we are now quoting the sun??!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MeathDrog
I thought we were well set up in the first half and everyone seemed to know their job. possibly the best half from an o'neill team
we are now quoting the sun??!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MeathDrog
I thought we were well set up in the first half and everyone seemed to know their job. possibly the best half from an o'neill team
its not as if we have a whole crop of good u21s waiting in the wings to be given a chance. we just are not producing enough good players to have the potential to come through. not sure how throwing in a load of untried and probably not good enough players for a campaign or two will make things better.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
not overly concerned at our 4th seeding to be honest. Greece were no. 1 seeds for this campaign and have been beaten twice by the faroes
the Irish sports fan wants to follow success or the flavour of the month. couldn't see them buying into a couple of campaigns even worse than this one (however still with the potential to be rescued possibly)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I know it's not quite English Premier League stars, but the League of Ireland under-19 league running for the past number of years is really starting to pay dividends for a number of clubs. There's a good list of young players within both divisions really starting to make an impact here and signs is on that there's currently four or five of them playing international level and I'd guess another four or five on the cusp of it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
A lot of clubs going the right direction with coaching and underage structures and setting up their own academies.
It's time we stopped looking at players breaking through in England and concentrated on giving players breaking through here the best start and best support in their senior careers.
DI look at Uefa here ->http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/qualifi...954/index.html
Shots on target was 6 , to Scotlands 3. Total attempts 13 to 8. That's not a huge difference by any standards.
The corners one is the only one that reads well really relative to us supposedly being that good and completely stifling Scotland. But corners are not shots on goal, or clear cut chances per se!
And i dont agree with writing off campaigns to feed players through, that's a load of visionary whally that's totally unfounded with no substance. We have to make do with what we have, we don't have much and it looks like even less coming through, but as said before many countries are making good with what they have. Bar staunton's campaigns(and looking like this one) we have always been there and thereabouts heading into the last couple of games, we should always be looking to be there or thereabouts coming into the last game. We don't need all this talk of a complete overhaul that will probably just create the exact same outcome anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
In fairness, I didn't mention feeding players through (and I don't think Malone was talking about that either).Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
What's being talked about is giving the players we have more breathing space to play a natural game, to not feel like they're under pressure not to lose every game and reverting to the simplest and most rigid structures.
It's very much about getting the best out of players we have, which is why I cited the likes of Coleman and McCarthy underperforming. These guys are good players but they are not showing it for us.
Of course, I'd ideally love to combine us being competitive and playing a bolder, braver brand of football. But it doesn't appear to me it'll be that simple.
Fair enough, but there were a couple of others suggesting that. I think that just requires a different manager with a different philosophy, people scoffed at Strachan and the suggestions made that he looked good for Scotland at the start of the campaign, and I don't want to keep harping on about this one, but I'd love a manager with that attitude in charge of us. And as bad as both Scotland and Ireland are, they are in the driving seat and he has gotten enough out of them. We haven't.
It's funny I had in my head that we had played some nice football under staunton, with this freedom that you speak of at home, getting wins against Wales and Slovakia at home, but a mate told me on Friday that wasn't the case at all, maybe i was slightly blinded by the wins...either way we did play with more freedom like you speak but we got spanked, there is a balance and I think a certain manager with a good philosophy and positive mentality would change all that, without needing any of these suggestions of saying it takes two campaigns/write-offs etc.
FAI arent going to want a couple of campaigns in the wilderness with massive debts to service and a half empty stadium.
Liam Brady's assessment. Team crying out for an assertive CM, too many little mistakes, MON doesn't rate Long, good first half even if it was direct and not how Brady likes to play, Murphy did well, wrong to take Wes off, not fair to compare Martin to Michael O'Neill as NI has much easier group...
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/c...pe-336999.html
Giles in The Indo says that schoolboy clubs are doing a lot of stuff right, especially in regard to providing a safe environment for kids to play. Says they do so much by themselves it's fair that they don't want FAI interference so therefore it's imperative that everything be joined up at club level - set up a club association and channel as much support as possible from FIFA, UEFA and the State (fat chance...). Giles thinks we still have a chance. He was happy with parts of the game, first half especially, and thinks results later in the group are still possible.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-31303426.html
My memory is that the Wales game was terrible and we were pretty good in the Slovakia game. Could be wrong though.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
The home one, with Stephen Ireland and Keane combining well, i thought we were good. But maybe the two goals overshadowed that. Still when did we score two goals against half decent opposition when not losing(Russia losing, I don't include Armenia) in Dublin?
In Wales at the time, amazing the way the bar emptied out at half time, it was that bad:(Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Not sure that Wales side could be considered half decent. Slovakia weren't exactly the force they have become since either (i.e. qualifying for tournaments) but I think we did play well that night. Both games finished 1-0 though, didn't they?
Just accept that you're wrong and he's right, as always. sure didn't he text his mates!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I don't know much about schoolboys clubs so can't say how accurate or not that is. But it stinks of a swipe at Sadlier for taking 'his' seat on The Panel. Sadlier made a fair bit of commentary about the schoolboys clubs post match, about how it's all about winning and not about getting the basic skills in place and enjoying the game. I think Dunphy was also making the same comments. He was saying that the big lad will always get picked over the small technical lad nowadays, and that means no more players like Wes coming throughQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Wales game was dire. Flat and unimaginative salvaged by a good Stephen Ireland goal. Dunne had a brain fart and gave the ball away for a one-on-one which Wales missed. Poor Welsh side that day / era.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Slovakia was good, Stan's best competitive performance probably.
Ya they did. I thought we scored 2 against Wales...
Im not sure Giles is taking a swipe (he's calling it as he sees it!), rather he is talking from the perspective of a guy with links to one of the better clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by EAFC_rdfl
It seems to be a case of the fallacy of composition: if everyone does whats good for himself, the greater good is diminished. The clubs are behaving rationally to suit themselves but the result is to the detriment of the greater ambitions. I am a little suspicious of the labelling of clubs as primitive win-at-all-costs merchants though. I thought that things are moving on? Although the DDSL giving lots of money to the FAI to build a pitch makes me wonder if it's a bit like our payment from FIFA: take the money and leave us alone will ya?
We did in Cardiff, then McShane intervened in injury time! It was 1-0 in Croker I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I missed the game as I was attending a function in England and sat down and watched the game (apologies if all these matters have been covered all ready) yesterday afternoon in the comfort of my living room. I am sure all the nuances and tactics of the game have been debated ad nauseum so I'll just refer to a few matters which came to my attention:
(a) Don't feel guilty by the offside goal (very little in it as the feet were level) as Hoolahan (I think) at the far post was having his shirt pulled/tugged as he made a dart for the near post in the same incident. Clear penalty.
(b) WTF was the stadium PA doing playing a celebratory song when Scotland scored? Is it a FIFA rule or something if the home side does it, the away side must get the same. Disgrace if it's not mandatory/
(c) Very little coming through on audio of huge support from Irish fans other than after the goal. Was this correct?
(d) We were slightly better in the first half and also in the second. Not a huge amount in it but if Murphy had taken that chance almost immediately after the Scots got their fluke, different game - different result.
(e) Maloney touched the ball from open play about 4 times, including his shot which was going well wide.
(f) Every management team deserves at least two campaigns. In the UK they go ballistic when a manager is sacked after 6 games in the EPL. The threshold is of course smaller for international football due to the far fewer games but I wouldn't write MON's obituary as yet. I was hoping that at last we would start winning "must win" games at home but it's not to be (Poland and Scotland) and we have even lost a "must not lose" game (Scotland away) so we may have even gone back a step but sometimes you have to go in to reverse to go forward. Let's see how we go in the next 4 games and then the next campaign even if this one ends with a whimper.
(g) There is not time to experiment in int football in competitive games or write off campaigns where you still have a chance. If you're lucky, in your life time, you will have 15 Euros and 15 World Cups you'll remember or be aware of. Each campaign has to be treated as if it's the one and only we'll ever be in as they're like hens' teeth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Nice to see some sanity restored to the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
I wouldn't write off campaigns either but at the same time MON has been slow to signal to the "next in lines" that they might have something to play for. Tets was bemoaning the lack of willingness to shoot. Conor Hourihane? There was a spell early last season where he deserved a call up to the initial, larger, squads. Unless I'm mistaken he wasn't. I think sometimes being on the international radar can help a player with his club ambitions.
Anyway, 12 months from now I'm expecting players like Hoban, Duffy and Egan to be pressing for a squad place, maybe more. Mick had Alan Kelly playing at a high level but still gave caps early in his tenure to Shay. If we're to call up 4 keepers why not Lawlor or Henderson rather than 4 quite seasoned keepers? It's been unimaginative.
Strange enough, considering reactions to this game, I am a good deal more positive about MON after the game, than before. Mostly I was pleased with the way MON impressed his idea of how we should play and how the players took that on board, with gusto. For the first time I could see a game plan that could work without the need for a midfield maestro and seeing as we have no maestros, bar a fading Wes, this type of thing matters.
And flexibility can be induced with introduction of McGeady and to a lesser extent McClean.
We deserved our goal regardless of margins, we were made work for it but we gifted Scotland one for free.
I concur with MON about the goal, Scotland waltzed unimpeded into our box with the ball from the half way line and the going nowhere shot took an awful deflection. There were 10 errors in our play before Shay comes under scrutiny. We were collectively shoddy. Perhaps the effects of the half-time toke?
Wilson was shoddy at times, a pity because he has ability. O'Shea was a decisive leader, everything we wanted him to be in 2002, when he had youth on his side. Coleman showed signs of some rust. The rest played to their limits on the day. MON deserved better for this game but the pressure was on to win because of our last 2 results.
Lawlor had an operation on his leg recently, so he was unavailable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I think you get the point though. It's not something O'Neill would do. Can't prove it, but there's enough circumstantial evidence.
People forget that we had NINE friendlies with MON before this campaign started. That's a lot of game time to throw in young players and develop a new style of play. We will have the bones of 12 months to prepare for the World cup qualifiers if we don't get to France. Ample time for a manager to try new players / formations and come to conclusions. Don't see why we need to sacrifice a whole campaign just to give players a chance.
13 to 8 is a significant enough difference, especially when we had double the number on target than they did. If you don't see it that way, fair enough. Corners are still indicative of territorial dominance/advantage and persistent pressure; we had 9 more corners than they had.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
You initially said, however: "i didnt think we had played that well, but i could sense those watching on TV thought we would have, and all my mates texted me saying exactly that. I texted and said we have created absolutely nothing, and we hadn't!"
I've demonstrated with stats you sought to rely on why it was unfair to say we created absolutely nothing in the first half (the goal being the most glaring and important example of something we created), but, really, what I was interested in knowing was why you thought the way we played in the first half would have impressed or encouraged only television viewers? Never mind the air of superiority about it, I just thought it an odd comment considering numerous respected professional writers/commentators/pundits (as I've pointed out) who were also at the game saw it differently to how you did. Either they lack your insight or you hadn't been paying attention.
For arguments sake, if MON were to step down after Ireland fail to qualify, who would be the front runner as next man up? Is there one?
Also Henderson ALLEGEDLY had a big falling out with Seamus McDonagh at Aston Villa, hence why he is never considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
DI we had 6 shots in total on target, 3 in the second half, 6 in total. On the tele you see a small piece of the pitch at a time, so if you see us with the ball all the time it gives the impression that we had loads of the ball over all over the place.
That wasn't really the case and that's what i was pointing out. We held the ball well, I never disagreed with that, in their half more than ours, as you suggest by the heatmap, but so what? They were happy like every other team apart from top sides that come to dublin to sit back and soak it up. We had way more fouls committed, you don't normally commit fouls when you have the ball. The important stats are shots on goal really, and we had 6 in the whole game. That is terrible. Scotland had 3 not a great deal less.
If we had created 20 shots to their 10 then fair enough but we didn't, we had 3 more, its very insignificant really.
Philippe Troussier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
The 'write-off' suggestion has to be taken in context - I not sure anyone's said we should just forget about a qualification campaign. I certainly haven't.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
What Malone was talking about was in the overall trajectory of Irish international football - an aging side, with not much apparent talent coming through, facing fourth seed status and a probable extremely tough draw in the next campaign.
His point was any long-term solution to the decline is hampered by a don't lose at all costs, qualify-or-bust attitude. I'm inclined to agree. It's not necessarily about playing Ian Lawlor or Ian Henderson or Noe Baba or whoever, or playing 352 or tika taka or any number of experiments. It's about giving the players we have the room to play football free of fear.
The team look scared. They've looked scared for a long time, certainly post Euros and realistically before them. It's a deep-seated, chronic problem that may require disposing of certain players and ways or thinking - or maybe not. But either way, it has to be looked at long-term rather than game-to-game.
When Mick McCarthy took over post-Jack, everyone knew the craic- that team was done. It was transition time and we faced an uphill task to make France 98. We made a play-off, but it was a poor campaign. Acceptable in context.
Next time out, we beat Croatia and Yugoslavia - still didn't make the finals, agonisingly, but those were some games to cheer about. Those guys didn't play with fear, they had intent, particularly at home. And next time we made it.
Those were painful years, but they had progress too and there was a feeling that the team had room to grow and improve. Granted, that team had some decent talent in it but it also maxismised its resources, something we desperately need to do.
Sometimes playing without fear comes from having nothing to lose. Scotland don't have anything to lose - things couldn't have got much worse for them and they're playing like a team who has seen darker days but knows it can play out of them. We need to find that confidence too.
I'd like to think a managerial change or picking Wes Hoolahan or going 433 would be enough to do that - but so far, it hasn't. I don't want a write off, I just want to feel like we're playing with freedom and building towards a better future rather than drawing/losing every game with no benefit.
This is something that has really annoyed me about MON.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Bringing back Shay Given was ridiculous. Shay is 39 and has no future in the team after this campaign. I'd understand if we had an injury crisis at the time but we didn't. Westwood has been a regular for Sheff Wed all season while Shay warmed the bench. Westwood should have been given his chance, a few more caps under his belt & establish himself as our No.1 for the next few campaigns. Randolph & Henderson were both playing regularly too.
The team/squad has been crying out for energetic youthful players, but MON goes for the old "reliables" Given, Murphy, Kelly, Green, Sammon etc.
When young lads who are the future of the team (good or bad) are ignored. Hoban, Doherty, Williams, Egan, Kavanagh, Kiernan etc.
From our U19 squad that reached the Euro semi finals in 2011 only Hendrick has been given a chance. Granted some of the others haven't set the world a light, but sometimes you just have to give youth a chance.
When you compare that U19 squad to the Spanish squad that beat us in the semi final, they've had 5 players go on to be capped at senior level.
The majority of that U19 team then went on the beat the Italian U21 team in 2012 which had Gabbiadini, Immobile, El Shaarawy, & Perin who've all been capped by Italy since.
Trap had no interest in youth, MON seems to be going down the same route.
We need someone in charge who's not afraid to use young players & drop the "names" in the squad, if we take a few beatings along the way so be it. Is it much different from what's been happening lately??
I couldn't agree more. We have players with midranking Premiership clubs who show no fear when they're up against Chelsea and Arsenal and the like. Put on the green, and it's a different story: confidence has leached out of the team, and it's not helped by successive managers griping that the players aren't good enough. I've said here a few times that the team needs a psychologist to sort this out, but maybe that low esteem is too ingrained in some players at this stage and a ruthless cull might be just as good.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Again, I couldn't agree more. If they're good enough, they're old enough. Young players may have the fearlessness we need to take risks, or try new things. And there's every chance that being a regular international with 10-20 caps by the time they're 23 might put them in the window for moving to better clubs. Would it be such a bad thing if we had a reputation as a nation that gave youth its fling? Messrs Bamford, Grealish and so on might want to weigh up the attractiveness of being seasoned internationals against waiting 3 or 4 years for an England call-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
I suppose the same old names would be trotted out - Mick, Dave O'Leary, Pat Fenlon as the token LoI suggestion; a slew of mediocre Championship level managers; maybe Troussier as IMS says. No more than playing unheralded youth, I'd rather see a manager from left of field - a complete unknown even - with an eye for a young player who can instil confidence and adopt 2 or 3 formations than some tired old has-been who's been around too long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
But we'll probably get whoever returns Ray Houghton's call first!
Didn't our U-21s get beaten by an England C team recently? Our squad is fine. IMO, if MON left Hoolahan on, took off Murphy for Long on 50mins and then put on Keane for Walters after another 10 minutes we'd have gotten our goal and none of this soul-searching, radical idea-making would be going on. International football is generally awful and the pick of managers seems to be awful too. Wes is an excellent little schemer but our team is just missing that world-class or almost world-class player to drag us up and get us the wins we need. Hopefully someone comes through.
Fair enough, but he did take Lawlor to the States last yearQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Our underage managers have basically been FAI yes men for years. Givens, King, Doolin. Our U21/U19 managers should be someone who has a realistic chance of becoming senior manager. Kerr is the exception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Of our recently retired players I'm not sure which ones have gone into coaching but these guys should be considered for our underage teams.
Wouldn't the U21 job have been perfect for Roy? But perhaps not for his ego. Even Stan was thrown in at the deep end.
And the Troussier comment was in jest ;)
if that side was similar to the side that played England a few days later, they were only just qualified for u21, IE at the start of their 2 year cycle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yard of Pace
Roy Keane, Mick McCarthy and Owen Coyle are most likely according to Paddypower. I cant see any of them getting it or going for it, maybe Coyle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Ray said it was Roy Hodgson way back in 2007. Everything almost signed and sealed but Fulham stepped in late in the day and offered him a real job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
AFAIR, Roy was thought of very well here at that time. I wouldn't poke fun at Ray's first choice.
Something similar was put to the RTE panel on Saturday evening. Brady didn't like the question and dismissed it, but Dunphy suggested Neil Lennon. Not a bad shout I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87