Our 'passing' was generally shocking. Embarrassingly poor.
Our 'passing' was generally shocking. Embarrassingly poor.
Keane against Holland in 2001 has to be up there in our best ever goals. Or McAteer in the same game. Don't think we've ever scored better team goals.
Or Holland's goal in Lisbon the following month? A cracker out of the blue in a game we should have been out of sight in.
The first against Holland in Amsterdam in 2000 is still my favourite... loads of passes in the build-up, including a double one-two between Carr and McAteer, complete with a backheel from Carr... watch from 30 seconds in here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9kctnluEzU
Second one is brilliant too, Holland keep trying to clear the ball but Roy Keane keeps intercepting it. Dutch genuinely didn't know what to do.
I also like the Robbie Keane goal in Paris, great work from Duff up the wing.
I think MON will have taken much more from that performance than from a 3 or 4 nil stroll.
it has been a great night for him, in that he got 3 points, while having been able to learn valuable lessons(hopefully)
This will not be the team or system that will be used against Gibraltar.
However, he may have been thinking of employing the same team and tactics against Germany. Hopefully tonight will cause a slight rethink.
Embrace the late goal. It is a much better feeling scoring these than our usual conceding them.
I think I'm unduly transferring my disappointment in McCarthys performance onto the rest of the players. I really thought that his assist for the goal was going to spur him into being more assertive. His contribution belies his actual playing experience at this stage.
He was played completely out of position so his experience wasn't worth a jot really.
My thoughts exactly. Best Irish goal I've ever seen. Other contenders being McAteer in Amsterdam and maybe Kennedy at home to Yugoslavia, certainly in terms of being "telegenic".Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
mcateers goal v holland 00 was great but the build up to robbies goal that day was superbQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
It's definitely the best goal technically that I have seen Ireland score. No point in comparing it to team goals really and it was on a different level to some of the shots I've seen mentioned, given the ridiculous piece of skill that went before it.
Yes, that's the key. Was O'Neill happy with that (Trap would) or is O'Neill thinking of adjustments? He may not be but he deserves the benefit of the doubt after one game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovial Rambler
Going back a couple of pages, Hoolahan uses the ball better than anyone else we have in an opponents' half. I don't give one jot if Barcelona aren't scouting him or if he'll be 34 in two years time. We don't play qualifiers in two years time, we play them now.
Possible losers from last night:
Forde
Wilson
Ward
Keane
Walters
Possibly even McCarthy
4 at the back
Possible winners from last night:
Westwood or Given
Delaney, Keogh or McShane at Wilson's expense
Wilson or Clark, at Ward's expense
Gibson, Hoolahan and Reid all credible options for one midfield place
Whelan - I thought he did very well actually
Long and Doyle, at Keane's expense and maybe also Walters
Pilkington over Walters
Quinn has cemented his position as valuable option
3 at the back. If you ain't got a great left back, maybe the answer is not to use one?
Obviously McGeady is man of the moment.
Brady and McClean are non-movers. Close to the team but only one likely to start at any given time.
Yep, both goals were amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Forde just isn't good enough really. Far too many goals conceded are falling into the 'he could/should have done better' category. Given's recall was a strange one but he would be my back up to Westwood right now.
Ward played reasonably well but an awful piece of defending very nearly cost us the two points, and probably will down the line. I think it's something we might just have to put up with though as Wilson is still our best bet to accompany O'Shea. I'd prefer to have a liability playing left back than centre back. Maybe Clark or even Delaney could be an option for left back but both seem highly unlikely to be considered.
Taking McCarthy out of a position where he has really excelled over the last year or so seems daft, even more daft when it wasn't rectified when it clearly wasn't working, nice assist aside.
Long has to start in Germany... Scotland caused them some real problems in behind.
The starting team for Gibraltar is intriguing.
To me, in a game we're trying to win, picking Glenn Whelan and James McCarthy together is non-sensical. James has played solidly now as part of a fluid midfield under Martinez, being a breaker, a recycler of possesion and a presser. Not a creative force, or the attacking focal of a trident. It was a stupid decision. If, as it's alleged, his fitness was under question, then it's an even more stupid decision.
I thought Whelan was fine, as he's always been. Quinn was nice in patches too, but he is definitely more lightweight, even if he does try to get stuck in. I felt three of the back four were gash, both off the ball and on the ball. Coleman was fine, but he's never going to be the Coleman of Everton playing for us, either defensively or offensively, because we've no cohesion in the back 4 and the standard of player in each position is drastically worse than the Everton equivalent*. That said I don't think he'd a bad game. He offered plenty going forward, and considering we've jettisoned wingers (in the trad sense) he got more than his fair share of crosses into the box, two of which in particular were absolutely delicious and required excellent headed clearances by Georgian centre-halves.
It's disappointing that we didn't break more behind/down the side of their back 3, because the full-backs weren't exactly hectic. Had we a good right midfielder and a good left-back, that would have made a difference, as it was the two sitting in the middle for georgia were able to flood back to press McGeady and isolate Keane. Hoolohan and Reid would have made a huge difference.
*it's little things that I've constantly said here. The positioning of the two centre-halves, the fact neither is a leader, the fact neither has any remote idea of how to distribute the ball effectively from the back or how to do it in conjuction with the midfield triquartista (ie Whelan). Absolving OShea of the blame for the goal is wrong. He challenged the player, then inexplicably let him turn on the ball without so much as getting close to him, within 30 yards of our goal. Shocking defending of the highest order. Had Ogirshvilli laid the ball off, or been shepherded into the corner for Wilson to take over, I'd say fine, blame Wilson. That didn't happen. Ward didn't cover himself in glory there either.
Keane understandably was not at the races. Much quicker tempo, isolated, and our passing, both quality and selection wise, was not good enough. That said, I don't think Robbie exactly took up great positions too.
Everyone knows I'm a McGeady fanboy, and to me he's a delight to watch, if we utilise him correctly, he'll qualify us for Euro 2016. He's our most important player now, and as such to see him getting gang-pressed onto the flank where he's double-marked and wasted is annoying. British people, and by extension Irish people, have this horrible tendancy to not relinquish a train of thought, once it takes root. McGeady will always be hated by the dumb fan, for his lack of end product, and because he turns back on himself. He doesn't defend either. What a load of tosh! A number of times, and this is happening with increasing regularity, he'll break with a ball, make the hard yards, then HAVE to check back, because there is noone in support, or only Robbie in the box. It's an obvious tactic that was used by Trappatoni to relieve pressure, and O'Neill seems to be making the same.
There must absolutely be changes for Gibralter. Personally speaking, I just don't rate Forde. He's a good keeper, but he has poor distribution, and while he's a good shot-stopper, he's not what he should be. Westwood is the best all-round keeper we have, by an absolute mile, he's first-choice at club-level again, and if we're going to play half-football, half-hoofball - or to be more precise, play a game whereby one of our tactics is to launch balls from the keeper - then you need the keeper that can best do that. Westwood is that man. Forde is a more than adequate backup. I'd also have the City kid in the frame for 3rd choice**
Given Gibralter are not going to be an attacking force of any kind - any worries I had previously have been totally wiped away- I would advocate playing Glenn Whelan alongside either John O'Shea or Damien Delaney. Let Whelan sit in front of one centre half. He's reserved enough when playing the screen anyway, and I think having two stoppers that cannot keep possession flowing is pointless for a game like this. at least Whelan in theory could carry the ball out from the back, while not worrying too much about defensive responsibilities.
Let McCarthy do the donkey work such as pressing and harrying, breaking play up and leave Gibson and Reid (or Stephen Quinn) the responsibility of making things happen. Hoolohan and McGeady as central attacking points with the licence to roam and interact with attacking full backs (essentially wing-backs or wide midfielders) Coleman. and McClean or Brady.
I would have thought Long was more suited to the single up front, but he was so bad yesterday it was startling. Keane up front could work again at home, but I wouldn't be averse to having a target man such as Doyle up there, or pandering to what I suspect is a sullenness of Shane Long.
The problem with that is that it's bat-sheet crazy, untested, and therefore probably unworkable. It's
If all are available:
Westwood
O'Shea/Delaney
Whelan
Coleman McCarthy Reid Brady/McClean
Gibson
Hoolahan McGeady
Long/Keane
**on the subject of keepers, recalling Given has ****ed me off severely. I don't understand it at all. He's got to be rusty. His powers were on the wane when he was first choice three years ago. If he was coming in to augment or coach then I'd kind of get on board, but McDonagh is more than capable. It has annoyed me greatly, and a little similar to the obervastion on Man Utd's stuttering start down to Van Gaal insisting so many new faces needed to be introduced undermining the confidence of the existing players, what would the recall of Given done to the current pecking order of keepers.
Keane has a great record against the minnows; he has to start there. Should bag a couple. After that, arguably much of a muchness. Our reserves should be good enough to comfortably see off Gibraltar (with all due respect to them). Keep the main team so ideas can be reinforced.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I don't buy the 'Out of Position' thing really, in this case... I took from MO'Ns prematch interview that he had more of a license than Glenn Whelan. He wasn't burdened by the responsibility that Whelan had, so he could have put in a more assertive, dynamic display. Gerard 'light' if you will. These are fuzzy, non committal tags I'm applying, I know. But you know what I'm getting at. If anything it should have been the easier role to full fill from a midfielder with his attributes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Aside from the back four and Glen Whelan it all looked a bit ad hoc further up the pitch. That could possibly even be a good thing, all things considered, provided the players apply themselves in the right way.
I dunno. I can say though that if, player for player, the performance was exaclty the same, except for a little more visions of potential from McCarthy, I'd feel alot better about the result. I'd feel like we've an extra gear to tap into, if we have an oppertunity to put to bed those teams in the little mini league behind Germany.
we should use the Gibraltar game to play the team and tactics to be used against germany 5 days later. when scotland had a go at germany in the 2nd half last night they unnerved them a bit and could have nicked a draw. we must do the same..... just have a go. nothing to lose as no one else contending for 2nd place will pick up points in Germany
Agree completely. I like him, I think he'll be fine if we were really, really stuck, and we're playing minnows, but for me against the big boys, it needs to be better. For me, better is Westwood.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Thing about Ward is that he's never been good there, either for us, or for club. He's always been ok at best. If he continues there he will definitely cost us points. It's either disappointing that after a year, we've ended back at Ward because :Quote:
Ward played reasonably well but an awful piece of defending very nearly cost us the two points, and probably will down the line. I think it's something we might just have to put up with though as Wilson is still our best bet to accompany O'Shea. I'd prefer to have a liability playing left back than centre back. Maybe Clark or even Delaney could be an option for left back but both seem highly unlikely to be considered.
A) he's the best we've got
B) Management haven't tried harder. or thought outside the box more.
What are our centre back options at present: JOSH, Wilson, Keogh, Pearce, Delaney, Clark? More or less. Duffy in the wilderness. I wouldn't consider either of two you mention at lb, because it's not their position, they're centre-backs full stop.
As dumb a thing to do as I've seen in a longtime.Quote:
Taking McCarthy out of a position where he has really excelled over the last year or so seems daft, even more daft when it wasn't rectified when it clearly wasn't working, nice assist aside.
I genuinely worry about where we will finish in this group. I think it's taken as given we'll get null points from Germany, 6 from Gibralter, and now 6 from Georgia. I think there is a huge worry that we'll finish behind both Poland and Scotland. Scotland are organised, but starting to look good on the ball, and they've had better results under Strachan already than we've had in nearly a generation.Quote:
Long has to start in Germany... Scotland caused them some real problems in behind.
Dunno if that's entirely possible. For a start, Gibraltar will play an entirely different game compared to Germany. They'll be sitting back defending in numbers and we'll need to break that down, whereas Germany will look to attack in waves and we'll need to counter quickly. Not really comparable. We'll get nowhere countering against Gibraltar.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
How anybody could think Forde was in any way culpable for the Georgia goal in baffling.
Agreed. Thunderous dipping shot, damn all he could do about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
One thing I've noticed about Quinn over the last two games is he doesn't spend a lot of time on the ball, he's always looking for a quick release. It's like he thinks he's always going to be closed down. But against the lesser lights of Oman and Georgia, there was more than one occasion when he had time to look up for a pass, or to take a step or two with the ball before passing.
Not a negative, just something I've noticed.
There is no doubt McCarthy was poor in his new role. The point was in response to you saying that his performance belies his playing experience. He isn't experienced in playing that far forward so I don't see how his experience of playing a completely different role would have helped him. Seeing as we're going with PL analogies, it would be like asking Darren Fletcher to play the Juan Mata role, or close enough. To be fair, his assist for the goal was Mata-esque.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_peepee
I'm not so sure. He looked to be caught off guard, not ready to pounce for the shot and ended up not moving at all. I don't know if he would have saved it if he was more alert to the possibility of a shot coming in, possibly not, but he didn't give himself the best chance of saving it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Couple of great goals for McGeady but his performance otherwise was poor with miss-hit crosses, losing possession, failing to beat his opponent. Mind you I’ll take the two goals anytime but swallows and summer come to mind.
I'll also take the result as if we were somehow going to become a new team with flair, ability, dashing play, overrunning the opposition, peppering their goal etc etc when history teaches us that we have to scrap for everything away from home, even under Jack's more talented sides. I thought we were relatively comfortable with Forde having to do little other than pick the ball out of the net after a moment's hesitation from Ward gave the Georgian a chance for a speculative shot. That said their goalie wasn't exactly worn out from saves either.
Whelan's moaning about us being happy with a draw was bunkum when evidence shows 4 or 5 men in the box for McGeady's winner which tells us otherwise. True he wasn't changing the system with the Meyler substitution but that doesn't mean we wanted a draw.
I have always said style means nothing to me: results are everything. We got 3 points in a game we were comfortable in without (except for a while after McGeady's first) ever looking like we'd win it. A sickening result for our rivals remember. Also the first goal from a long ball was a beautie.
It is a bit like a continuation of the Trap era with the Hoolahan debate. Fans seem to love him. Managers don't.
What did we learn?
a) MO'N is less polite than Trap to belligerent interviewers.
b) One man up front is not for Robbie.
c) McCarthy doesn't work well ahead of the ball.
d) MO'N doesn't trust Hoolahan away from home.
e) Keane is not the assistant like Tardelli and MO'N looks elsewhere for advice on the touchline.
f) We're 3 points on the way to the Euros.
g) The Panel: Ah, the Panel. The honeymoon lasted 1 minute before MO'N was accused of cowardice. So it begins.
h) MO'N does not have a magic wand (yet).
i) The fans will always believe whoever is not in the team is better than those in the team.
j) We're still in the tournament.
We'll beat the Rock People 4-0 and the Germans will have got rid of their rustiness by the time we arrive.
What was Kilkenny's goalie called? He looked the part.
I'd hazard a guess that McGeady's first goal was the greater pressure goal, he had a bit of time on the ball, dragged it wide and then the one on one with the goalie. McGeady's second goal was an exercise in instinctive sublime artistry in a pressure situation, but no time for him to feel pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Balls.ie have joined the best goal debate. I had forgotten about Robbie Keane's v Israel. That was a class finish from a brilliant pass to be fair.
Robbie Keane's opener against Yugoslavia was good too. Really nicely placed first-time finish on the half-volley. Technically quite difficult. Not entirely dissimilar to that Israel goal, which I'd forgotten about as well.
Was right behind the goal for that Doyle goal in Slovakia. Can attest that it was a cracker. :)
He didn't move because everybody could see he had no chance. He looks like he might have been a bit flat-footed but it's irrelevant because no goalkeeper is going to be ready for a speculative 25 yard shot in the top corner. I saw suggestion during the game that he should have dived, if only to avoid criticism, which goes to show how silly the whole thing is. If he'd injured himself diving after a lost cause we'd be cursing his poor decision-making.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Yeah I'm just not sure it was that unstoppable if he was set up right and expecting it. Always expect the unexpected as the ad says! It was an awful strange angle to be beaten from but I accept it dipped pretty dramatically. I just think he concedes too many goals where there are question marks attached and I think this might be another one. Fair enough if yourself and others don't.
If he was nine feet tall it would have possible been savable. Neuer wouldn't have stopped it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Well the crossbar is only 8ft. If he had anticipated the shot then he might have been able to get back quicker to touch it over. He was only a foot or two off his line. It goes way over his head because he stood motionless. In other words, if he was back on his line by the time the ball reached the goals he wouldn't have needed to be 9ft to touch it over.
How many times in football have you seen a goalkeeper claw the ball out of the top corner? It very, very, very rarely happens. You might see it a couple of times a year. I just think it's a ridiculous expectation to have of a goalkeeper. At the same time, I think other areas of Forde's game are deficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
How many times in football have you seen a keeper beaten from that position, without it being his fault? It very, very, very, very rarely happens. :)
If Forde was over to the other side of the goal I think it would have been unsavable but he wasnt that far from where it went in.
He seemed to be caught on his heals quite badly. I do think a better keeper would have saved it to be honest, he wouldnt have even had to dive at full stretch
The goal conceded just typified Forde. I don't mind him. He's a capable keeper. A top level keeper may have positioned himself better to capitalise on their superior reflexes in such a case. Nobody considers him top level so where's the surprise?
Ordinarily, I might agree with the criticism of the Forde goal. But there were three out-of-the-ordinary factors to take into account.
Firstly the shot was exceptionally struck and hit from a weird angle. That in itself would be enough to damn Forde, since he should have been more expectant and ready for action. However, he was also unsighted by two to three players and the ball took an slight, but reasonably wicked deflection to give it an extra bit of spin and dip.
All those taken together made it unsaveable imo. Unsaveable for Forde, for Westwood, for Given or Elliot or anyone else we could have played. If you want to make an argument for someone saving it, I'd make an argument for Neuer. Maybe. But he's hardly relevant.
The replay shows he's close to that side, but as CD said, if the ball's in the top corner, struck with lethal speed, it's going to be hard to save. Add in a deflection and an unsighted keeper and it's just a total melt for any keeper.
Honestly, I think people are happy to attach question marks to players performances because they're iffy on the player. It's particularly easy in the case of a keeper, because unless a keeper is pretty much world class, then there will be natural question marks. And that's fine. But in this instance I don't think the player is getting a fair crack. Particularly if we're going to play a fairly egregious case of 'I think Westwood/Given etc would have saved it'.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Sometimes the a powerful, freakishly accurate, deflected shot flies in the net. Sometimes we have to give our players some benefit of the doubt. If Forde - or anyone else - doesn't do it for you fine, but I still can't see many people keeping that one out.
Personally I'd favour having another look at Westwood, if he's playing well but that's just my view on the goal.
Hang on... it deflected? I didn't know that.
Slight deflection but big result, it gave it all that dip and spin. Was off the back of Ward or O'Shea (can't remember who was directly in front of the shot) but they discussed it quite a bit on Sky at HT, which I was watching in RTE-less Belfast.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Nearly impossible to see but the ball rises a second time after clipping Georgian no.9. Forde completely blameless. Sometimes people score good goals that can't be saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean