Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by legendz

If a third tier is a possibility to be formed in years to come, how many of the current 19 LoI clubs are likely to join with a reserve/B/U23 team?

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Shamrock Rovers presumably would, Derry would have the finances for it as well you'd imagine. After that I'm not sure in a post-COVID landscape. A lot of clubs had A/reserve sides in the old A Championship in fairness, but that was a decade ago.

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Originally Posted by Shinkicker

Strabane get 2 men and a dog if they are lucky. They play I'm a league of seven teams and came second. They are surrounded by Derry, Coleraine,Institute, Dergview, Limavady utd and portstewart. They wouldn't last pi**ing time yet pull any support from any of the surrounding clubs including Harps. Remember Harps have had local competition in the past. They have watched them come, fail and dissappear back into obscurity while Harps trundle on.

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Strabane would be in the 3rd tier of the Irish League if they had a ground up to scratch, as they won their league a few years ago. The ground has since been improved by the council to the level that would see them promoted. Strabane Athletic are also planning their own stadium too, with facilities to embed them in the community.

Of all the teams you listed there, the only ones that would credibly have any impact upon players and support in and for a Strabane team would be Derry, Dergview and Harps. What local competition to Harps are you saying has come and failed ?

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Originally Posted by GUFCghost

Would Inishowen be a viable catchment area for a LOI club? Maginn Park seems good enough, and there is a sort of cultural divide between the peninsula and the rest of the county.
KiKi Balboa makes a good point about having the volunteer force to support a new club. I think if a group of people already involved in junior football come together and decide they want a senior club for their town/region/county it can be done. The ambition doesn't need to fester away in one club for years for it to be proven

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Inishowen looks to Derry economically and historically. All except the top of the penninsula really, where you have Fanad and Carndonagh. Places to the south like Buncrana, Burnfoot and Moville are very much connected to Derry. Parts of the city also spill over the border into Donegal Inishowen too (e.g. Muff, Killea). Derry City played in Maginn Park in Buncrana for a year when the Brandywell was being refurbished.

Cockill Celtic in Buncrana are in the FAI Cup early rounds regularly now.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Inishowen looks to Derry economically and historically. All except the top of the penninsula really, where you have Fanad and Carndonagh. Places to the south like Buncrana, Burnfoot and Moville are very much connected to Derry. Parts of the city also spill over the border into Donegal Inishowen too (e.g. Muff, Killea). Derry City played in Maginn Park in Buncrana for a year when the Brandywell was being refurbished.

Cockill Celtic in Buncrana are in the FAI Cup early rounds regularly now.

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When did Inishowen steal Fanad:D??

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Originally Posted by joey B

When did Inishowen steal Fanad:D??

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Them Donegal cute hoors would steal the eye out of your head if you weren't looking ;)

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

A lot of clubs had A/reserve sides in the old A Championship in fairness, but that was a decade ago.

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That was compulsary for top tier sides too, it was one of the reasons used to do away with it. I'm open to correction but I think Limerick and UCD were the only First Division sides to ever enter.

Actually the only year we didn't reach the final was also the only year we didn't enter, which was our First Division year.

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

That was compulsary for top tier sides too, it was one of the reasons used to do away with it. I'm open to correction but I think Limerick and UCD were the only First Division sides to ever enter.

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Harps had a side in it every season, and have had a reserve side playing Ulster Senior League ever since too.

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Originally Posted by legendz

If a third tier is a possibility to be formed in years to come, how many of the current 19 LoI clubs are likely to join with a reserve/B/U23 team?

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I would imagine all Premier League teams will be interested in having a team. Would the finanances be so different from running an under-age LOI team?

A big problem with the 'A' Championship was the timing, right after the economic crash when a lot of money suddenly left from the country, plus the idea wasnt so fully formed at the time.

The league is more stable now. I think too the competition will also have a lot more legitimacy in it being an offical 'Tier' of the League, which suggests its not going to disappear after it started. Plus the overall repuatuion of the league has increased, and with access to underage- LOI leagues (and thus the best youth players), it should be more attractive for regional leagues.

You could even get creative with the format to keep costs down or how the teams are formed (like if Galway do not fully want to have a team in it, but a Mayo team do, they could work together to give Galway United player games under a Mayo shirt).

Maybe I am being optimistic about it, but I think it is a great addition to the league, and I think a lot of teams will be interested in joining. It should be a good stepping stone for new clubs (wherever they may come from) to becoming a senior team.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Inishowen looks to Derry economically and historically. All except the top of the penninsula really, where you have Fanad and Carndonagh. Places to the south like Buncrana, Burnfoot and Moville are very much connected to Derry. Parts of the city also spill over the border into Donegal Inishowen too (e.g. Muff, Killea). Derry City played in Maginn Park in Buncrana for a year when the Brandywell was being refurbished.

Cockill Celtic in Buncrana are in the FAI Cup early rounds regularly now.

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Interestingly Harps support in Buncrana actually grew notably while Derry played in the town.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Strabane would be in the 3rd tier of the Irish League if they had a ground up to scratch, as they won their league a few years ago. The ground has since been improved by the council to the level that would see them promoted. Strabane Athletic are also planning their own stadium too, with facilities to embed them in the community.

Of all the teams you listed there, the only ones that would credibly have any impact upon players and support in and for a Strabane team would be Derry, Dergview and Harps. What local competition to Harps are you saying has come and failed ?

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You say Strabane won their league a few years ago. That wont get you up this year. If you wish to join the third tier you must put your application in a the beginning of the season possibly and most likely with about 5 others from the amateur league, mid ulster league, ballymena provincial league and others. Your ground must be up to scratch at the time of applying and if all applications win their respective leagues it's a playoff situation. At present the seven team league is not strong enough and God forbid if Strabane were to finish 5th of seven... Say no more. In Donegal there have been small meteoric rises from Fanad, cockhill and others who knew they couldn't take the plunge into higher level football most likely for financial reasons, therefore allowing Harps to trundle on. I don't think Harps will pull support from Strabane because if they did who would look after the dog!!

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Originally Posted by joey B

When did Inishowen steal Fanad:D??

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Hah ! ;) My bad - apologies. I meant Malin.

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

That was compulsary for top tier sides too, it was one of the reasons used to do away with it. I'm open to correction but I think Limerick and UCD were the only First Division sides to ever enter.

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I'm open to correction. I think Finn Harps and Shelbourne also fielded an A team while in the First Division. I was ranting about it for years!! If First Division clubs were willing to field an A team without an obligation to do so, the A Championship should have been restructured just for teams who wanted to be in it.

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

I would imagine all Premier League teams will be interested in having a team. Would the finanances be so different from running an under-age LOI team?

A big problem with the 'A' Championship was the timing, right after the economic crash when a lot of money suddenly left from the country, plus the idea wasnt so fully formed at the time.

The league is more stable now. I think too the competition will also have a lot more legitimacy in it being an offical 'Tier' of the League, which suggests its not going to disappear after it started. Plus the overall repuatuion of the league has increased, and with access to underage- LOI leagues (and thus the best youth players), it should be more attractive for regional leagues.

You could even get creative with the format to keep costs down or how the teams are formed (like if Galway do not fully want to have a team in it, but a Mayo team do, they could work together to give Galway United player games under a Mayo shirt).

Maybe I am being optimistic about it, but I think it is a great addition to the league, and I think a lot of teams will be interested in joining. It should be a good stepping stone for new clubs (wherever they may come from) to becoming a senior team.

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I'm open for correction here as well. St. Pat's and Sligo Rovers were strongly against the A Championship. It was mandatory for Premier Division clubs to enter an A team. Some did so grudgingly and lobbied for it to be scrapped.
As mentioned above, if 4 First Division clubs saw merit in the A Championship, it should just have been optional.
The First Division got by with 8 teams for a few years. Not ideal but if at least 8 teams can agree to join an Intermediary League, the third tier league can get off the ground.

I think you would have a lot more than just Rovers and Derry entering teams. All clubs have a team ready for the third tier this year's under 19s and with another year of development potentialy some players for the first team. The connection is strong with many players playing underage since 14 fir the club. .

Relegation from the first division would make the first division better imo. To easy for the likes of athlone to just stagger on as things stand. A relegation and subsequent promotion battle might reinvigorate them.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

I think you would have a lot more than just Rovers and Derry entering teams. All clubs have a team ready for the third tier this year's under 19s and with another year of development potentialy some players for the first team. The connection is strong with many players playing underage since 14 fir the club. .

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Not all clubs are as progressive to see the merit in an U23/B team. Sligo and Pat's would be in the unlikely to join group. It's fair enough though. It should be optional.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

Relegation from the first division would make the first division better imo. To easy for the likes of athlone to just stagger on as things stand. A relegation and subsequent promotion battle might reinvigorate them.

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In theory, yes! The threat of possible relegation should help set a higher standard at the lower end of the First Division.
If a number of clubs in a 3rd Tier were meeting the First Division criteria, consideration would have to given to an expansion of the First Division, were such a scenario to occur.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Not all clubs are as progressive to see the merit in an U23/B team. Sligo and Pat's would be in the unlikely to join group.

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What gives you that impression? I’m not sure re:Sligo, but Pats have a strong case for being one of the best run academies in the country with arguably the best track record of producing players in recent years. Also around the time of the controversy over the whole Rovers II coming back into the first division thing, it was mentioned in the national sports media at the time that Dundalk and Pats were among the other clubs that had an interest in putting a B/II team out in future seasons also. Obviously with the change of ownership at Dundalk their stance may have changed as I’d say Peak 6 saw a reserve team as the potential to give game time to their stockpile of foreign imports as they appeared to not give a toss about their youth setup. From Pat's end of things however I can’t imagine there’s been a change of thinking in the last 2 or so years.

EDIT: I’ve just seen your other post about Pats and Sligo being against the A championship. That was 11 years ago though and before the underage leagues were set up as they are now and certainly from a Pats point of view the academy is hugely important to the club now compared to back then when it was almost non existent for most clubs so yeah as mentioned above, I could see Pats entering a team if offered the chance.

UCD are unlikely to field an U23 team but you'd hardly call them unprogressive in academy terms.

The only problem with introducing relegation from the second tier is that you're not actually solving the problem; you're just shifting the problem down a level. The issue Tralee had when they were kicked out of the LoI (as effectively happened) and had nowhere to be relegated to is still there, and is still likely to cause clubs to be wary of joining the LoI.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

UCD are unlikely to field an U23 team but you'd hardly call them unprogressive in academy terms.

The only problem with introducing relegation from the second tier is that you're not actually solving the problem; you're just shifting the problem down a level. The issue Tralee had when they were kicked out of the LoI (as effectively happened) and had nowhere to be relegated to is still there, and is still likely to cause clubs to be wary of joining the LoI.

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Really? I thought UCD embraced the A Championship. They even won 2 titles.
The A Championship gave Cobh the breathing space to get their house some way in order.
A Monaghan or a Kildare County might have benefitted from being able to return to the A Championship.
A problem might be moved down a level but it's actually an appropriate level to rebuild if needed.

Is an U23 team really needed given our team now is entirely college students anyway?

I think even just dropping clubs like Monaghan or Kildare into a third tier is the wrong way to go about developing them. The lack of a pyramid has problems in so many ways. Are the strongest clubs being promoted? Are they missing out on the buzz of a promotion campaign to lead them into the first season at a new level? What happens if you want to drop a level down from the third tier? Is there an issue with trickle-down development of facilities (see the recent discussion on how the pyramid in England has strengthened the Conference no end in the last couple of decades)