Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by geysir

The "Single Judge"? - God? :)

Fifa clear Wigan's Victor Moses to play for Nigeria

God on earth, the BBC?
Fifa clear Moses to play for Nigeria

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In short the Nigeria FA tested the eligibility of Moses which FIFA confirmed. Nothing more or less.

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Originally Posted by geysir

There is nothing to indicate that Kearns could not revert in the event of him not being capped by the FAI.

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Except the acknowledgement by Kearns that the switch is irreversible.

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Originally Posted by geysir

The onus is on you to find out the difference between Zamora and Kearns, I can't find any.

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See above.

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Originally Posted by geysir

My assumptions are made on all known evidence, you are making an assumption based on an assumption that there could be some hidden unrevealed reason why Zamora did not or could not play for T&T and therefore could play for England at a later stage.
Until FIFA state otherwise or you can find ONE case example, the onus is on you to find a rational reasons, considering that there is absolutely zilch about any glitch on Zamora's eligibility to play for T&T, endorsed by FIFA.

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I refer you to the Daniel Kearns case, where the transfer process is clearly documented and mapped out for you.

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Originally Posted by geysir

As I wrote in the first pages of this thread, I will keep an open mind and be prepared to change my opinion should one teeny weeny piece of concrete evidence appears.

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You're entitled to your opinion. I'll entertain it when you provide hard evidence for your assumptions.

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

There is a small bit of text at the end of a wiki article which might have some effect too, but I can't find it mentioned anywhere but in the wiki article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_eligibility_rules

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No way that is correct. It does suggest, however, that only playing in a competitive fixture effects a change.

More on Zahavi from Wiki:

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Zahavi has represented Portugal at various youth levels but has not been called into the senior team. Because he played in an official UEFA U17 qualifying tournament for Portugal, he is currently tied to their national team under FIFA eligibility rules. However, since he is also eligible to play for Israel or the United States, he can request a one-time only switch with FIFA.

Zahavi was called up to the United States U-20's team in November 2010 for the Torneo de las Americas.

On 20 February 2011, Zahavi was called in for his first Israel U-21 camp. Three days later Zahavi played in a friendly with the under-21 side against FC Arsenal Kyiv. In March 2011, Zahavi was brought in for another training camp. On 17 March 2011 Zahavi was named to the under-21 side for a tournament in Austria. Zahavi made his debut for the side in a friendly against Georgia on 23 March 2011. Zahavi scored his first goal for the under-21 side in a friendly against Romania on 26 March 2011 in Austria. Zahavi floated the ball over the Romanian goalkeeper from 35 metres out after exchanging passes with Nes Zamir.

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Zahavi has represented only Portugal in official FIFA competition.

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Originally Posted by geysir

That interpretation as it stands now, according to all known evidence, is that a player has to be capped by his new association to effect the change, using up his one choice to change associations.

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Capped competitively, you mean? :)

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Originally Posted by ifk101

In short the Nigeria FA tested the eligibility of Moses which FIFA confirmed. Nothing more or less.

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Not quite, it is stronger than testing the FIFA water.
Nigeria Football Association (NFF) applied for a switch to make them eligible for their country of birth.
"Fifa has finally cleared Foluwashola Ameobi and Victor Moses to play for Nigeria at international level," NFF spokesman Ademola Olajire said.
"Fifa declared that both players have been cleared based on the entire documentation remitted by the NFF."

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Except the acknowledgement by Kearns that the switch is irreversible.

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Yes but the rational assumption is that Zamora had to follow the same track as Kearns as he had similar eligibility circumstances to Kearns.
The same track means the player has to acknowledges the change is irreversible.
And T&T selected Zamora (3 times) after they received clearance from FIFA. They had previously been unable to select Zamora because FIFA had not cleared him, declaring him ineligible.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Except the acknowledgement by Kearns that the switch is irreversible.

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But that depends on what effects the switch, surely. It doesn't necessarily mean that once a player has made the request, he cannot go back on that.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Capped competitively, you mean? :)

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I have some doubts on that one.
We do know now for sure that player has to be capped competitively at senior level before being bound to that association, making him ineligible for a switch. But it might well be the case that being capped at senior A friendly binds the player to his new association.
These are dark unknown waters, so I wouldn't rush in without poking my stick first.

Okay, disregarding the exact dates,
FIFA Statutes used to say

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4

Any Player who wishes to exercise this right to change Associations shall submit a written and substantiated request to the FIFA general secretariat. After submitting the request, the Player is no longer qualified to play for his current Association’s team. The Players’ Status Committee shall decide on the request. The committee’s decision may be brought before the Appeal Committee. The Regulations for the Status and Transfer of Players contain more detailed provisions.

5

Any Players who have already had their 21st birthday at the time of implementation of these provisions and who fulfil the requirements in par. 3 (a) are also entitled to submit such a request to change Associations. This entitlement will expire definitively twelve months after implementation of this provision.

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and Current FIFA Statutes say

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f a Player has more than one nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality.

Any Player who has the right to change Associations in accordance with par. 1 and 2 above shall submit a written, substantiated request to the FIFA general secretariat. The Players’ Status Committee shall decide on the request. The procedure will be in accordance with the Rules Governing the Procedures of the Players’ Status Committee and the Dispute Resolution Chamber. Once the player has filed his request, he is not eligible to play for any Association team until his request has been processed.

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So are we to assume that by removing the emboldened text from the old statutes, the request to change association no longer disqualifies you? This is what I would take from it, and maybe the FAI or whoever is advising Kearns/McClean isn't aware that it has been removed from the statutes?

Okay, so based on Zahavi, is it possible that McClean could play for us in a friendly without FIFA approval?
i.e
Once a player is tied to an association by playing competitively (Zamora, Kearns, McClean, Zahavi etc),
they must make a formal request (which is irreversible?) if they wish to play competitively for another association.

Because Zahavi is currently cap-tied to Portugal due to appearing once with the Under-17s in UEFA qualifiers in 2007. Zahavi, though, is eligible to make a one-time FIFA switch to play for both the United States and Israel, and has suited up for both in friendlies, although at U-20 and U-21 levels respectively. Maybe it's different at Senior level.

Interestingly, both Zamora's caps have been in friendlies (though he was on an unused sub in a qualifier)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

But that depends on what effects the switch, surely. It doesn't necessarily mean that once a player has made the request, he cannot go back on that.

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Requesting a transfer doesn't tie a player as FIFA must determine the player's eligibility to switch. In the case of Kearns he formally applied to FIFA to which FIFA determined his eligibility to switch. Once FIFA completed and approved his eligibility, Kearns was subsequently required to confirm his transfer request and acknowledge to FIFA that in doing so the transfer was irreversible.

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

Okay, so based on Zahavi, is it possible that McClean could play for us in a friendly without FIFA approval?
i.e
Once a player is tied to an association by playing competitively (Zamora, Kearns, McClean, Zahavi etc),
they must make a formal request (which is irreversible?) if they wish to play competitively for another association.

Because Zahavi is currently cap-tied to Portugal due to appearing once with the Under-17s in UEFA qualifiers in 2007. Zahavi, though, is eligible to make a one-time FIFA switch to play for both the United States and Israel, and has suited up for both in friendlies, although at U-20 and U-21 levels respectively. Maybe it's different at Senior level.

Interestingly, both Zamora's caps have been in friendlies (though he was on an unused sub in a qualifier)

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Afaiu some/most friendly internationals at underage don't need FIFA approval, those type of games are informal arrangements between the 2 associations.
But a senior A friendly has to be FIFA approved and follow FIFA rules of officialdom etc.
so Zamora would have to be eligible and already cleared to play in a senior A friendly.

So if you adjust your question to,
could McClean, who has been capped competitively for the IFA at competitive level, have played in an unofficial international underage friendly for the FAI?
Ask Danny :) but I suspect McClean could have.

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Originally Posted by geysir

So if you adjust your question to,
could McClean, who has been capped competitively for the IFA at competitive level, have played in an unofficial international underage friendly for the FAI?
Ask Danny :) but I suspect McClean could have.

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I suspect the same. Barry Maguire represented us at under-16 level before going on to represent Holland at under-age level. In spite of this, he's still eligible to play for us as the under-16 game for us would not have been considered an official/competitive fixture. That's not to say I'm sure as to whether or not the games he played for Holland were deemed competitive either. Anyhow, Zahavi's international career to date appears to prove this. He's been able to line out for Israel and the US whilst being officially tied to Portugal.

Weren't there also two England-born players with Irish-sounding names who represented us at under-age level before it later transpired they weren't even eligible to play for us? Names escape me at the minute.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Yes you are assuming and you haven't provided conclusive evidence to support your assumption. In the case of Daniel Kearns, a specific process of events and procedures is detailed with dates. If you can find similar conclusive and specific primary sourced information with regards to Zamora, I'll entertain your assumption on the matter.

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I never claimed conclusive, not at any time. Never, never, never! :)
I have claimed that there is a consistent tissue of circumstantial evidence, (some strong) and nothing exists to contradict the circumstances.
You have presented an assumption about a document and an assumption what the meaning of the document is, that is outlined in the Daniel Kearns case.

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Requesting a transfer doesn't tie a player as FIFA must determine the player's eligibility to switch.

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Well, are you not contradicting article 18? :)
'and onlyonce, request to change the Association for which he is eligible toplay international matches to the Association of another country ofwhich he holds nationality,'

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Originally Posted by geysir

I have some doubts on that one.
We do know now for sure that player has to be capped competitively at senior level before being bound to that association, making him ineligible for a switch. But it might well be the case that being capped at senior A friendly binds the player to his new association.
These are dark unknown waters, so I wouldn't rush in without poking my stick first.

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Senior friendlies didn't tie Alex Bruce, Edgar Castillo or Jermaine Jones to their original associations so is there reason to think that such fixtures might tie a player to a second association? I wouldn't have thought so, but I suppose we can't really say either way without confirmation.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Requesting a transfer doesn't tie a player as FIFA must determine the player's eligibility to switch. In the case of Kearns he formally applied to FIFA to which FIFA determined his eligibility to switch. Once FIFA completed and approved his eligibility, Kearns was subsequently required to confirm his transfer request and acknowledge to FIFA that in doing so the transfer was irreversible.

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But can we be sure from the info available to us that confirming the transfer request is what effects the switch? I don't think we can be.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Senior friendlies didn't tie Alex Bruce, Edgar Castillo or Jermaine Jones to their original associations so is there reason to think that such fixtures might tie a player to a second association? I wouldn't have thought so, but I suppose we can't really say either way without confirmation.

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A senior friendly for the FAI doesn't prohibit a player like Bruce from switching from the FAI to the IFA.
Bruce still had the option of a switch after he played those games in the USA.

It's just a question of, does a senior A friendly for the IFA seal the switch to the IFA or does it have to be a senior competitive game?

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Originally Posted by geysir

I never claimed conclusive, not at any time. Never, never, never! :)

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Yes, no conclusive evidence exists to back your asssumption.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I have claimed that there is a consistent tissue of circumstantial evidence, (some strong) and nothing exists to contradict the circumstances.

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Nothing conclusive.

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Originally Posted by geysir

You have presented an assumption about a document and an assumption what the meaning of the document is, that is outlined in the Daniel Kearns case.

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I've assumed what's in the Daniel Kearns ruling?

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

But can we be sure from the info available to us that confirming the transfer request is what effects the switch? I don't think we can be.

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Why not?

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Why not?

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There are 3 parts to a 'Change of Association'
1. A certificate by the relevant authorities (e.g a Passport)
2. A list of all the games that the player has played in submitted by his old association (e.g from the IFA)
3. A written request signed by the player explaining his motives.

All of these must be sent in by the association the player wishes to represent i.e the FAI.

So while Kearns acknowledged that a such a change would be irreversible on the 2/11/09, the actual formal request wasn't submitted until the 3/11/09 and administritive requirements fulfilled on the 21/12/09.

Even then that just says the administritive requirements are fulfilled, it doesn't say the change has taken effect yet.

I'm beginning to side with Geysir on this and believe that a full change won't come into effect until Kearns plays a full international.

Although he has used up his 1 request for a change, so couldn't play for a 3rd country, were he eligible.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Why not?

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This is all we have from which to draw conclusions:

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On 11 August 2009, Mr Kearns filed an application before FIFA for a change of association team, from the IFA to the FAI. On 2 November 2009, he confirmed to FIFA his request, acknowledging the fact that such a change would be irreversible.

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That doesn't tell us what effects a switch.

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

Although he has used up his 1 request for a change, so couldn't play for a 3rd country, were he eligible.

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I don't think it'd be correct to assume that. A switch is a switch whether it would be to an association for whom a player played formerly or a completely new third association for whom he's also eligible, surely?

For the record, has Kearns yet to play in a competitive under-age fixture for us?

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I don't think it'd be correct to assume that. A switch is a switch whether it would be to an association for whom a player played formerly or a completely new third association for whom he's also eligible, surely?

For the record, has Kearns yet to play in a competitive under-age fixture for us?

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Yes Kearns has played competitively, although I'd say he would of been the last people to defect given what he went through.

Why I'm assuming he's used up his request, is because the rules say you are only allowed one 'request', not one 'change of association'.

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If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the association of another country of which he holds nationality.

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