I think you just what to moan today. Everything okay in your personal life?
I think you just what to moan today. Everything okay in your personal life?
couldn't be better to be honest, i got the job i went for yesterday confirmed at lunch time, and its a sector ive wanted to work in again for quite some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
However I just got a bit fed up of everyone here before not questioning anything and thinking all about 4 points and this and that, and blind to the fact that going the way we were we were never going to get those points. Everyone had a go at shamrockireland even though he put across a very good argument backed up well with relevant points. Im surprised he hasn't actually come back to gloat tbh!! :D
I think the conclusion comes that, unless we find a few solutions and trap uses the friendlies to the best possible effect by bringing in the names mentioned, and possibly some more, assuming they do well they ACTUALLY start the competitive games, then we will be still talking along the same lines come the next qualifiers i.e. it is up to trap to CHANGE himself and change the team and tactics as the need arises.
For the last time Paul very few people did this, there was a wide range of positive and negative views on the team pre and post games. Whereas the only people blindly insisting on a point of view were people like...Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
...ShamrockIreland. He brought up a couple of decent points but generally masked it in the kind of WUMming, hyperbolic rhetoric that's easy to ignore. And the evidence for his 'we're doomed' mentality was, and is, extremely thin.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I think a lot of people actually agree with some of the things he, and you say, but it's just so OTT. You can't complain about people being blindly positive when you guys are just as myopic on the negative side.
There're massive question marks there. For example, poor Paul Green has taken some slaughtering in here.
But I think there're lots of positive signs to take from yesterday's game, despite the overall lacklustre performance in the second half. We created far more clear cut goal scoring chances yesterday than Slovakia. We kept their two best players relatively quite throughout. Hamsik, who I personally think is quite a player, never had any real influence on the game. Both Fahey and Long were our best players, and in the process showed to Trapattoni that we do have some level of depth in our squad.
Russia are the best team in the group so far but there'll be plenty of twists and turns before this group is decided. We still have everything in our own hands.
lads in all likelyhood the team will stay the same with duff/hunt/lawerence/andrews/doyle all coming back into contention. i dont see to many, if any additions from nov friendly.
True, but how do you square that scenario withQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Congrats on the job. I trust it's not as a motivational coach :)
same way as kingdom says it here(perhaps luck....
[quote]As for their result against Slovakia, I wouldn't agree that they caught the Slovaks off guard at all. Slovakia I feel aren't as good a team as has been made out, and while results are the important part of football, sometimes they don't tell the full story. Slovakia were absolutely poxed lucky to beat Russia, and they needed an injurytime goal plus a ludicrous red card for Macedonia to get the three points[/qoute]
...But more likely because we cant finish teams off, and they only need one lucky deflection/penalty and 10 men behind the ball for 90 mins against russia to win, sounds unrealistic doesn't it? BUt they did it once.....
thanks stutts. ill have to put up with working with knob jockeys for the overall benefit of good experience.
Swan: honestly if i had the time or could be arsed and wasn't so lazy, id pull out the posts, but there was definitely too much unrealistic expectation, i say that based on what went before.
I partly agree. Last night was, for me, one of our better away performances under Trap. We bossed most of the game and should've won - poor finishing was our undoing. Slovakia arn't great, and certainly wern't last night, but we dominated them in their patch. Given the paucity of riches we've experienced away in recent years, that's worth something. There's still plenty to look at of course - our reliance on long ball, our inability to change a match or really up the tempo, our defending at set plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
But again it seems to come down to this argument of 'we're rubbish when we play poorly, but the opposition is rubbish when we play well.' So simplistic.
Yeah I wouldn't expect too many changes. I don't think it's wise anyways to make too many changes. But Foley and Wilson are in the squad so I think Trapattoni will give them a run out against Norway and/or in the forthcoming 3 nations cup. McCarthy possibly might get a look in as well (.... that's if he wants it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Duggie
I agree but I'm nowhere near convinced that we have it in us to eek out all the results we need. We're just not clinical enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I think Paul is misreading a lot of what some of us are saying. Speaking for myself, I have said that the team needs refreshing, but in this context it's good that Long & Fahey have shown that players can come in and make a difference. I hope, but don't necessarily expect, that at least one of McCarthy, Wilson or Foley may make an impact in November and afterwards. All I've been saying (since November 2009) is that with a bit of polish at either end we'd be miles better off. It's not wildly optimistic to think we can - note: nobody is saying we will.
In 5 months time we might have a bit more depth and players like Duff, Hunt, Lawrence may be back competing for wide spots allowing Fahey to move centrally. I can't tell you how happy I was with this fella's contribution last night. Keane and Given may be sharper. Of course, we may also be depleted so you can't count on anything.
id actually love to see fahey in the middle, think he could actually control the tempo. but hes not playing that role at birmingham so this may not help his case.
I always take a glass half full approach, rightly or wrongly. I've got a positive view of people & the world, it's just me.
Some facts:
Russia lost over 2 legs to Slovenia. They laboured against Andorra and lost to Slovakia in Moscow.
We were unbeaten in 10 games last year and the general feeling is that if we sharpen up we have it in us to get better.
That makes getting some kind of result being possible against Russia not unrealistic in advance of the game
We were the better team and made the better chances yesterday. Usual faults cost us the win. I'd have preferred they had less of the ball in the last 25 minutes but I felt comfortable during the second half last night, and this is from a guy who practically has a coronary when the opposition wins a goal kick against Ireland. This means that expecting a decent result in Slovakia wasn't too far out.
This is decidedly glass-half-full as well, but it's true that:
Slovakia were blessed to win in Russia
Slovakia were lucky to beat Macedonia
Slovakia were lucky not to be 2-1 behind to us (and lose)
Russia's 3rd goal against us was an outrageous deflection
Russia were lucky not to be pegged back to 1-1 last night.
On our side we got a soft (but correct?) penalty v Russia and Slovakia missed a couple of key players.
In the debit column we missed a few players ourselves.
On our side we also deserved our ugly win in Armenia and weren't clinical enough in either Armenia or Slovakia. With luck (a fair bit of) we might have got something against Russia (hitting the bar early on when Doyle was certain to score, Dunne being penalised wrongly for Russia's deflected first goal...).
OK, I'm rambling, but if Paul's contention is that Slovakia might pip the group because their luck might continue then I can't let that go without a counter of we might just stay in there if we play to our best.
Ya, ill go with the luck part when it comes to the latter :D joking.Quote:
OK, I'm rambling, but if Paul's contention is that Slovakia might pip the group because their luck might continue then I can't let that go without a counter of we might just stay in there if we play to our best.
I don't know if the defensive side of Fahey's game would be enough for him to play in centre midfield. If he did play there, I'd like to see him behind the main striker with 2 defensive players behind him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duggie
It's always a bad sign when the calculator comes out and we haven't even reached 1/2 way yet.
Time to smell the coffee Tets, 2 defensive midfielders is not working for us, it is as dead as the dodo.
Moving pieces around the board won't give it real purpose. There is no substitute for midfielder who has got the attributes of a midfielder.
Like I said, I don't know if the defensive side of Fahey's game is strong enough for him to play in central midfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
One of the first things that Trapattoni said about the games before he took over was that we were conceding too much possession and territory and the centre of the park, e.g. VS Cyprus, and bringing players like Whelan and Andrews into the side helped to shore up midfield and protect the central defensive pairing. Look at the goals conceded in the last campaign, the majority of them came from play down the wings, not through the centre. Russia were the first opposition in Trapattoni's reign to play through the centre of our midfield repeatedly in a game, almost three years after he took over.
I don't know enough about Fahey to say that playing him there would be a mistake, but I have serious doubts that it is the right thing to do. When Gibson came on last night, I said that Whelan would have to work harder than he had up to that point to cover for him, because he would stand that few yards ahead of where Green had been playing, opening space for Slovakia to play into, would starting Fahey in the centre introduce the same weakness?
Basically I don't think we have a solid enough defensive midfielder to cover for an attacking partner. Steven Reid was marked out early on as a box-to-box player by Trapattoni (go back and watch the away friendly against Norway - fantastic performance) who could play a defensive role and provide a link with the attacking four players, and we still haven't replaced him. After his last serious injury, it seems to me that the decision was made that guarding against a loss with two defensive players was a better option given the squad options available to use than playing someone like Andy Reid in midfield and trying to create a chance from the centre of the park.
As for Reid's eventual replacement, it might be McCarthy, Meyler, Wilson or even Clifford, it could even be A.N.Other playing DDSL right now. But I don't think it's Fahey.
Geysir, ive noticed a change in direction(thinking and mindset) from you also.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Perhaps tets, meant in terms of the way trap looks at things as oppossed to his own side of things i.e. fahey hasn't the defensive ability that trap requires for CM.
I think Fahey in central midfield would be fine. He can control and pass the ball. he also wants the ball as opposed to want to get rid of the ball. The game drifted away form us last nite when we started handing the Slovaks the ball. How many times did Mageady ,Green and Kilbane give the ball to Slovakia under very little pressure. I doubt passing the ball to the opposition is Trapps tactic.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
he still played whelan with reid......Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Reid had a good balance between attack and midfield, receiving the ball from defence, passing it out and driving forward for a return ball, and then getting back to cover. Has Fahey got that same work rate?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Does he have to be Steven Reid to play in centre midfield? Can't he just be, you know, better than what we've currently got?Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Guys, for all the optimism about blooding new players, remember it's Trappatoni we're talking about. Consider these scenarios over the course of his reign:
- Dean Kiely walked out as he wasn't getting games
- Stephen Reid has retired (maybe not long-term) as he was frozen out to some degree.
- Andy Reid has been alienated to the point of no return.
- Stephen Ireland, while I have little or no respect for, did remark Trappatoni's approach was rough around the edges.
At the same time, he keeps faith with Kilbane and introduces Paul Green, player who will invariably fall into line, simply because they do not have creative ability.
So, can we really see a revolution in the personnel of this team or even squad? Unlikely. I think if we hypothetically qualified today, we'd all pick 19/20 of the squad that would go to Ukraine/Poland. Trappatoni engineers interia in squads and a player's mentality. It's poor for us, because we really need to develop players.
In terms of the group:
Definitely fighting it out for 2nd. For all the talk about mentality, Trappatoni has still not solved the problem that is now nearing three decades old - we cannot win away. I think he uses the word mentality cleverly as we benchmark it against Staunton's team, which is not really comparable.
I don't know if Russia have it totally in them to win the group. Someone else's slip up will win it for them. No conviction in them. They were lucky last night with Macedonia missing a penalty.
This was, I think, our best chance in a long while of realistically entertaining thoughts of winning the group. It's not going to happen. But maybe best runner-up would be a consolation prize of equal value.
What was true for us in the last campaign is not true for us now. We needed that system at the time. So leave the last campaign and look at this campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Our options are a bit (not a lot) different. Things have moved on. But we look to have gone backwards, by standing still. In other words, the system which was brought in to tighten us up has become the default system. In fact, it is an archaic system which has been abandoned long ago by coaches. The natural progression is to look to move from the last campaign and tweak the changes. The 2 crucial areas are full backs and cm.
We can't play the ball out of the back 4, without having a midfielder who can get into position - receive - and pass - unless the other team backs off.
Nor can we ever hope to support attacking players - like the wide midfielders, without a proper full back.
We have just about survived the first 4 qualifiers, to be still in the race for 2nd place, but our system has been cruelly exposed and imo, taken a hammering. That's the coffee smell I am talking about. The system will hardly get this squad to 2nd place - maybe - maybe not.
I did not realise Whelan could be so poor, I had previously thought he was limited but effective enough for us within a limited sphere of responsibility.
As it stands, he is not an option, until he gets back playing for his club and demonstrates his fitness and ability.
Over the next 4/5 months, if Trap just wants to find players who will fit into the old system, then we are fécked.
Some truths in there but please tell me how Steven Reid was frozen out? Point taken and agreed with re-Green, but nobody has mkade any sort of claim to the left back slot. Kilbane's inclusion at left back is still justified, mainly by default. I've been on this forum since 2003 I think and I reckon the single most expressed view here (not one I share) since then has been about how bad JO'S is as a left back.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeNiro
Long & Fahey were two of our most impressive players in the last game and as subs against Russia. Trap does introduce new players and to often to good effect, unfortunately it's at Ian Harte's pace. Lawrence and Sledge are others who have impressed. OK, there are others who have yet to be given a chance, but with the exception of McCarthy and Andy Reid every single one is a marginal case in my opinion.
I'm 60% for Trap, 40% against. That balance will change depending on where we go from here. I maintain that we played well enough to win last night, we just didn't.
Agree with this. Trap does introduce players he's just choosy about who and how. He tends to like having a settled squad for periods of games and then shakes things up in the interim, like last Summer when Sledge and Lawrence emerged to play crucial roles in our run-in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
It may be frustrating, particularly when he appears to be picking inferior players, but the team is much different from the one he inherited. Twenty months ago this board was crying out for Sledge, Lawrence, Foley, whoever. There's nothing to suggest in another twenty McCarthy, Ward, Wilson, whoever will be a mainstay of the team/squad.
Glad I'm not the only one having misgivings about the current set up. Geysir's post is spot on. We are standing still instead of building on the good stuff from the previous campaign.
I'd like to see following line up for Norway
Westwood
Foley
Dunne
St Ledger
Ward/Cunningham
Coleman
Wilson
McCarthy
Duff
Walters
Long
Keane, Kilbane and co have enough caps. It's time to test the mettle of the younger lads.
I'd love to see that team named for the friendly shaker, these players should of got a run out in the summer friendlies, can't see it happening tho. starting to get annoyin
i'd have ward over cunningham, dunno how cunningham merits a place in the squad, nothin against the lad just don't see what he's done to be ahead of the likes of ward and kelly. man city had 3 left backs injured last month and they still didn't consider him, played a young centre back there instead.
mccarthy and wilson must get game time. coleman or foley should get a run as well.
i want to see delap brought in for the rest of the campaign as well, he has 300 prem starts, and he's far better than whelan or green , and for a team thats strugglin to create chances his throws might make a difference, even coming of the bench.
if whelan , kilbane and green start against norway i'll hit the roof, get the finger out trap
Well, I did say he was frozen out to some degree. My rationale for this is considering a few things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
- Trappatoni made incorrect comments about Reid's career being over.
- There was definitely one squad in 2009 when Reid was fit and wasn't included.
- Reid, by his own admission, said he didn't hear from Trappatoni when he was out injured for a sustained period.
I never said Trappatoni did this on purpose, but rather the nature of some of his actions/comments and lack thereof in other cases, can lead to a player feeling/being marginalised.
Also, there's a slight difference between introducing players to the squad (i.e. actively looking and qualifying them) and playing those that are already qualified. For example, Liam Lawrence was in the squad v Sweden in 2006, St Ledger v Germany in 2006, Long's first appearance was against San Marino in 07 and Kevin Foley was first in the squad back in 2007 (I think). Ok, he's developing them. But he can't be credited with finding them. Folan was also in one of Staunton's squad.
Who has he added to the squad since he took over?
Paul Green (he wrote a letter to the FAI)
Greg Cunningham, Keith Fahey, Westwood? (could have been there under Staunton?), Leon Best, Glen Whelan, Keith Andrews.
Who have we lost?
The two Reids, Kiely
Fahey is a plus. Cunningham could be. But would people trade the two reids for Andrews and Whelan. Without doubt. Kiely for Westwood? Short-term, maybe.
The net gain is very little.
He does not actively introduce, keep and develop players. Considering him and Tardelli are always watching players, they haven't found a whole lot since Feb 08.
I wouldn't trade the two Reids for Andrews and Whelan. Both have been chronically injured for the past two years - Andy doesn't take care of himself physically and Steven has had difficulty stringing more than a couple of games together for his clubs.
I think if we proceed with the current formation and setup then a box to box midfielder could be exactly what we're missing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I dealt with this in a post more than a year ago:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeNiro
Since then you can add Fahey, Green and McCarthy as well as bringing Coleman and Wilson into the most recent squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
PS cut out some of the text from the original post for readability
Interesting insight from the intrepid Tony O'D of RTE in his blog: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/f...tonyodonoghue/
Liam Lawrence was not injured. He hurt his hand in Dublin on Friday during the game against Russia but by Tuesday that was not an issue. He has had a sore leg for seven weeks now, but nothing serious enough to prevent him from playing for Ireland or Portsmouth (and scoring) during the same period. If things were that bad, like Kevin Doyle, he shouldn't have travelled.
Once he was dropped from the starting XI, like Slovakia's, Miroslav Stoch, he should at least have been put on the bench and been an option for 20 minutes or so. Instead we lost the services of two midfielders, Paul Green and Keith Fahey, to be replaced by Darron Gibson and Andy Keogh, neither of whom made much of an impact.
For set piece delivery alone Lawrence was worth a place on the bench and to be honest that remains the most likely source of goals for Ireland. Did you ever wonder if we got another penalty whether Robbie Keane, shorn of confidence, would have taken it?
- Can't imagine the dyed-hair one being too impressed with Trap.
To be perfectly honest, that's a load of rubbish from Tony O'Donoghue. Who'd have taken the penalty? Robbie would have, he'd have hammered it home too. Think about the complaint - that an unfit Lawrence not being on the bench was a risk, because the manager didn't consider what we'd do if our record goalscorer who has never missed a penalty for us and would certainly take the first one, missed one, and then we were given another penalty, which he for some reason would be too distraught to take, and which then Glen Whelan, Darron Gibson, Shane Long, Keith Fahey etc couldn't have taken if that bizarre situation occurred. It's like criticising Trapattoni for taking off Fahey when he tired/had a bit of a knock, in case he made another change later on, and then Given got an injury and our 3 subs had been made. I know Trap talks about the "leetle deeetails", but that's clearly just looking for an excuse to turn on a manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Honn
Lawrence has been struggling for weeks with a knock, playing 180 minutes against the two top seeds in two demanding games would be a huge ask, especially if his injury tightened up over the next few days. Trap has shown huge amount of confidence in Lawrence, thrusting him in to a big role. All of a sudden we're supposed to believe that he's turned on him so greatly that he doesn't even make the bench when he's fit??
A great example of the Irish media looking to stir up sh*te at every opportunity. Expected better from O'Donoghue.
Oh and as for Lawrence not being too happy with Trap, just read Liam's interview in the Irish Times before the Russia game, the guy is thrilled to be playing for Ireland and for Trapattoni.
I like how his first sentence says Lawrence wasn't injured and the next two list the injuries he had.
Fairly odd and contrived piece from O'Donoghue.
Delaney of the FAI organised a train for supporters from Bratislava to Zilina... Nice to see him mixing it with the fans
Attachment 1697
Looks like he's being erotically asphyxiated. Delaney, you dirty dog...
This is what i was talking about 3 or so days before the first game. Its what I had feared and thought would be the realisation, and geysir was one of the many singing from the same hymn sheet as everyone else on here, but the last week has opened his eyes. And I couldn't agree more with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Yes but sometimes the speed at which this is done is key. Sometimes, like now, and in the past, we needed these players to be brought in at vital times, or they could have made a vital difference, and we end up dropping points indirectly.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton