who is supposed to be picking up who. The second Chelsea goal the example. Brentford outnumbered Chelsea in the box but two Chelsea players had free runs at the back post to attack the ball. Looks like Collins is at fault for the goal but the back three are not in sync.
He was waving an imaginary card today against Arsenal when Havertz went down very easily.
Embarrassing.
Did he not get a Valentines day card ? !Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
Part of a defence that conceded three today and had a right good row with Ivan Toney on the pitch at the end of the game.
Big turnaround in the space of a month for Collins, has been one of Brentford's best players recently and seems to now be winning over their supporters. Hopefully he can continue the better form into next season.
Him, O'Shea and Omobamidele have all been good in the Premier League recently, albeit for three of the less fashionable teams. Stick Kelleher behind them and get Jake O'Brien involved and that should be a really solid base to work from for the next few years.
Was at BFC v Fulham on Saturday (also v Sheff U last month, won 2-0) and NC was very good in both (even if hardly tested by Sheff U).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
He's clearly over the 'blip' he had earlier in the season and should be looking forward to next season with confidence. The only thing I'd add is that it's important that he has Ethan Pinnock fit and available beside him next season, since Pinnock, 31 later this month, is an absolute rock - imo one of the best 5 or 6 CB's in the entire PL, criminally underrated. Collins can learn from him.
Longish interview/profile on the Brentford website:
https://www.brentfordfc.com/en/news/...ford-interview
Played a big part in Brentfords second goal. Better connection on the shot and might have scored himself.
I thought Collins played well yesterday. Looked good on the ball, and seemed to handle Eze well, blocking a few of shots from the Palace ace. Would love to see him paired with O'Shea but Pinnock may stand in his way. Perhaps a back three
He's currently leading in the MOTM vote on the main Bees' fans forum. I was at the game and while I thought he was certainly very good, he probably wouldn't have been my choice but hey, what do I know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummerboy2
As for O'Shea replacing Pinnock, that may be BFC's long term plan, but from the way Pinnock played yesterday, he has to be the first name on the team (any position) - an absolute rock. O'Shea may get a place alongside Pinnock and Collins in a back three, but he'll have to oust Ajer (did ok yesterday) and Mee (made a brief comeback as sub) first. Imo if O'Shea signs (still not absol certain), it will be for the medium-long term, not the here-and-now.
Did they play a back 4 yesterday with ajer as a left full?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Yes, Ajer was LB.
Watched the game myself. Thought Collins was ok, Brentford as a whole were defensively shaky. From an Ireland perspective, O'Shea going to Brentford would not be ideal as I'd be confident he'll push Collins out of the Brentford team. Collins arguably has a higher bar in terms of potential, but O'Shea is a consistent and reliable performer.
(Pinnock was a bit sluggish yesterday imo.)
No, back three with Collins on right, Pinnock in centre and Ajer on left. This despite Ajer being right footed and Pinnock being left footed - Frank clearly wants to build the defence round Pinnock. As it happens, Ajer, who's 6'5" was caught out in the air at the back post for the Palace goal, which deflected in off Pinnock. And Pinnock gave him a right mouthfull for it, I can tell you.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Meanwhile Roerslev played RWB and the left footed Janelt, normally a midfielder, was LWB, to complete the 3-5-2.
That's one of the things about BFC. Usually lower half teams only have one "house-style", but BFC vary their set-up and tactics depending on the opposition. Against top teams, esp those which press high, they defend deep and try to hit them on the counter. But against teams like Palace, they play out from the back. This in turn dictates whether they play four at the back, or three.
Has been excellent so far in the first 60 mins. Stopped a sure goal from Jota and got a great block on a Salah shot. Two important headers defending corners.
Took an elbow in.the face for which Jota could easily have seen red. And came closest to scoring for Brentford, Alisson made a very good save from a Collins header
They’re losing but I think Collins is having another good game in the circumstances. He’s very solid on that right side of the three and carries and passes the ball so well. Seems to be staying mentally switched on too which is a fault I’d have seen in him before. Drew a fantastic save from Allison from a corner and blocked a goal bound shot a minute later at the other end.
Came here to post something very similar. Went to edit the post to say “you got there before me ES” - and it deleted the whole post… grrr…
He’s been great overall and doing really well in the circumstances. Carries and passes the ball so well from that right sided position in the back three and stays mentally switched on which is a fault I’d have called out from him in previous seasons. Great to see the development. The save from Allison was fantastic and the block at the other end came about a minute later. Doing really well.
Was watching the game on American TV. Commentators John Champion and Stephen Warnock (former Liverpool full-back). Warnock could not say enough good things about Collins, gushing over him at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu