I hope he didn't take two years to explain himself to them like procrastinating James here!Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
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I hope he didn't take two years to explain himself to them like procrastinating James here!Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
1. As others say above, the broader issue here in England is increasing obsession with the Military, to the point where it's become a fetish. Traecable back to the start of the Afghan- Iraqi wars, I think. Maybe a sign we're ever more in thrall to America?
2. Few could deny McClean has nerve- he could easily have just followed the crowd of other Irish, German, Japanese, Arab players etc. etc. in English football.
3. Obviously he didn't write the letter, the test is whether he really believes the sentiments. If so, and he doesn't return to the childish comments on social media, great.
4. The comments Ritchie Sadleir mentioned (I've had similar myself at English grounds), while obviously unpleasant, are neither imbecilic nor irrational. There was a War of sorts for nearly 30 years; you can't just expect everyone to agree that the Irish Republic and its self-styled Army had nowt to do with each other.
As per 1 above this is becoming increasingly acute in rugby where England /RFU have the army abseiling from the stands at games, the army giving out the match ball, the very close association with a Help for Heroes (in itself, benign) and then the recent use of the Victoria Cross in the actual team kit. As if England was the only (rugby) country to have an army that lost lives or fought in these big wars.
how is it obvious?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Anytime i have seen him interviewed he seems quite level headed and articulate. Even if it was at least influenced by others it was still issued under his name so he must approve with any input others provided.
To be fair, that had all the hallmarks of a PR agent, albeit one paid to articulate what James views are.
Not least the fact that Millwall have a lo of supporters with Irish heritage as well, but from what I have heard they have moved on to disliking people with brown skin these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
http://youtu.be/SNqA9XDCWDQ
Why be a lemming though? He believed in something and stood up to undue social pressure. He should be proud of himself for that. For others, the symbol may not possess the same connotations as it does for James. If others want to wear one or don't have the care or guts to make a stand, that's their call and no indictment of James. As an aside, I think it was a good thing in a general societal sense as it at least demonstrated that not everyone is prepared to passively sleepwalk into the Americanised military-obsessed society over which you express anxiety in your first point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Even if he didn't write the letter, why wouldn't be believe the sentiments of his statement? He's not on Twitter any more, but I don't think prior comments he might have made necessarily contradicted his statement anyway.Quote:
3. Obviously he didn't write the letter, the test is whether he really believes the sentiments. If so, and he doesn't return to the childish comments on social media, great.
That spelling is worse than a Jeff Stelling pronunciation!Quote:
4. The comments Ritchie Sadleir mentioned (I've had similar myself at English grounds), while obviously unpleasant, are neither imbecilic nor irrational. There was a War of sorts for nearly 30 years; you can't just expect everyone to agree that the Irish Republic and its self-styled Army had nowt to do with each other.
When you were getting called similar to an "IRA c*nt", you didn't think those slinging it at you were being ridiculous, or unduly presumptuous at the very least?
What's the implication of your final statement there exactly? That the Irish state and the IRA were intertwined, and, as a consequence, that all Irish citizens or anyone with a connection to Ireland should reasonably and rationally have expected legitimate cries of "IRA c*nt" to be shouted in their direction? Who could blame those doing the shouting? The recipients of the abuse were Irish, after all... No way. That's simply validating ill-informed buffoonery.
Re the answers to my points above:
2 To clarify, I meant McClean's nerve positively: I admire it, actually.
3 Obvious that he didn't write the letter, because a) it was in the style of a PR statement, and b) I've seen enough of his social media posts to distinguish them from a)
4 My suggestion was pretty explicit. The IRA and wider Irish state/ nation/ whatever were linked (not intertwined) during the Troubles by a minority of people in Britain, whether because of personal involvement, crude prejudice, ignorance or what you rather sneeringly call buffoonery. For the better-informed, factors like the refusal to extradite suspects or even Articles 2 and 3 may have played a part.
Apologies to RS for that typo. I used to work with a namesake of his ;)
As regards 3, I've made this point already but I'll make it again and respond to this. Of course the letter had to be written by a professional because the wording of it had to be so precise to withstand the intentional misinterpretation of anything James would utter on this matter. There are numerous posters on this forum who are clearly eloquent in their use of English and wonderfully expressive regarding their opinions (I don't intend to insult anyone by stating this) that would really struggle to write a letter like this without it being torn to shreds subsequently by some similarly eloquent and expressive posters. This McClean letter was clearly forged by a professional because the only critcism that those willing to criticise McClean (like yourself) are able to level at it is that very point; it was written by a professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
In relation to 4, this is 1997 we're talking about. This is an 18 year-old teenager employed by their own club. What's not imbecilic or irrational about that kind of slur on a teenager going to a football game?
Also, the use of the wording "self-styled"? I know you're referring to the Irish Republican Army and the IRA being "linked", but being "self-styled" seems to infer that some of their tactics/style would be supported by a large portion of Irish people (including Richie Sadlier? I doubt it).
Er, I didn't criticise it (the letter) at all. I said it would be "great" if he really agreed with the sentiments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
The slur probably wasn't aimed at him personally. Innocent guy, wrong place, wrong time.Quote:
What's not imbecilic or irrational about that kind of slur on a teenager going to a football game?
The Provos deliberately represented themselves as the authentic voice of the Republic: blame them for the link.Quote:
Also, the use of the wording "self-styled"? I know you're referring to the Irish Republican Army and the IRA being "linked", but being "self-styled" seems to infer that some of their tactics/style would be supported by a large portion of Irish people (including Richie Sadlier? I doubt it)
Do you seriously think the IRA didn't have widespread support? Look at their election results.
He signed his name to it, sent it to Dave Whelan and agreed it be made public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
That's a tough one now, I must say. What political party do you refer to? I don't see Sinn Fein receiving 'widespread support'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
They certainly didn't during The Troubles, which is when the IRA actually existed. I think GR is stopping to a low level here, and not really in keeping with his usual style of comment.
keep it on James' letter lads, any further off topic posts will be moved to the Current Affairs forum
Sure. As I suggested, the test is whether his future comments match the letter or his rather different past comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Do past comments contradict the contents of the letter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
... And wrong nationality, it would seem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Sadlier's Irishness wasn't the personal feature with which they were taking issue? How could it not be personal?
A Unionist pedant. How unusual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Of course, GR is right. A young 18 year old learning his trade deserves to be intimidated because he happened to be born in a certain part of the World
He's not saying he deserved to be intimidated, Fixer. He's saying it's understandable that a grown man would feel like that as it's virtually impossible for anybody to distinguish between a spotty teenager from Ballinteer and the Irish Republican Army.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Of course, how remiss of me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Sadlier, of course, was up to his neck in it all. Fenian scum!!!!
Wasn't there a story of Sadlier having supported Rangers as a boy in rebellion? It all makes sense now. What an elaborate decoy to conceal what he was really up to all along.
Yep: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-26726387.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Kind of funny imagining the scene of 13 year old daring to go against the grain in the notoriously hard-drinking fenian battleground of Ballinteer, but I suppose he had to jazz it up a bit.