Just Google 'direct action'...Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
There's yer answer!
;)
As for the clubs or fans, just hope as many as possible protest to highlight UEFA's sanctimony and double standards...
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Just Google 'direct action'...Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
There's yer answer!
;)
As for the clubs or fans, just hope as many as possible protest to highlight UEFA's sanctimony and double standards...
The point I'm making is not that the law is the law is the law. If someone wants to break the rules (on someone else's property), that's their choice, but they should at least take responsibility for the consequences of their actions rather than leave someone else up sh*t creek to suffer the results. What's so "crap" about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
But what about that €18,000 Dundalk were fined? Who is or should be responsible for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
As far as I'm concerned they shouldn't pay. But it's up to them. They probably will just get it deducted from prize money...
The club is in no position to pay. It will be deducted from our prize money. I can't see the fine being rescinded either.
I love the non Dundalkfc supporter saying we should do this and that, they should really just get over themselves and give it a rest.
The issue is not the rule, it is that a certain group of supporters flew the flags, where asked to remove them and told of the implications for the club, yet they still did it. They should of been turfed out of OP and told not too come back.
Except that I'd say it about any club whose fans supported the Palestinians...not just Dundalk...
The club have no choice in the matter though. Even if they did have such an option, refusing to pay a fine would only result in much more serious consequences for both the club and, I would imagine, the FAI. Maintaining such a stance would be impractical and unrealistic. So, the question remains really as to who should be held responsible. In my mind, it's pretty simple really; if a group of individuals want to breach stadium and competition regulations, they have the choice to do that - that's up to them - but, at the very least, they should accept moral responsibility for the repercussions of their actions rather than have an innocent other (the club) suffer instead. No LOI club has money to be throwing away at avoidable fines. If the individuals concerned are not prepared to take responsibility for their actions - it's an entirely reasonable expectation to hold of any mature adult to accept responsibility for his actions - and fork out for the €18,000 they've cost their club, then they simply shouldn't have breached the terms of their entry in the first place and should have ceased waving the flags as soon as they were instructed by the stewards to stop. It's as simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It's easy to say that though when you don't have to worry about the repercussions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Here's a quick analogy thought up purely for the sake of argument, as I'm not sure what the actual law on the matter may be, but, say, you have a guest around your house and he starts up a bit of a racket, shouting "Free Palestine!" slogans through a megaphone, waving Palestine flags out your windows and the like. He's got bongo drums and all; the full works. He's kicked up such a racket that the police have been called by your neighbours. You might well agree with your guest's cause, but you tell him to maybe give it a rest for a bit as he's attracting unwanted attention from the authorities. He persists, however, and beats his drums/shouts even louder. As a result, you're landed with a hefty fine for nuisance/disturbance as a result of the noise emanating from your property. Meanwhile, he gets off scot-free. What is your feeling on the matter? Would you pay the fine even though it was his fault or would you refuse to pay the fine and risk further more serious punishment by the law? Would you harbour resentment towards him and feel that he is possibly indebted to you in some way? Would you welcome him back again if it was something he persistently threatened to do?
The principle of legitimate protest is bigger than any repercussions IMO.
Seen fans do similar in the past at Celtic and elsewhere. Sometimes it catches up with them, sometimes it doesn't. Like all protests.
Maxi & ArdeeBhoy outside Oriel for the rest of the season:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxhRhzLIAAAck6A.png
Meaning you'd happily allow people on to your property to protest as outlined above out of principle and would gladly pay any resulting fine caused by their actions?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It doesn't really matter that other fans have done similar. Is it right that a club like Dundalk should suffer the consequences of the protest (ego-trip)? Why embroil the club in something that has nothing to do with them?Quote:
Seen fans do similar in the past at Celtic and elsewhere. Sometimes it catches up with them, sometimes it doesn't. Like all protests.
In essence yeap, if the cause was justified and like most protestors agree, in essence the means too, to make the point.
One small example from yesterday...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...41c3966c98b099
I doubt anybody here disagrees that the cause is just. You just haven't explained what is in it for Dundalk by making themselves martyrs for a cause in a big-money game they're largely uninvited to.
Presumably a warm happy feeling.
They're just a platform. To whom UEFA over-reacted.
If they took the same stance over far more persistent offenders over various fascist/racist symbols/banners, you could say they might have a point.
Or if the same flag wavers were advocating a violent reaction v.Israel (even though they're not and never will be in Europe) or similar, then I could understand some sort of fine then.
It's selective sanctimonious BS which makes you crave every fan at every UEFA game waves a Palestinian flag...
See, that actually would be an effective protest.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
And you haven't answered the question. Why should Dundalk effectively stunt their own growth and reduce their domestic competitiveness to back a group of fans they barely even want there in the first place?
Why shouldn't they...and even if that were true, more fans means more diverse views. Which is generally a good thing.
I just outlined why they shouldn't. Their prize money for reaching that round of the Europa League was around 100k, the same as the prize money they will likely receive for (likely) winning the league this season. 20k is not money they can afford to throw away, nor are any additional fines they can expect to incur if they mount a challenge. You support a club that has the critical mass to mount a campaign of disobedience. Dundalk can't. And before you say anything about LOI closing ranks, I'm a Shamrock Rovers fan - I have no grá at all for Dundalk, but I can see exactly why they wouldn't mount a futile and self-defeating challenge to a rule they likely don't give a **** about to start with.
Like I keep repeating;some things are more important than money. Like an ounce of principle.
Cool, by all means be principled then. Unfortunately, Irish football isn't in a position where clubs can gamble tens of thousands on vague principles because they'll get crushed. If your position is that Dundalk should resign from all UEFA competitions, which is the the end-game of what you propose, that's fair enough, but at least have the honesty to lobby your own club to do the same.
But, as we've seen all over this board, you're all for UEFA's rules once they benefit Celtic and you reserve your "principals" for situations you don't have a skin in.
I would back you 100% if you brought a Palestinian flag to Celtic Park for the next Europa League game. I can only assume that you've already planned to do that, such is your conviction that Dundalk should oppose this fine on all fronts.