Wouldn't Zamora, Kane or O'Connor have had to make such a request twice though if they indeed made two switches each?Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_denilson
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Wouldn't Zamora, Kane or O'Connor have had to make such a request twice though if they indeed made two switches each?Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_denilson
All conjecture obviously, but my reading into it is this. The ruling was brought in for players who've been tied to a nation by playing competitively at underage.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
So requesting a 'change of association' would simply redeem your dual nationality.
Kearns was born eligible for Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, but played competitively for NI, thus tieing him to them. When he requested a 'change of association' it simply brought back his dual nationality.
When he subsequently played for ROI, the 'change of association' came into effect and he was tied to ROI.
Similiarly, Zamora was tied to England, requested a change of association, got his dual nationality back, but then played for England again and is tied again, but this time for good as he has no requests left. But again, all conjecture.
Tony Kane, never played competitively for ROI U21's so never got tied, and O'Connor never even joined an U21 squad.
I mentioned the fact Zamora had played competitively for England at under-21 level to Ó Raghallaigh but he said "the FAI and other source was adamant that it's a once only call".
Just reading around Zamora's apparent switch to Trinidad & Tobago, it appears that Jlloyd Samuel attempted to switch to Trinidad & Tobago from England at the exact same time: http://www.ttgapers.com/News/2009/8/...dad-passports/
However, whilst Zamora pulled out of that squad and attributed this to an injury, Samuel similarly failed to make the El Salvador fixture, but not due to injury. This piece claims he had failed to meet FIFA's registration deadline and so wasn't yet eligible: http://www.bwfc24.co.uk/2009/08/11/j...inidad-tobago/Quote:
English Premier League footballers, Bobby Zamora of Fulham and J’Lloyd Samuel of Bolton Wanderers, have secured Trinidad and Tobago passports, making it highly likely that both will be selected for the Soca Warriors in their important World Cup Qualifying game against El Salvador next week.
As of yesterday, both players are now officially Trinidad and Tobago citizens, and also recognized by FIFA to represent the twin island republic in the seemingly stalled World Cup 2010 campaign. It is expected that Soca Warriors head coach Russel Latapy will certainly call up the England-based duo for their first caps for Trinidad and Tobago.
Soca Warriors manager David Muhammad has confirmed that both players will join the team on Monday with other foreign-based professionals. The 18 man squad is also expected to be named on Monday.
Is it possible then that Zamora had also failed to meet the same registration deadline meaning no switch ever went through as his documentation was never actually processed by FIFA?Quote:
Bolton Wanderers defender Jlloyd Samuel will have to miss out on playing for his country, Trinidad and Tobago as he missed the registration deadline. Trinidad and Tobago currently lie at the bottom of the World Cup CONCACAF qualifying group having gained just 2 points in 5 games.
Samuel was due to join the Soca Warriors when they play El Salvador tomorrow (August 12) at the Hasley Crawford Stadium in the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago’s capital Pot of Spain.
Yourself and O'Raghallaigh have thrown the cat amongst the pidgeons again Danny. If the Zamora case is possible because he never completed the forms, then their are ways to explain all the others with other loopholes.
So I've reverted back to Tony Kane.
Here's what we know.
Tony Kane had played U-18 and U-19 for Northern Ireland but I can't find out if they were competitive.
But he was in their U19 Elite Qualifying Squad in 2006
Tony Kane made his first appearance for ROI U-21s on 18/10/06
Which Don Givens said this about:
The fact that he needed to change association would deem his NI caps competitive.Quote:
Givens said that all the paperwork had been completed and verified with FIFA regarding his change of association, including Kane's formal written request to represent Ireland.
The Statutes as of Sep 2006 were:
Then we had this from Ealing Green 10 days before TK played for NI U-21'sQuote:
Up to his 21st birthday, a player may only once request changing the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches.
Any Player who wishes to exercise this right to change Associations shall submit a written and substantiated request to the FIFA general secretariat. After submitting the request, the Player is no longer qualified to play for his current Association’s team.
The Statutes as of 17/10/06 when TK made his debut for NI U21, had changed to:Quote:
UEFA ASK FAI TO SHUN THEIR FRIENDS IN THE NORTH
Article in today’s Sunday Times states that UEFA asked FAI to omit players until the dispute was sorted out. Claims that this was why Tony Kane was left out of U21s by Don Givens and subsequently opted for NI.
The article goes on "A spokesman for FIFA said on Friday:
"The FIFA legal committee reviewed the question of eligibility of players from the Republic of Ireland to play for Northern Ireland and vice versa during its meeting in mid-August. Following that meeting FIFA requested the FAI and IFA to provide their position on the matter and is currently in consultations with both member associations. At this stage we cannot speculate when a final decision will be taken"
So there is quiet clearly a rule change between the time Kane changed association to the FAI and then played for NI again.Quote:
If a Player has more than one nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality.
Once the player has filed his request, he is not eligible to play for any Association team until his request has been processed.
I'll try to track down, when exactly the change was made and if any circulars went out explaining it at the time.
But judging by all that, my reading of it, is that there was a time that a request for a change of association ruled you out for your old association, but that rule appears to have changed, or at least the wording of it, between 06 and 07. But they'd crucially also taken out the 'only once' part of it. Maybe that's the loophole that allowed Zamora, Kane make the changes?
Good research, although would that change in wording have changed the effect of the rule. I'm not sure it would have or could have. By my reading, the latter text would still limit a player to just one switch to "the Association of another country" (rather than "the Associations of other countries"), in spite of the removal of the "only once" phrase. A player cannot be "administratively" eligible (for want of a better description) to play for two associations at once if already registered with one, so if, as Givens said, Kane was registered with the FAI after having filed a request for change of association, he'd have no longer been eligible to play for the IFA and would presumably have had to file another request to revert back. Or is that too much to assume?
A change in text surely wouldn't retrospectively cancel out any previous switches made by players either. I think the above appears to support geysir's view on matters.
Just reading through that article from the latter regulations again and it indeed mentions "a player may exercise this right only once" in article 15.3(b).
Anyone wanna have a stab at explaining how goalkeeper Danilo Clementino has been eligible to play for Equatorial Guinea since 2006? He's Brazilian-born and appears to be a naturalised citizen of Equatorial Guinea. He doesn't seem to have resided there for even a year, however, never mind five (he played his club football in Brazil prior to 2006), nor is there any suggestion that his parents/grandparents are from Equatorial Guinea. In spite of FIFA having tightened their eligibility criteria in 2004 after Qatar and Togo naturalised Brazilian citizens in similar fashion, his eligibility to play for Equatorial Guinea appears to have been approved two years later.
The Equatoguinean national team happens to be littered with such players, mostly Spanish-born.
Equatorial Guinea was a Spanish colony so I think these Spanish-born players are of Equatoguinean descent probably, but that goalkeeper case looks very suspect seeing as he has continuously played in Brazil so I have no idea how his eligibility was met. Maybe it's a case of the paperwork being filed before the rules were changed or something. What a joke these players are who play for countries that they have no links to.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Edit - Maybe he is of Equatoguinean descent seeing as they describe the Spainish-born players of Equatoguinean descent as being naturalized as well. Although the Brazilian goalie was brought through under that Brazilian coach who was naturalizing players for Togo and then Equatorial Guinea. Who knows.:confused:
Surely it's obvious?
Deep down FIFA don't care...
Bribery within FIFA is unheard of so we so can rule that out before anyone suggests it ......
The English born lads were James Wallace and Gerard Kinsella, who both played with Everton. Wallace, who scored for our u16s in a game against the Czech Rep. went on to represent England while Kinsella seems to have fallen into obscurity. I'm not sure how far out they are in terms of meeting criteria, but I am almost sure that they do not meet the criteria. Either that or they did and were keen to get some international bonuses :confused:.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...rticle&id=1964
Another article on the eligibility issue this time by Ewan McKenna seems to have incurred the wrath of the OWB loyal...
http://eircomsports.eircom.net/News/...rk-lights.aspx
Quote:
It was in March 2003 that John Dallat, the SDLP MLA for East Derry, brought up the issue of ‘God Save the Queen’ before Northern Ireland soccer matches. He said that the song was being exploited by bigots and that it was a deterrent for members of the Catholic community that wished to attend games. In two months’ time, it will be nine years since he raised an obvious and pressing issue, a timeframe in which nothing has changed regarding a song those involved in Northern Irish soccer believe is representative of their territory and people. Yet, it is against this background, that new manager Michael O’Neill has expressed his frustration and unhappiness about players declaring for the Republic.
“I have never hidden behind the fact that I think it is wrong,” O’Neill said at his first official press conference, only a minute later to dodge a question that is very much entwined with his grievance. “The situation around the anthem is not something I have given any consideration to,” he added. “That’s a decision for other people; my focus is on building a competitive and fully inclusive international team.” But there, in just a few words, he managed to talk out of both sides of his mouth simultaneously.
Being from Portadown, of course O’Neill understands the exclusion that exists in Northern Ireland soccer circles and exactly why some decent players, that he would have chosen, aren’t available to him. And of course he was always going to play the political game so early into his new job. But therein lies the rub. It’s about time the Irish Football Association and everyone connected with them stopped trying to play that political game and tried to develop something for all, and not just the some who choose to sing the British national anthem with interjections of ‘No Surrender’ in front of a Union Jack.
It has been James McClean’s form with Sunderland that has started this latest debate, as the winger from Derry played under-21 with Northern Ireland but more recently switched allegiances. But who could possibly blame him? Of course his move was about more than just a song but anyone who thinks it was to do with playing with a better team clearly hasn’t experienced life in nationalist estates. Instead his move was helped along because of an unwillingness to adapt and incorporate in Northern Irish soccer. Indeed if anything summed up that rigid stance, it was this misfiring paragraph printed in the Belfast Telegraph.
“The campaign has made Windsor Park – in spite of its name, the history of Linfield as a Protestant-dominated club, the playing of God Save The Queen at internationals and the flag-bedecked Village area – a less-unwelcoming place for Catholics.” And there you have it. For all that the IFA have tried to do in terms of supporters’ associations and rhetoric, they are unwilling to move on the major issues. Instead, they’ve laid down new carpet without bothering to fix the leak in the roof.
Already, nationalists consider themselves to be Irish, not British, and the fact there are two teams on the island is, in terms of basic facts, because of a British presence here. So ask anyone on the Derry estates – where McClean and another Republic recruit Darron Gibson grew up – where they come from and it will become obvious why they have chosen the Republic of Ireland. Remember, these are players who grew up in a different era. Whatever about life away from sport, any nationalist kid who went to Windsor Park in the 1980s or ’90s will have decided there and then where their future’s lay courtesy of UDA flags, ‘The Billy Boys’ and even a refusal on one visit of the Republic of Ireland to play ‘Amhrann na bhFiann’ because it might upset the locals.
But how much have things changed? Of course there have been improvements and campaigns run by the IFA but just last year a game between supporters of the Republic and the North had to be called off because of security fears surrounded the latter group. A leaked email from a Police Service of Northern Ireland officer spoke of the “unfortunate anti-social/sectarian behaviour of a number of our fans at the Scotland game” which had taken place in Dublin last February. But actual incidents aside, there is a mindset amongst many in Northern Irish soccer that is equally troubling and stagnant.
Few seem to see that it is progressive that on an island of duel citizenship, players from Northern Ireland now have a choice. (And remember, this would have worked both ways only for the IFA to turn down an FAI proposal because they saw it purely as a numbers game rather than an acceptance of background and culture.) That members of the IFA want compensation for those who move shows up their draconian side. But nether cent nor penny seems to have dropped because not all that long ago a representative of the Northern Irish supporters’ association went on Ulster radio and talked about players who declare for "the other country" and when called up on his remarks refused to alter his wording.
Some may talk of bigotry in the GAA as a defence but that is a cultural organisation that has never claimed to represent both sides of a community, in the same way that Ulster-Scots events aren’t meant for all. And some may talk about the fact that the likes of McClean played underage with the North but ignore the fact that kids don’t always have a choice, travel is an issue, being recognised by a separate association is very difficult as a youth and there isn’t that same atmosphere of anger and unease at underage games as there is when Windsor Park internationals are in full swing.
All in all, anyone in Northern Irish soccer who has a problem with players declaring for the Republic are making the same mistake as those that have gone before and making sure that another generation of nationalist children will do just the same and make the switch. If those running Northern Irish soccer can’t see why it’s happening, then they are blind to the problem of exclusion that has been created. And therefore, they can never properly address it and the cycle will happen all over again.
Hmm, seems a fair summary to me...
IFA have serious fight on their hands to keep young stars.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4782/89907350.jpgQuote:
So in a long way around I ask myself how do the born and bred Irishmen feel about the likes of McLean, Duffy and Kearns making their way into the Irish senior ranks. If I was indeed in their shoes I would be incredibly annoyed and frustrated.
Heh, yer man obviously doesn't know how a sizeable proportion of the North's population feel about their national identity...
Or noticed the existence of the GFA, CAS ruling et al.
:rolleyes:
Your man Sam Gamble is a raving luny, if his tweets are anything to go by.
How on earth he earned a degree with ****-poor constructions like this I'll never know.Quote:
As a qualified journalist following four years studying Journalism at the University of Stirling
I've frequently dissected pieces on the eligibility issue point-by-point here, but that one's already a train-wreck.
Lifted this from OWC:
I also tackled Sam Gamble about his piece in Twitter. He wasn't keen on a debate, resorted to insults and blocked me.Quote:
According to the the Sunday Times today Michael O'Neill phoned Martin ONeill to ask him to have a word with McClean. Martin did so but McClean refused to change his mind.
Quote from Martin O'Neill:
"I spoke to James and he had made up his mind about it. That really would be the end of it......Players have that choice now. I'm not sure on what grounds. They used to say that Jack Charlton picked up players because they had a pint in Dublin but it is a personal choice"
He goes on to say he thinks McClean will have difficuly getting into the RoI side but he is not in a position to be able to dissuade the turd from defecting.
Ah yes... a turd... better than that douche Sammy Clingan...