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Yeah, don't remember any comments to that extent alright. (Even less so after the Serbia draw).Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Some people claimed it was a draw against the world number 1 - even though it clearly wasn't - but even then they were just claiming it was a good result, not a once in a generation performance. And I suppose it was a good performance (well, the first half-hour aside, when we couldn't get hold of the ball), but no more than that.
I think Paul O Shea makes a good point, if I'm understanding him correctly. There are some supporters who backed Stephen Kenny because he was a LOI manager etc but some backed the idealism of what they thought he was bringing and have found it hard to face up to the reality that it has failed. It's not Stephen Kenny specifically, it's wanting Ireland to play in a certain way.
These same supporters would have been vocal critics of previous managers, Trap, O Neill and McCarthy. Despite qualifying for tournaments or attaining some very good results, these managers played 'caveman football' which some of these supporters looked down on. The superiority complex I think Paul O Shea was referring to is those who think only 'proper football' should be played.
Wanting a manager who plays 'proper football' to succeed has been a desperate need for these people. You can see that with the irrational defence of Kenny. They want him/his ideals to work so they can be vindicated. If it doesn't, then they might have to face that some of our previous managers may have had some merit in how they set up our teams.
Exactly my point BS. Like my junior cert Geography teacher said after he isolated the smartest student to the top of the class in our first day in first year " I only need one A to prove I've taught the text". Maith an fear!
There should be a desire for us to play better football (I dont think its a "proper football" snobby thing). For the reasons i outlined a page or two ago, relentlessly giving away the ball is not viable. Its ultimately a mug's game, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
I felt that MON found a reasonable enough balance (Euro16 was great) with a sometimes overly cautious approach and, personally, was fine for Mick to see out the remainder of his contract (as an aside, it was not Kenny's fault that he was announced as the successor after 2 years of Mick and then appointed early) even though some of our performances stank the place out. (edit: I wasnt sad to see Mick go) My biggest grievance was with Trap who set us back significantly, mentally, and convinced our fans and our players that they weren't good enough to do better or play better.
If that was his point why didn’t he just say it? All I still see is straw men and false representations though. What I hate here is nonsense like comparing Portugal away to Russia away. Dunne and Given earned us a miracle result. We barely got out of our own half in Russia. In Portugal we had good chances on the break and a very credible penalty claim turned down. We were winning until injury time or thereabouts. At the very least it was the kind of organised and gutsy performance we’ve been praising Australia for against Argentina.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
And the exaggeration of the reception of the Belgian result is just pure revisionist claptrap - “once in a generation result” my hole.
And where is the irrational support for Kenny? The best he is getting at the moment is qualified support or indifference, amid a huge amount of frustration.
I went back over the first 30 or 40 pages of this thread at work earlier. Lots of doubts were expressed even 2 years ago by those who’d be more supportive here. You yourself were citing mitigants such as his better players not getting game time at their clubs and were saying that despite the bad start we needed more time to take a view. elatedscum listed some freak occurrences in the first part of his tenure.
I’m tiring of the confrontational nature of the discussion and would be really happy to hold my hands up if I’ve said anything that can be shown to be out of line or just plain wrong.
My simple view is that the terrible start had mitigants - I mean the whole **** up about players not sitting in the right plane seats during Covid really set the tone for the first 10 games or so. I was happy for Kenny to be given more time than you’d usually grant a manager because of what he was trying to do and with the personnel he was trying to do it with. After 30 games I’ve probably given up on expecting things to get better rather than worse but I don’t think it was unreasonable to think they might after, say, 20 games. I’ve said I think his broad philosophy is right but I’m indifferent as to who continues the transition so that just doesn’t square with irrationally supporting Kenny to vindicate a view on how we should play the game.
I was also critical of many of the things he did, who he selected, who he didn’t. If I was too patient then mea culpa but I really wanted Ireland to move beyond the dark ages and play better football. Not for playing better football for its own sake but because as Stu said, it improves your chances. I also wanted more self belief in who we are and what we can do. I’ve said several times that I’m not wedded to Kenny but I do want to see us play the type of football that virtually all the planet plays now. This isn’t a superiority complex at all, it’s a belief / opinion that that’s what’s needed the way the game has evolved and how it’s refereed. And for some spells in Kenny’s tenure I thought that might be where we were heading. For a start, I love how Josh Cullen has the courage to show for the ball deep and try to develop play. It’s a long time since we’ve tried to do anything like that. Ive loved how the likes of Collins and Omobamidele have looked so good so early in their careers. Obafemi and at times Ogbene have been exciting. Knight looks like he has something really good about him. Some of the goals we scored in the last 18 months have been really good.
Trap and MON ran out of ideas and it was dreadful once their methods stopped working, and it was only then that I felt their time was up. But I didn't agree with Trap's view that we couldn't be more ambitious. I hated the belligerent tone MON took when results stopped coming and I hated hearing how he took no part in training and how Keane was getting into arguments with players. Doc clearly hated MON. MON's NL effort was awful, so again, I was glad to see him go. Mick Season 2 was good in parts, bad in parts. I wasn’t calling for him to go but I wasn’t too unhappy either.
I just think the rest of the world was leaving us behind, the common denominator being methods that were no longer working for us being the "old school" nature of previous managers.
how are we re-writing that portugal 2-1 + 1-1 draw after that game tonight then
This is what happens when you drop Ronaldo
Why are we talking about the Portugal or Serbia games? We weren't competing with them. Azerbaijan only lost to Portugal 1-0 and Serbia had to get a late winner to win 2-1. Luxembourg took the lead against Portugal and only lost to Serbia by a goal. They also got beatings like we did. That's who we were competing with in the group. It was a battle to see who finishes bottom while Serbia and Portugal battled it out at the top way ahead of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I think you're getting confused somewhat in thinking that every comment is directed at posters here. You're getting very defensive. The irrational support included people singing Kenny's name while losing to Luxembourg, trying to claim he was doing a good job while having one of the worst records in our history, using records of other managers to back up Kenny and so on.
We all wanted Kenny to do well but it really shouldn't have taken people so long to realise he was a dud and not capable at this level. The stuff people are criticising him for after the Malta game were evident a long time ago. Building for the future has always been secondary to his own self preservation.
I agree that trying a different approach was called for, that's why I'm so disappointed and quite angry at this stage that it has been wasted on an incompetent manager. 2 years wasted so far and it looks like it will be 4 by the time he's gone. At that stage things could be so desperate that we'll get a big Sam type appointment. Like, we're still having these conversations with having to ignore that the only slight up points in his reign have occured under the tutelage of coaches who've now departed.
Previous managers all had their bad points but they get demonised far more than they deserve. When their methods stopped working, they were removed. Kenny's methods have never worked. It's time people stopped making excuses for him. For some of us that time was a long time ago but as pointed out, others would have to admit they got things wrong to accept that he's finished. So they're reluctant to call for him to go.
Just a few general observations. While talking about a change of style and a need to play modern football, I don't think anyone was truly looking for us to be dominating possession in games against top tier sides, it's never likely to happen. The frustration with the style of play had come from successive managers who seemed to have convinced our entire squad that it was impossible for them to complete three consecutive passes, and it wasn't just agains top teams, it was against below averge and poor teams too. That approach was never going to be sustainable or have a future. Other international teams have improved so much technically, that just giving them back the ball was making it more and more difficult to be competitive, just putting them under pressure doens't work anymore, teams won't cough up the ball easily, so then you run your team into the ground chasing shadows and have nothing left by the end of games.
In the early stages, Kenny probably tried to go too far in the other direction, with always playing out from the back and taking risks that were getting punished. There's an argument to be made that it was needed in order to show the players that they could play that way, flaws and all. We then saw a bit more adaptation and some better results as the formation was tweaked and the need to sometimes just get the ball up the field quickly was acknowledged. Unfortunately, for every step forward there seems to be a step back close behind. I highlighted some of Kenny's faults before he got the job, not great on set pieces, teams vulnerable to counter attacks, slow to change things in game and the issues with an experienced Rovers squad not respecting him. Many of those issues have followed him to the senior team and as pressure has come on they've been magnified. Kenny's ace card was always going to be his under 21 side coming up with him and in particularly his forwards. The big tragedy for Kenny and for Ireland is that Idah has been an injury nightmare, Connolly seems to have self destructed and while Parrot and Obafemi have shown flashes, both have been hampered by injury and possibly attitude at time. We've never replaced Robbie Keane, and until one of those lads, or Evan Ferguson or anyone else comes through it looks like we're going to struggle to score goals. The statistics (I know, I know), have generally pointed to Kenny's team creating plenty of chances to be winning more games, but far too often not taking chances has left us drawing or losing.
The pressure on his shoulders has certainly seen the willingness to bring through more young players wane. I think we were all disappointed with how conservative the selection was for Norway and Malta. There's the counter argument that he's already capped so many players, that he needs to have some consistency going into the qualifiers. Is Mark Sykes really the answer to any of the problems in the current squad? Is Evan Ferguson even close to being ready for international football? There's an argument that neither is more than about 6th choice in their position, so barring an injury crisis, they won't be near a start in the qualifiers. Does he learn anything for giving Hendrick more time? No, but he does keep a senior squad player happy and involved. He has to try and keep the senior players on board, if he loses the likes of McClean, Hendrick, Coleman, then he has nowhere to go. Dropping Duffy probably had to happen, but that's probably already upset the apple cart a little bit, going further and he risks losing what support he might have left. Do we really have the luxury of dropping someone playing regularly at the level Hendrick is? Not forgetting that after he initially broke back into the team for Kenny he put in some solid performances.
Overall, there's no doubt Kenny has been a disappointment. I don't think there's any chance he's being sacked before the qualifiers, so I'll continue to cling onto the glimmer of hope that everything clicks, and the results suddenly follow. Unless a new manager unearths a striker or a world class midfielder, I find it hard to see a major change happening in the next two years. We're stuck in this transition phase now, with the older generation hitting retirement and a bunch of players under 23 who are showing some promise but haven't managed to set the world alight at club level yet.
I’m not sure I did mention Serbia! I mentioned Portugal in reference to a ridiculous comparison above and because it was generally being discussed. Context is that I think Kenny and the team deserved quite a bit of credit for that performance, and probably the home performance too. It was the kind of performance that kept a lot of people on board and I think that belittling the performance is too subjective, using it to only downplay any credit the manager might deserve. Unfortunately as we all know, good performances haven’t been consistent, but I do think they’ve been there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Hang on, it looks like you’re the one talking these teams up now :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Largely fair. I think it’s within a manager’s gift to appoint a good head coach. Big Sam, Jesus…!Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Recently for sure. Always, I don't think so, but as the pressure increased he took fewer risks. And Idah, Connolly were outside of his control. If he was acting in self preservation at home to Azerbaijan, for example I don't think he'd have gone with Idah, Connolly and Parrott. Overall I think it's been inconsistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
OK, it felt to me you were getting at posters here rather than the wider public. One or two others were though.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
I’m not sure that’s true. I think they got credit when it was due and criticism when it was deserved. And Martin O’Neill could have capped Declan Rice. Demonisation isn’t enough!Quote:
Originally Posted by BOOMSHAKALAKA
Just on criticism/demonisation of managers, although there is of course variation within any community, the Foot.ie community tends to show a lot more loyalty to, or faith in managers, or, at least, takes a lot longer to criticise/demonise, than other online communities.
It's something I very clearly noticed with Trap and then MON. By and large, foot.ie posters were among the last to say that enough was enough.
That's cos we're sound and realisticQuote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Successful qualifications were a factor there for sure. It bought both men a lot more patience than they arguably deserved.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Tbf if a manager gets Ireland to qualify for the WC or Euros, don't they deserve that patience? What more can we really ask for?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
Trap and MON's styles of play were always fairly negative and primitive, but it only really became an issue when it completely stopped working. We didn't mind much when we hoofed our way to Euro 2012 or 2016.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...-41024300.html
I see Spain have promoted a successful underage coach to their senior team. That'll be interesting :) Is there a ball.es?
Yet another international manager sending their CV to the FAI? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
https://www.skysports.com/amp/footba...-year-contractQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I see Northern Ireland have reappointed an O’Neill ,I wonder if we shou….never mind…….!!!!!
Enrique, Martinez...Quote:
Originally Posted by Demesne Lad
In 5 years time we'll have 85% possession in every game and be unable to muster a shot on goal.
Still, we're already at Spain's levels of penalty shoot-out incompetence.
Spain's World Cup penalty record is so bad that the only team they've beaten on penalties at the World Cup this century is Ireland.
In fairness, they did win on penalties in three of the last four Euros. Their full (senior) record is here - won 6, lost 6.