In every report I've read, it only mentioned that Trap and Marco are having their contracts cancelled. So, y'know, does this mean Manuela gets to stay on?... :cool:
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In every report I've read, it only mentioned that Trap and Marco are having their contracts cancelled. So, y'know, does this mean Manuela gets to stay on?... :cool:
Kingdom, when people rattle out that old cliché "we haven't got the players" you have to ask "players for what?" Beating Germany or winning just one home game of note in 6 years?
I thought Green was a monumental improvement on Whelan and better than McCarthy. It wasn't his fault Wilson blasted the ball into him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
You're treading on this ice with that sort of self-anointed pseudo-intellectual talk; just be careful you don't incur the wrath of David Kelly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
I have to say, it was one of Ronnie Whelan's saner contributions to commentary, to give the motm to Green.
God almighty; Harte, in contrast to the admiring others, just appears so petty and bitter.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
At one point early on, I'm pretty sure Ronnie was criticising Trap for ignoring Pilkington for so long until now. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Since making himself available to play for us - any delay there was beyond Trap's control - Pilkington pulled out of every squad, until Sweden, into which Trap attempted to call him.
The new manager should be given a % of gate receipts. Crowds will return if successful and we don't just hoof it :)
Highlight for me was claiming Del Bosque was doing the Spanish job for fifty grand a year. Eh, no, I meant Bilic Bill :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Bradys punditry has been really annoying since he's rejoined the panel. "We haven't got the players" While there is undoubtedly a fair amount of truth in this, he hasn't cut previous managers any slack in this regard, and I'll bet he won't be so generous with the new man either. Clear case of sticking up for his mate.
I'd like to see Brian McDermott given a go. A young up and coming manager he did wonders at Reading and seems to be doing well at Leeds. his teams play good football with limited resources so perfect for us.
He also stated that it was his ambition to manage Ireland earlier this year so he's unlikely to jump ship if he gets a good campaign under his belt.
For me it has to be a manager who knows about the players already, can make them believe they can match any opposition, attends matches, understand the mentality and does his bit to be respectful to the domestic league. I can't really see any further than O'Neill. McCarthy, McDermott, Houghton all have points to prove in club football and further down the leagues, the likes of Sheridan and O'Driscoll haven't achieved enough.
Definitely a good choice for MOTM. I felt as if the RTÉ panel couldn't bring themselves to admit he played wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Darron Gibson also tweeted yesterday:Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Quote:
On a more positive note, good day all round 2day! Knee feels good, trainin went well and.........
Meulensteen was sacked by Anzhi when he was found out to be a complete chancer. He was despised by players there, undermined Hiddink to the point where the man had no decision but to leave and only messed up by trying to cut deals with agents behind the sports directors (head agents) back. His biggest mistake was promising to get Alex Ferguson in as a consultant/director/ambassador if he was given the job. He failed within the time period and was sacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
I'm wary of any continental coach coming in, especially with the corruption attached to them, not saying Irish or British managers are any different, only they'd be reined in.
Again, no matter who comes in, they'll be destroyed before long. If we got Slutsky, Mourinho, Capello, Del Bosque, Bilic - all being told from our meeja that they're not good enough and haven't the experience of standing on a muddy pitch in Glasthule in November.
Crass. There's a part of me that hopes Gibson never plays for us again.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Agree with you in many ways. Regardless of what I think of Trap's decisions over the past 18 months, he is a footballing god and a gentleman. He is 100 times the man that Gibson will ever be.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Having said that, Gibson is somewhere in the category betweena good and a very good premiership player. He would greatly improve us on the pitch, even if he does come across as a total **** of the highest order.
It was really poor around Paul Green. The sort of stuff I'd expect from lads in a pub who haven't a notion what they're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Green was very good the other night. You could easily put together a bunch of clips showing him winning the ball and using it well (even if not always spectacularly). I can easily remember 6-7 great pieces of play from him. If it was Hoolahan or someone Dunphy and Giles would have been soiling themselves. Fact is, they couldn't properly judge the lad's performance because they have pre-conceived notions about him. Whether those notions are right or wrong generally speaking isn't the point, they should at least be able to see the lad's performance at any given time.
Disgusting stuff and Bill and Giles particularly should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. Pair of c**ts. The lad went out and gave 100% for Ireland and these two jokers are sneering at him like two schoolyard bullies.
They remind me of the two old heckling codgers in the balcony of Sesame Street, Statler and Waldorf.
Ashley Cole appears to be one of the worst human beings in the entire world but no fans of his club or his country have a problem with him lining out for them. Because he's a great player.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Gibson fell out with Trap. He seems like a bit of an eejit. But he's a very good player and I'd have no problem with him playing for us again. Unless he starts nicking handbags off old ladies in Portmarnock or bullying the younger members of the squad for their lunch-money, or something.
That is the crux of the issue. I don't think anyone here believes that we should be topping groups or having a 100% win ratio every campaign. But when you see our nearest neighbours striking impressive isolated victories over incredibly higher profile nations than themselves, it is natural to wonder what is the problem with us trying to do similar?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
If we acknowledge Holland as our last significant victory at home, in the following campaigns they have beaten: England; Denmark, Spain, Sweden; Poland, Slovenia; Slovenia (a); Russia.
They are serious victories. However, they've had hugely underwhelming, embarassing in some cases, defeats too. So it's not all flowers and lollipops getting a significant victory here and there either.
If you're looking at the peer opposition we've faced under Trap: Sweden, Austria; Slovakia; Bulgaria, Montenegro*; we've taken a grand total of 8 points out of a total of 30.
If you're looking at the superior opposition we've faced under Trap: Germany; Russia; Italy; we've a total of 3 points from 15.
It's been our consistent ability to beat the weaker teams** - something we've done quite well routinely (bar Stan and the odd crazy slip up per generation [Liechtenstein; Iceland;] - that has kept us in the hunt for qualification in the first two Trap campaigns. It would lead me to wonder was the tactic to beat the minnows home and away, not lose to our peers in pot 3, try to scrap points from the top seeds if possible, and hope our peers slip up to the minnows?
That's what frustrates me, and why I, perhaps snidely, ask that question about "the quality of our players". I don't believe our players are stupid. I don't believe that they wouldn't be able to adapt to a different formation at home that would utilise the creativity that we lack, or moulded to attack the weak links of the opposition.
I was thinking of something else there. People say that the Andorra's of this world should not be in qualifying, because they're sole objective is to concede as few goals as possible, and offer nothing. That's not remarkably different to our recent mentality of trying to not be beaten away from home. That run was excellent, but if the game plan doesn't change at home - and it hasn't, then really what's the point. It's like Russian Roulette with no bullets. You don't die, but neither does the other guy.
*I would include Montenegro as a peer in hindsight, as they have been very consistent in the qualifiers since their inclusion.
** I wouldn't include Israel as a weaker team in hindsight either, as that was their best team of a generation, and their results in that group proved it.
http://www.thesquareball.net/2013/09...land-position/
Brian McDermott has today ruled himself out of the Ireland manager’s position, which was vacated on the back of Trapattoni’s departure. McDermott was a favourite at the bookies and mentioned specifically by the FAI’s John Delaney, but he moved today to quash rumours that he could be set to leave Leeds, referring to himself as “100% committed” to the task ahead at Elland Road.
Having been embraced wholeheartedly by Leeds fans since taking over in April, McDermott says he feels as though he has been “adopted here at Leeds” and that he owes “these supporters” for that. Whilst McDermott would clearly love to manage Ireland, he says that “the Ireland job is in the future”.
Referring back to Leeds, McDermott set his eyes on what needed to be done, saying that in the past there has been too many quick fixes and a significant lack of stability. McDermott clarified that he sought assurances from Acting CEO Paul Hunt and MD David Haigh after Ireland’s interests became clear, and it can be seen as nothing but a positive that he came away from those talks with the confidence to move forward.
I would imagine that what he was really thinking to himself when he uttered those words was 'The Ireland job is in the future... When they have better players and the public more realistic expectations'. But we'll never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
could be waiting so...Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
How has mypost taken the news? Not seen him on here for a while.
Likewise I'd ultimately have Gibson back because he has quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yard of Pace
However Cole is a world class left-back who appears to be a brilliant professional but a horrid person. Gibson is a decent midfielder who lacked class and professionalism when he decided to pick and choose when he plays for his country.
I don't actually care what type of human Gibson is, I care about his commitment and volatility when he doesn't get his way. Particularly when you consider Gibson would have a fraction of the caps (and been far less likely of a decent move) if it wasn't for manager the threw a strop at.
hughton also rules himself out...
"Leeds manager Brian McDermott and Norwich City boss Chris Hughton have ruled themselves out of the running for the vacant Republic of Ireland manager's job.
McDermott and Hughton revealed at pre-match press conferences for their clubs today that they wish to remain with their respective sides.
Hughton said: "I'm Norwich City manager, the fans and the board have been incredibly supportive to me and I'm very happy here"
Going on Ashley Cole's own tale of nearly crashing his car upon hearing that Arsenal were "taking the **** out of him" by offering him 5k less a week than he wanted, I'd be interested to see his reaction if he spent a tournament watching patently inferior left-backs play for his country while spending the entire time as an un-used substitute.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I'm prepared to cut Gibson some slack. He seems like a winner. I'd rather him than some useless plodder who got ideas above his station and would lick Trap's hole at any opportunity just because he was getting his game. Like Glenn Whelan. :D
what has gibson ever done in an Ireland shirt (or everton or man utd for that matter) that suggests he is a "winner"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yard of Pace
lazy, soft, moody and disinterested are words that are probably more appropriate.
what has glenn whelan ever said or done that would suggest he "got above his station"?
Could your assessment of this situation be any more one-sided? There are two sides to every story. Gibson hasn't exactly gained much from exiling himself. Makes you think he might have strong reasons to do so, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Also plenty of players pick and choose when they play for their country. Injury requirements by clubs, early retirement etc. All of which could be easily seen as being more unprofessional than refusing to play for a manager who you have an acrimonious relationship with.
You also give Trap way too much credit. I'm sure Gibson would have gained plenty of caps under a different manager. He was already in the squad pre-trap, he was a young Man Utd player and there were very few viable CM options available. You then give Trap credit for Gibson's move as well. Going by the average person's comments here, if anything his international appearances would have hindered any move due to him being such a poor player and failing to do anything in a green shirt. He got his move because he's a good player and the current and former Man Utd managers both agree with this sentiment. His 8 starts for Trap over 5 years had little to with it.
He said a few things over the years after Trap compared him to Gattuso at the beginning of his reign.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
I really don't like Glenn Whelan, so don't mind me.
As for Gibson....
http://ballsdot.wpengine.netdna-cdn..../12/gibson.gif
I'm sure he considers them good reasons. I just take a dim view on taking yourself out of consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Not an argument I buy at all. Disingenuous injuries are poor form, early retirement depends on context - but let's not get into non-specific whataboutery. I happen to think it extremely unprofessional for a player to repeatedly refuse to play for a manager who he played under for a number of years, whether because of a falling out or because the manager didn't pick him at a tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
What might and might not have happened doesn't concern me, but it's laughable to suggest his international career had no bearing on his move. Ferguson can agree with the sentiment all he wants - he played him only occasionally, and rarely in his final season or so at OT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Meanwhile Trap made him a fixture of an international squad, and the de-facto third choice midfielder for most of his tenure up until the Euros. This despite Gibson's continued selection being held up by a section of support/media as an example of Trap's muppetry.
Another manager may have started him every Ireland match, but another might've discarded him completely. Gibson's a good player, but his position even in the squad was under scrutiny from day one because he barely got a game with his club and split the crowd when in a green shirt.
Moyes might have taken an interest, might have signed him. But Gibson was a punt, albeit cheap, and Moyes has a hard-won reputation for thriftyness. I really can't see him signing a player just because he's buddies with the guy's manager, particularly when that manager doesn't even play him and is willing to let him go easy.
Moyes had to weigh it up carefully - you really don't think the consistent seal-of-approval from an international manager didn't feed into that?
As for being one-sided, it's not that I haven't considered what Gibson's side could be - I just find it really weak sauce for prolonged self-exile. If it turns out Trap called him a chubby nordie turncoat, I might reconsider but, even then, I find self-exile really, really infuriating.
So remaining realistic candidates:
O'Neill
Pros
- Experienced at top level management.
- Had an excellent managerial record before Sunderland.
- Available straight away.
Cons
- Generally his teams play negative football which has been one of the main criticisms of Trappatoni.
- Perhaps his best years are behind him.
- Not a former player so perhaps won't have the same affinity for the setup, fans and players as some of the other candidates.
McCarthy
Pros
- Already an experienced International manager.
- Has a great affinity with the team and fans.
- Apparently has a release clause in his contract which allows him to take the job if offered.
- 2002 World Cup perhaps the pinnacle for any Irish team, performance wise.
Cons
- Has a very average managerial record compared to some of the alternatives.
- Besides the 2002 World Cup his almost 7 years in charge were fruitless with considerably better resources than Trappatoni.
O'Leary
Pros
- Has a very decent record at the top level in club management.
- One of our greatest ever players. Who can forget Italia 1990?
- Available immediately and perhaps looking to prove himself after a considerable time in the wilderness.
- His teams play attractive football.
Cons
- Perhaps more likely than most to use the position as a stepping stone to get back into club management.
- His post match interviews are excruciating.
- Hasn't done anything of note as a manager for a number of years.
Keane
Pros
- Arguably our greatest ever player.
- Inspires confidence in all around him.
- His desire to win is legendary. He's not going to take the job just to do the best he can.
Cons
- Likely to fall out with players leaving them in the International wilderness.
- Polarising figure. May create disunity within the team and amongst the fans.
- His management record is fairly poor.
Coyle
Pros
- His teams play attractive football.
- He has a good record of getting the best out of teams with limited resources.
Cons
- His management profile has been on the slide in recent times.
- Has only recently accepted a new job so unlikely to be interested.
You're right it's all about circumstances. Duff, O'Brien, Steven Reid. Retired, withdraws to manage injury but plays for club, retires but available in an emergency. All took themselves out of consideration.
You talk about whataboutery. You might want to look in the mirror, my friend. You are just speculating about things yourself. You, like I, don't know the specifics of what transpired between them.
On one hand you're saying that Gibson was poor for Ireland and that he should be thankful to Trap for picking him. And on the other you're saying that these poor performances helped him get a good move. Doesn't quite add up.
What helped him get a good move is that he's a good player and Ferguson advised Moyes to take him.
EDIT: In reply to Swans monster above.
down to 59th in world rankings
Iceland, wales , cape verde islands , and uzbekistan are all ahead of us
http://www.fifa.com/worldranking/ran...ble/index.html
Don't disagree with much in your post except the BIB. Roy Keane's desire to win is not legendary. It's a myth. Roy Keane's desire to do what's best for Roy Keane is legendary. Most of the time, that entails winning but sometimes it involves doing things that actually hinder his team's ability to win for selfish reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Two examples:
1. Getting deliberately sent off for assaulting Haaland with a Manchester derby poised at 1-1 to settle an old score.
2. Getting deliberately sent off for elbowing McAteer with a game against Sunderland poised at 1-1 to settle a petty argument.
You think they were unprofessional? With those who retire early, commitment is usually beyond reproach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
That isn't what whataboutery means. Anyway I've barely speculated on the details between between Trap and Gibson. What we know is Trap didn't play him at the Euros, Gibson subsequently didn't want to play for Trap. I find that unacceptable, as outlined in several 'monster' posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
For the circumstances to dramatically change my mind, they'd have to be so sensational they'd likely be widely known amongst players, FAI and media ie Trap called Gibson fat, which is rumoured. I talked about this over in the Gibson thread - there isn't any indication of this was the case beyond innuendo.
Where did I say Gibson was poor for Ireland? If you want to check my views on Gibson the player, they're largely in this thread - I've always been a fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Where did I say 'these poor performances helped him get a move'? I just didn't, not even close.
What I actually said is there was large number of fans and media who questioned him being a fixture in matchday squads. That's 'fans and media'.
I separately said Gibson helped get his move because Moyes would have factored in the player regularly being included in matchday squads.
Would you say Moyes would listen to fans and media or the actions of an acclaimed manager?
That's a reason. But are you saying, categorically, a player's international exploits bears no bearing on getting a transfer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Best take this to the Gibson thread or PM if you want to actually answer.
- You don't?
- I know what whataboutery means. My use of it is fine. Maybe check the meaning yourself?
- Maybe not yourself saying Gibson was poor but your support/media line who perceived him to be poor, as you then point out yourself. You know what I'm saying.
- A 1% bearing, maybe. It's insignificant, really. Being behind Whelan, Andrews, Green isn't really a ringing endorsement to join the 6/7th best team in the PL. Getting caps for most countries isn't really a bearing on whether a manager deems that they have the ability to play for a top PL side. All they show is roughly your ranking among your fellow countrymen, which in this case isn't such a great endorsement for Gibson.
Generally, no. Duff's gave his all for Ireland. Steven Reid's history of injury makes his retirement understandable. You talking about Andy O'Brien? Not really all that exercised about it to be honest. He certainly didn't decline to come back repeatedly, unlike Gibson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Really doesn't seem like you do. Feel free to specifically point out where I've engaged in whataboutery in regards to Gibson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
I know you've totally misunderstood me, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Thanks for actually answering the question. That's your assertion, I don't think it's on the money. As I've said international recognition mattered with Gibson because he barely made a dent in the Utd first team (cue 'CL semi-final' etc etc) and was way down the pecking order when shipped out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwin3
Done with this, Gibson thread or bust.
Reports say Mick's free release clause ran out in August.Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
I don't understand why he'd have an international job release clause that expires in the middle of an international campaign.