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I saw O'Dea playing for Ipswich when Keane was manager and he was woeful that day. Looked out of his depth in the championship letting the ball bounce in front of him a couple of times. Hope its a moot point and St Ledger plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Coleman withdraws - SSN
Not the biggest loss - we're covered wide right and RB
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
In fact I'd add Clark's superiority as a player to the argument and risk being rash in dismissing Darren's decent showing against Milan 4 years ago. If he's done anything of note in the meantime I must have neglected to notice.
WTF. I realy hope that is it for injuries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
ah come on... e's are good.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
ebeneezer.
"Likely #ROI team for Sat based on training today: Westwood, Foley, Dunne, St Ledger, Kilbane, Duff, Whelan, Gibson, McGeady, Doyle, Keane."
That would be my team if given the choice. I have to say, and probably against popular opinion Im undecided about Gibson or Green, hopefully we have more of the ball and then Gibson can use it but if we dont, then I would much rather Green was in there. Its important that we really start the game with a high tempo, Duff and McGeady giving their fullbacks a few palpatations from the first minute.
I think Kilbane will really do well with the addiitonal responsibility of assisting a few youngsters/less experienced lads in this side. I doubt Trap will discard his experience, leadership, ability in the air (both in attack and at the back).
The only worry i have of that is it means he wont get gametime in the uruguay game. We all know what trap is like with these things and how long it takes to get embedded in the team/squad. Hopefully he is fine again for carling nations and macedonia away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
He didn't train all week Noely. Or did you mean you hope thats it for injuries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Btw i know o'dea is woeful, slow, cumbersome, i just said we all know traps limitations by this stage(most have now acknowledged and agreed).
2 days to go, Noely's paranoia levels are well into the red zone.
The Macedonian manager has said they will play 4-3-3 so I reckon they're definitely going for the win. With any luck we'll outnumber them in midfield and cut off the supply to their forward line early on.
Have to start Foley at right full. Kelly has played well under Trapattoni, but his lack of first team experience recently (hasn't played for Fulham since November) counts against him and Foley is a regular in the Wolves side. Not always at right full, mind, but he seems to be able to play a few different positions equally well. Coleman has yet to impress at right full for Everton, with Neville getting the nod ahead of him, but he might get a run in place of McGeady, or Duff with McGeady switching wings
Left full is a different prospect, the obvious one is to start Clarke, but he's still inexperienced at this level, and starting him will leave both two central defenders with more caps than the rest of the back 5 combined. The word from training is that Kilbane will start, and from an experience point of view it's hard to argue with that. Dunne will need to be completely over his shoulder problem to deal with Pandev. He has an excellent record at international level, almost 1 in 2, but he hasn't played for his country in almost a year after walking out on the team. Shades of Zidane and Thuram in 2005 maybe?
Whelan has forced his way back into the Stoke side, starting, and completing, 5 of their last 6 games, and coming on as a sub in the other. Incidentally, Stoke are quite the Ireland team at the moment, with Whelan, Delap, Walters and Wilson all enjoying a run in the side recently.
Gibson can be an enigma, but he brings more of an attacking and possession threat than Green. The goal in his last game will give him some confidence going into this. I expect him to come off at some point for McCarthy, and given the choice, I would start Fahey anyway, but he's not supposed to be 100%. I'd like to see Whelan + Fahey given some time against Uruguay on tuesday night, thought they showed promise together against Norway in the November friendly.
With Duff and McGeady both in form for their clubs, we should be set for supply from the wings, but I'd hope Duff works a bit more on the defensive side of his game, given that Kilbane will be marked down as the weak link in defence.
Up front, it's as you were with Keane and Doyle, with Long to come on and give a bit more movement to Keane. Walters can feel genuinely aggrieved after his performance against Wales, he ran himself into the ground, and is playing well and scoring with Stoke recently.
so, in summary
Westwood
Foley Dunne St Ledger Kilbane
McGeady Whelan Gibson Duff
Keane (c) Doyle
McCarthy -> Gibson
Long -> Keane
Coleman -> McGeady/Duff
Nerves settling in now. Playing football later, hope that helps.
I really do pick the best times to quit drinking
<EDIT>
Just read about Coleman pulling out of the squad, so Fahey to come on instead of him
If I see O'Dea and Kilbane starting then I won't be the only one (especially with a fully fit Clark available). Would you agree with O'Dea and Kilbane starting ahead of Clark? And who are these youngsters Kilbane is helping out? We will end up with a lopsided lefthand side with Duff having to cover for Kilbane's touch and slowness rather than being able to play quick 1-2's with an overlapping Clark. We don't know the team yet so lets see what transpires.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
St Ledger still on the doubtful list according to rte sports news.
Foley, Westwood, St Ledger (to a degree). Gibson also relatively inexperienced (how many caps between them?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Quick overlapping one-twos with Clark? Does Trap allow overlapping Fullbacks? Who have you been watching lately? If Clark plays, strict instructions not to cross the half way line unless for set pieces.
Someone earlier mentioned Kilbane being a weakness for Macedonia to try and exploit - Wouldnt an international young rookie at RB be the obvious choice? Im well aware, as we all are, that Kilbane is on his last legs and its only a matter of a small number of games before he enters international wilderness but I just have a feeling that his experience will be invaluable on Saturday.
I wasn't at all impressed with both O'Shea & O'Dea in the CH partnership against Norway, possibly O'Dea was only coming back from injury, he got little help from Josh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
If St Ledger is out, Dunne/Clark looks the more obvious partnership.
If Kilbane plays instead of Clark at LB, I wouldn't be too worried. I'd prefer Clark there now, even if he's not a LB by trade. Clark has a football brain and skill.
Ok substitute sleeping for shellshocked and the lesson's the same - don't get overawed, stay focused and try not be so 'rubbish' (as Stutts said). :)Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
All I mean is (not unlike England last Saturday) - we were taught a lesson, we should learn from it.
Kilbane is not like a Stephen Carr, Ian Harte (still playing), Denis Irwin even Stan Staunton (at the end of their Ireland careers)in terms of football nous. He is in many ways too honest a footballer. Great person but I fail to see what he brings to the rest of the team now. His positioning is poor and he fails to read the danger signs. And as an earlier poster has said Duff has to now cover for him. Rather than having a Duff raging at Macedonia Duff has to hold back to make sure the left back is not exposed. Plus if O'Dea is selected ahead of Clark at center back (which now looks likely going by RTE's latest report) then we have a very slow left side of defense. Against a very quick opposing forward line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
Exactly. Absolutely mind boggling.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Ian Harte? Really - He was a bombscare at LB on many occasions for us at a much younger age (whether he is playing well or not at the moment). Stephen Carr, likewise has been like a headless chicken for Ireland. Not sure what quoting those players means. (Stan / Irwin - are obviously far superior FB's).Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Duff restricted because of his defensive duties? - I cant say that has been an overriding characteristic of Duffs performances in recent times.
Look, I dont think we differ massively on where KK is at the moment in footballing terms, I just think I would phase him out over the next 2-3 games including friendlies rather than just have him out for Saturday.
I think there's a perceived wisdom about Kilbane having 'no football nous' but I don't buy it. We all know his limitations, but he's been fairly solid in most games. Against Russia he was caught out a couple of times, but he certainly wasn't the only one and it's a little unfair to ignore the fact he was subsequently very solid Slovakia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
With injuries and inexperienced defenders, I think Kilbane's has got the benefit of being a leader and I have no doubt he'll bring that to the pitch on Saturday. It's a marginal call, but not an unreasonable one imo. Notwithstanding Duff possibly being slightly more cautious, I think the game will be won or lost on our attack intent and we should still have more than enough with Killer at LB.
As a general note though, I agree with Tets selection cept I'd have Lawrence off the bench instead of Fahey. And let's all hope Sledge makes it, because a half-fit Dunne and AN OTHER (particularly O'Dea) would be fairly hair-raising.
Generally, in the interests of the team overall, you phase players in. Why would there be any need to phase a player out other than to give him what you might consider a respectful and dignified bow out? A friendly game would be ideal for that; not a qualifier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
Agree completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
This ''experience'' craic is pure pants tbh.
We're all watching the game from the age of 4/5, you don't play professionally until you're 18+. It's not like you're putting in someone who new to the game.
Ability is what keeps players playing later in their career, not experience.
If it did count for something experienced players wouldn't make stupid mistakes(in general play.... but also look how the experienced Zidane got himself sent off in a major game, if you can't learn life with age, how can you learn football better?) and you don't have to look further then the aforementioned player for mistakes that have cost us goals in the past.
As an aside... how do you gain ''experience'' if you don't get into the thick of it.
All things considered though for the fact that's plying his trade in L1 playing CM I wouldn't have him LB for that alone.
Horses for courses though - this is a big pressure game, easily the biggest of Clark's career to date. That'll soon superseded during Villa's relegation scrap though...
I'd be delighted to see Clark play, but I have no problem with choosing Kilbane. I don't think it's game-breaker, and Clark/Cunningham will be getting plenty of chances to test themselves very soon (from June most likely).
I'll disavow this view if he has a stinker mind...
As much respect as I have for Kilbane, it's difficult to ignore the fact that he was at fault for many of the goals we conceded during the last campaign, and it's not as if he's getting any better. I understand he was our only realistic option at the time but now we have Clark as an alternative who is performing regularly in the Premier League and is perfectly capable of playing at left-back being overlooked in favour of a League One player on the way out.
Looking at this as one-off, with the circumstances of injuries, I can see the benefits he can bring to the team (as well as his faults). It's a cautious move but I can see the logic - just this once. Two half-fit centre halves (who might not even make it) and a RB with only one full appearance in the side just swings it for me. Continuity has it's pluses and minuses - with change elsewhere, I can see why it's worth retaining Killer.
And I really can't see this game being won and lost by our LB. Much like how multiple players were to blame for the Russia goals (and others Kilbane's picked up the tab for) multiple performances will be the difference between us winning and losing. That mooted side has more than enough to win the game*. As would one with Clark, in fairness, which is why I'm merely stressing that I understand the logic. I don't really mind who plays at LB.
*Cue Kilbane blasting the winner past a startled Westwood...
Keith O'Neill and Brian Kerr are on iTalkSport on Setanta right now talking about Macedonia games of old. Some great anecdotes from Keith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
We might all be getting ahead of ourselves here (and I take responsibility for posting the tweet in the first place). In the training match this morning Trap may have wanted to look at Clark at LB on the possibles team to see a direct comparison with Kilbane at LB on the probables. If Kilbane is to start then he is probably still considering Clark at CB in Sledge's absence.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
We probably won't know until Saturday evening as Trap will give St.Ledger as much time as he needs to recover.
You can be unlucky once, or possibly even twice but in the last couple of years he has been unlucky at least 4 times, thats not unlucky, thats a mistake or mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
What people are saying is we were over-awed on the day, sleepy and just general rubbish, yet all this speaks of an inexperienced team. We are a very experienced team in the back or at least that day against Russia we were. Now lets look at this in the context of playing Kilbane because of his experience, did it make a difference that day? No, it didn't, but the other way to look at this is if you are that experienced or that good you don't make these mistakes, you don't let the occasion get the better of you and you are mentally strong enough and assured not to let this happen. It did we were torn apart and my point is nothing to do with experience, its that with or without it we weren't good enough and kilbane was very weak in this game as well along with the likes of green and a few others who just had off games, dunne/whelan(worse than normal) and oshea too. But generally they are good, kilbane hasn't been for a long time now. That over experience for me, gives Clark the nod here.
We are at home against a team ranked 83rd in the world. Its the ideal time to bed him into a competitive game. Andorra he learns nothing, slovakia/russia a gamble, macedonia at home is the ideal time.
"Andorra he learns nothing, slovakia/russia a gamble, macedonia at home is the ideal time."
Agree 100 per cent Paul. Clark is younger, better in the tackle and can hold the ball under pressure. He's not bad at set pieces at both ends of the pitch also. So give the lad is chance.
"but he's been fairly solid in most games." No he hasn't. He's an absolute nightmare when the opposition come forward. He tucks in to the edge of the area, if not even further, and allows the winger an acre of space. He has been punished a few times, but should have been punished a lot more if forwards had taken their chances. Kevin Kilbane's best days in a green shirt were in 2000/1.
Fair comment and as most posts on this issue ( a few exceptions) seem to suggest it's a very marginal decision. For me it's not just about the LB position though, it's about a rookie keeper and right back (for Ireland) and two half fit CBs.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
If OShea, Dunne and Sledge were all 100% then I'd be a lot more comfortable with sticking Clark in. In the interests of the team on Saturday then I don't quite think it's right to 'phase' Clark in just yet but if he is then I'm sure he'd acquit himself well.
Kilbane had decent games against Slovakia, Andorra and Armenia by my recollection. By no means brilliant, but solid - perhaps even 'good' at times. Like I said everyone knows his limitations...Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Anyway Macedonia at home usually, sure. Macedonia at home with a decimated back five, not so sure. In the current circumstances with the defence, this is not an ideal time to play the biggest game of your career to date. I'm certain he'd acquit himself well, but it's still a tight call.
From now to Sat eve,
it's a process where 100% confidence levels gradually wither down to the levels of nervous wreckage just before kick off time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7nMY_zBvVYQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
And Noelys paranoia goes into over drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I'm not nervous actually, usually i would be, and have that nervous anticipation, maybe its because I'm just generally looking forward to a good weekend in dublin with mates, but im not that nervous. Poor tets though, his nerves aren't even "setting" in, they are fully camped up and "settling" in his stomach as we speak!
It's different if you can make it to go a game. Watching it on the box (flat screen these days) is much harder.
watch it in 3d.
No its like listening on teh radio compared to watching on TV, everything is exaggerated exponentially, it might be a shot from 30 yards out that goes 10 yards wide but on the radio it sounds like a goal, TV is the same in terms of attacking movement a counter attack or any quick moving piece of play on Tele seems like a definite goal is about to be scored, whereas when you see it live its nothing of the sort!
Re the Kilbane vs Clark debate, those who were of the Clark school might be be interested to know Nigel Worthington has similar views judging by his team selection for tonight's game in Serbia. Putting faith in the yoof. Seems to be as much with NI's poor showing against Scotland though, a bit knee-jerk.
A few memories here from Mcloughlin and Kinsella from 1997 and 1999 games (First 10 minutes)Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Alan McLoughlin & Mark Kinsella RTE Interview
I'm desperately trying to catch up on 20-odd pages of this. Can i shortcut and just recap on what people generally think Trap will go with? Sounds like now its Geysir's team above, with Gibson expected to start and KK at LB?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Sorry - with O'Dea in for Sledge.