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Having an affinity to a place is different to what Ardrock is suggesting i.e that Finnan sees himself as English as well as Irish. I've never heard this being said about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
He might have an affinity to the place but I doubt he sees himself as English.
http://keeganlee1.com/stevefinnan.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrock
Well the point isn't about whether he does or not, it's that he could claim to be both if he felt strongly about it.
Anyone watching the Liverpool/Portsmouth match today? It is 3-0 Liverpool at half time. Marc Wilson is marking Torres, Finnan is on Babel.
Jamie O'Hara is definitely the best player that Portsmouth have, and by a wide margin too. He's doing all the little things right - getting into open space, slowing the play down to allow time for his players to re-position, and he's made a few delightful long ball passes out to the wings. He'd certainly slot straight into our team if he were to make himself available - Keith Andrews would have to make way.
http://blog.ireland.com/itb_soccerpb?entry=199
........Not only is he a player that Ireland can easily do without, it is never a good sign when a player needs to be convinced to play for a team. To suggest that he is using Ireland as a fall-back option is disrespectful to the Irish fans and the Irish players that would jump at the chance of lining out for their country.
........But hopefully by then this situation will be sorted out and Trapattoni will only be picking players that have a desire to play for Ireland.
In only the first few lines that piece includes "chase" "trying so hard" and "begging him". Are we doing that? I don't think so. The offer is there and if he decides not to bother waiting for England to call he can play for us as he also feels Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckydee
Seems fair enough to me.
We should get as many good players as we can. Too many average players in the Irish squad at the moment IMO.
I get the impression that Trapattoni cares little for the ideal nationality, he just wants the best players for the squad. If that means waiting for O'Hara to make his mind up, or for Stephen Ireland to change his mind, then he'll do exactly that for the greater good of the quality of the team.
Incidentally, this is what I had hoped for by appointing an "outsider" to the game here. We needed someone who would come in with a fresh pair of eyes, and know exactly what would be done to get the best team on the pitch and would come without any of the baggage that appointing someone from within the Irish football setup would bring.
What happens when you leave a country at 14? Or that you've been that to two different schools in two different countries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrock
I was born in England, left there when I was 14, moved to Omagh, did my gcse's here, a levels here, and now a student at queens in belfast. I've been here for 10 years now almost I certainly regard myself as a local here. England's not my home anymore and hasn't been since I was about 14.
I think the major point is that we need to be producing top-quality players in Ireland, and I think most people would agree that qualifying for one tournament every decade isn't going to inspire youngsters to become great players, especially given the recent success of the rugby team. If bringing in a few O'Haras, even as squad players, helps us reach a major tournament, then I think it's worth it.
To be honest, if o'hara comes in and helps us qualify and do well in the euro's all the complainers will do a u-turn. Charlie's post is probably the most sensible - and o'hara has a decent ammount of irish in him. I wonder how much of this has to do with old irish/english rivalries. If he was half-dutch, half-irish would anyone be complaining? Dont think they would, in fact they'd probably make an online petition asking him to play for ireland
I dunno. There was an online petition to Kevin Nolan instigated by posters on here some years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
I defended Clinton when he took a similar stance back in 2001. But with the O'Hara "package" something doesn't sit right. His comments alone regarding his international options say alot. Not in the slightest bit diplomatic when it comes to appeasing his possible "2nd option", shows a lack of common sense. Also has an inflated opinion of his England options given he can't get into his club squad ahead of Huddlestone and Jenas. The glamour model girlfriend too. I seen her on big brother (I said seen not watched there's a difference). The reason he's on loan is probbly cos he can't handle the fact she's been passed around the Spurs dressing room like a can of Deep Heat.
I dunno. I can't see him being an asset to the squad long term. He'll be missing friendlies and faking injuries before you know it. Storming out of squads if he doesn't start. There's just something a bit Chav about him. Put it this way. If tomorrow Keith Andrews was dropped for O'Hara, Andrews would be snapping but would bust a gut to get back in. However if O'Hara was dropped for Andrews I foresee a "Stick your team up your hole. I'm better than him." scenario...
Just a hunch..
If only we could do the same for the under 21's.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Even though both are eligible under the same criteria, I can't say OHara gets the juices going in the way that McCarthy does.
If the team has a desperate need, I would turn a convenient blind eye to a deft rabbit trick from Trap.
For the greater good and all that.
But I'd expect Trap to be judicious and intolerant of any hanky panky.
As it stands, i'd say he has put O'Hara on the back burner.
He's not everyone's cup of tea but Kevin Nolan got Championship Player of the Year.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot..._1/8568456.stm
It's time we stopped idealising football and football players, they are almost all selfish money grabbing fools now. The days of loyalty are over, they ended at club level a long time ago when money flooded the game and now it has crept into the inernational arena, we are now faced with the reality that players will consider their options carefully before making a decision on who to play for. The days of just playing for the country of your birth was your only option are gone especially for players of a certain level ie. O'Hara and Nolan - good players but well behind whats on offer for their birth countries, O'Hara will decide to play for Ireland IMO as he is nowhere near the quality of Milner, Gerrard, Lampard, Cole, Carrick, Hargreaves, Barry, Wright - Phillips or any of the many options England have in midfield, his only plus point for them is the fact he is a leftie but it would appear that Adam Johnson is also a better player. Had he kept his thoughts to himself I would be more inclined to accept him playing for us however his honesty does suggest that he will be 100% commited to whoever he plays for. He does fulfil only 2 of the criteria I mentioned earlier in the thread though, he would improve the team and he is qualified but does he want to play for us?Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_peepee
Why do people keep mentioning his girlfriend? Why is that important?
As a side point Steve Finnan is IRISH not Irish and English, he represented us at every international level never even thought to play for anyone else.
Why are people so offended by the idea Finnan might regard himself as part-English?
Surely this can't be right, isn't there still two months left in the season?Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
well when u consider that the forms for the PFA footballer of the year had to be submitted by xmas(not sure if thats still the case) its not that surprisingQuote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
That was the Footbakll Writers ||Award in England. PFA voting was done in AprilQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
The Football writers have chnaged (after they gave it to Ginola the year United won the treble)
But Ginola won both awards that year because he was the best player in the league that year, regardless of who won what.
Surely it would be better to wait until the season is over before any votes are cast.
Better not to get worked up about it tbh. Players wouldn't be around for off season but writers culd all vte by e-mail nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Colbert Report
O'Hara doesnt sit easy with me.
1) Hunch says he doesnt feel "English AND Irish" at all. Its more that FIFA say he is elegible for both - There is a big difference.
2) Perhaps Im being blinkered and ideolistic but I want our 2g or 3g players to be a Kilbane or a Breen or a McGeady or McCarthy who show nothing but 100% commitment to the green shirt, the same way the 2g and 3g fans do on the terraces.
3) Whether he makes our squad better or our chances of qualifying greater has no relevence for me
4) Yes - Ill admit it, pictures of him with the three lions definitely taint his image, something I would never be able to get out of my head.
Im sure if he was playing in the Green I would forget about all these issues as you do in a game - Id just rather he stuck to his first choice and we let him be.
Is it just the fact that his first choice appears to be England in particular that is supposedly tainting his worth to Ireland, or would it matter what country he was born in? Would people exhibit a similar unease with a player like Barry Maguire declaring for us after having already rejected a call-up to our youth side or would his particular "national make-up" be much more palatable that he'd be welcomed into the squad without question?
Just xenophobic isn't it not wanting foreigners in your national football team.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I for one don't have anything against English at all and don't know anyone that does, except these 2G and 3G Micks carrying some ancestral chip on their shoulder. I'd just prefer not to have them in the Ireland football team, same as I'd rather not have any Dutch, German, Brazilian, Angolan or Cambodian players for example. Doesn't mean I have anything against these nationalities, but this is international football, not club football so its not exactly appropriate is it.:confused:
The fact is the whole granny rule thing is a loophole that's been exploited by the FAI for so long, its basically came to define our national team. The new FIFA regulations allowing us to cap players who've represented England as their team of choice already just makes it more hard to swallow. I dont buy this whole argument about 'well we're a small country so we've got to look as wide as possible for eligible players'. Look at other countires with small populations like Denmark, Croatia, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia. How many of their squad do you think were born and raised in another country? Outside the British Isles there's probably about four players in the whole of Europe who qualify through a grandparent, yet you look at our youth squad for instance and maybe half of them only qualify on that basis. Doesn't give you much national pride.......
I sense your sarcasm but, as Charlie Darwin pointed out, it would appear that some people see it as an issue of contention that Steve Finnan might consider himself remotely English as well as Irish, as if the English adage would bring with it some form of stigma. I'm not accusing you of xenophobia. You've justified your conviction perfectly well, although I would disagree with your description of the "granny rule" as a "loophole". It's long been an accepted part of FIFA's rules. There's nothing "loophole" about it and it's not as if the FAI are the only ones "exploiting" it, although I think legitimately utilising it would be a more accurate description under current circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrock
I don't think it has come to define our national team. That's proven to be a myth in recent years, and one that originates in anti-Irishness and insecure self-loathing anyway. Maybe we should have a look at our own national insecurities and elitist/purist posturing before accusing others of being "plastic". Who are we to tell them if they're "Irish enough" or not?
If those countries you mention had histories of mass emigration like Ireland and a significant diaspora to match with such a proudly-preserved and inherited national consciousness, maybe your point would stand?* We should be proud that we have a diaspora that is similarly proud in return and strives to maintain such a strong bond with us. It's something we should cherish as a nation and, to be honest, this casual, smug condescension and throwing about of slurs like "plastic Paddy" from some sort of "mantlepiece of true Irishness" somewhat disgusts me. I would argue that looking at the experience of former colonies such as Algeria is more apt as their situation is more analogous to our one. I'm sure they're very proud as a nation to have qualified for the World Cup, albeit with a squad significantly made up of French-born Algerians.
*As an aside, doesn't Eduardo, a born-and-bred Brazilian, play for Croatia through naturalisation despite having no ancestral link to the place at all?
on Eduardo, yes - naturalised through residency.
Top, top post. To quote Wilde to Whistler, "I wish I'd said that." It's interesting living in the UK how the 2nd G myth is still perpetrated, even at a time when the English cricket team is populated by South African rejects and the odd Irishman.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Fantastic post :clover:
Below is a list of foreign born players who were named in their national squads for Euro 2008.
Croatia
Josip Šimunić - Australia
Robert Kovač - Germany
Niko Kovač - Germany
Ivan Klasnić - Germany
Ivan Rakitić - Switzerland
Vedran Ćorluka - Bosnia
Mladen Petrić - Bosnia
Eduardo was injured- Brazil
France
Jean-Alain Boumsong - Cameroon
Florent Malouda - French Guiana
Lilian Thuram - Guadeloupe
Steve Mandanda - DR Congo
Claude Makll - DR Congo
Patrice Evra - Senegal
Patrick Vieira - Senegal
Germany
Kevin Kurnyi - Brazil
Miroslav Klose - Poland
Piotr Trochowski - Poland
Lukas Podolski - Poland
Oliver Neuville - Switzerland
Also there now:
Cacau - Brazil
Jerome Boateng - Ghanaian/German (Uncle played for Ghana & brother Kevin-Prince Boateng of Portsmouth is about to switch to Ghana despite playing 6 U-21 games for Germany. Ghana & Germany are in the same World Cup group.)
Mesut zil - Turkish parents
Portugal
Pepe - Brazil
Deco - Brazil
Nani - Cape Verde
Jos Bosingwa - DR Congo
Petit - France
Also there now:
Liedson - Brazil
Rolando - Cape Verde
Switzerland
Gelson Fernandes - Cape Verde
Johan Vonlanthen - Colombia
Johan Djourou - Cote d'Ivoire
Valon Behrami - Kosovo
Eldin Jakupović - Bosnia (Played U-21 for Bosnia & received a senior call for Bosnia but didn't play)
Also there now :
Blaise Nkufo - DR Congo
Hakan Yakin - Turkish Parents
Eren Derdiyok - Turkish Parents
Gkhan Inler - Turkish Parents
Turkey
Mehmet Aurlio - Brazil
Colin Kazim-Richards - England
Mevlt Erdin - France
Hakan Balta - Germany
Hamit Altintop - Germany
Halil Altintop - Germany
Also there now :
Nuri Şahin - Germany
Austria
Ronald Graliu - Albania
Ivica Vastić - Croatia
Martin Harnik - Germany
Gyrgy Garics - Hungary
Also there now:
Ekrem Dağ - Turkey
Yasin Pehlivan - Turkish Parents
Veli Kavlak - Turkish Parents
mit Korkmaz - Turkish Parents
David Alaba - Nigerian Father/Filipino Mother
Italy
Mauro Camoranesi - Argentina (a Trapattoni acquisition)
Simone Perrotta - England
Spain
Marcos Senna - Brazil
Poland
Roger Guerreiro - Brazil
Also there now :
Ludovic Obraniak - France (He also played U-21 for France)
Greece
Loukas Vyntra - Czech Republic
Don't see how it hurted team morale or 'national pride' for any of those nations. Case closed.
Good post Trap, it shows the changing world we live in -- where you're born doesn't necessarily define you, and we're hardly the worst when it comes to "exploiting" the granny rule.
As for DannyInvincible's post, I don't think it was necessarily that Adrock was attacking the "proud diaspora," but rather, he was, if I am correct, implying that O'Hara, by playing for England at U-21 level, is not a proud member of the diaspora.
Now I know for a fact, being a dual-citizen, that people can love two countries, because I do. I would love to represent Ireland, or Canada. If that makes me any less Irish or Canadian, then so be it. I couldn't care less what anybody thinks of that.
If I were a top player, Ireland would be my first choice, but if I wasn't good enough, I would proudly play for Canada. I can't criticize O'Hara if he takes a similar position.
Thanks. I don't think people are even aware that many of the top nations are at it big time.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
Not quite..........Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Well most of the players mentioned above - all the French ones for instance - come in the Steve Finnan category born one country, raised in another and are not relevant to my point. I would have no problem with Sean St Ledger's grandad playing for Ireland after he'd moved to England, but his grandson to do so is somewhat more dubious. I'm sure in the future as more immigrants come to the Emerald Isle we will have a few players of our own in this bracket. Lets face it the France national team would be in a pretty sorry state if it didn't select players of immigrant origins.
Most of the remaining ones are more your Kevin Kilbane types, both parents from country they are representing, never represented another country. As I've said a couple of these in your squad isn't really an issue.
That leaves one or two only qualified through the good ol granny rule. Camoranesi is not Italian and I know a lot of Italians had problems with him playing for them. He has at least lived there several years and not played for Argentina at any level that I'm aware.
Then there's Obraniak who is not Polish in any respect and doubtless never gave a thought to his Polishness had he not happened to become a footballer not good enough for his own country, but good enough for his grandparent's country. Should he be playing for them? No ,of course not and if I were on a Polish football forum I'd be arguing this in lots of consenants. Poland have no track record of exploiting this rule though and he is a drop in the ocean compared to the legions of players the ROI have recruited this way.
In any case to say all federations are playing the same game as the FAI doesn't exactly hold water.
I just don't believe in this racial heritage stuff. Travelling the world has shown me an Albanian brought up in the U.S.A for instance is a yank and an American with an Albanian granny visiting Albania isn't gonna feel any more at home than me
As it happens I've a scottish grandparent. But do I go out prancing around in a ginger wig and a skirt when Scotland are losing their latest world cup qualifier? :(
However if I happened to be a footballer and my dazzling ball skills were for some reason being ignored by Trap and I was coveted by the SFA (seeking revenge for Houghton, Mcgeady etc) I might just swallow my pride and pull on a blue shirt and then I might just even pretend I always felt a bit Scotch to the media so they didn't give me a hard time about it. Isn't it great to be part of the 'diaspora' - really improves your options in life!
And I don't believe in limbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrock
Neither limbo nor racial heritage have any relevance to national identity or acquired nationality.
Where do you start with a post like this ? I'm not sure which is scarier, your views or the amount of effort which has gone into espousing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrock
Firstly explain how all of the French players fall into the "Steve Finnan category" They were all born outside of France and raised to differing extents in France. Finnan is the reverse I believe. The dynamic is very different I would think.
Its great that you think its ok to have a couple of Kevin Kilbanes in our squad. Thanks:sarcastic:
Your remark about the US Albanian betrays such a lack of knowledge of emigrant culture in the US. You mentioned in a previous post that it was possible to be English and Irish. So its not possible to be American and Albanian ? It is patently obvious that the US wasn't covered when you "travelled the world"
The adjective Scotch is used for pies, whisky and a junction on the A1 - never people. Your Grandad/ma never told you that ?? Its loathed by all Scottish people, in fact its one of the quickest way to start a fight here.
The use of the word diaspora in quotation marks - is this because you don't believe it exists? I'm unsure why you felt the need to use them. Please clarify if you can.
and eggs.Quote:
Originally Posted by davey
Firstly all you have done is tell us about you and what you would do and how you would feel (this is fine, it is a forum and its here for us to put our opinions on), how would you know how these 2nd and 3rd gen players feel about their roots? You say that travelling the world has shown you that 3rd gen people don't have any feelings for the home of their grandparents, I would beg to differ. I have lived in many countries (by lived I mean more than a year) and everywhere I go I meet people who are in fact more attached to their ancesteral home than they are to the country of their birth. My boss was born and bred in Sydney yet considers himself Macedonian because of his nan, every Greek person you will meet in Melbourne will tell you they are in fact Greek, even though they may have been born and bred here. From an Irish point of view, everywhere I have lived has had an Irish community many of whom are 2nd 3rd even 4th gen and all feel as Irish as I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrock
So Adrock you are absolutely entitled to have and voice your opinion but please don't believe it to be fact.
Damn, theres probably something else too:oQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Broth. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by davey
:ball: PP
Hopscotch?