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Henry Joy McCracken if he were alive today would probably be a Hibernian fan. Hibs fans sometimes fly the green flag which was the flag flown by the men of 1798. Also McCracken being a Presbyterian and Republican would identify with the fact that Hibs draw their support from both Catholics and Protestants.
What you have to understand is that these Irish boys will think you are a "Plastic Paddy".
Glad I don't have that problem.
The real Irish culture that Celtic had is immalgameted with Scottush culture - Not too unsimilar.
This is old ground - I'll leave it at that
See we have Dani and De La Pena on trial at the moment??
Super
Laugh it off all ye like mate but if people object to a term being used against them as it causes offence and indeed leads to violence you continue to use it your a racist!Quote:
Originally posted by Conor74
LOL!!!
Let's not get too hysterical because you got a bloody nose at school. If you think Plastic Paddies are a new race, fair play to you. Get a grant and go live with them for a few years and write a book telling us about their customs and traditions.
I've heard it all here, I must say. Dear me, calling someone "plastic" is racist? Hilarious stuff, LH, absolutely priceless...
Times are changing in Ireland mate and its upto you if ye want to live in the past or not!
The main reason I stay away from league of Ireland grounds Austim is the fans!
Actaully its probably why alot of people stay away from league of ireland grounds.......
Most of them just go as an excuse to get away from the wife and stand there giving out about everything that moves.
You know the type they can be found at any bar in Ireland sitting around solving the problems of the world to their own satisfaction and god forbid anyone should have an opinion that doesnt conform to their thinking.
Just look through some of the threads on these boards to see what I mean.
Leave them to it I say
My advice to ye is to stick with Celtic fc, ye cant go wrong!
Hail Hail
Personally I dont see Irish and Scottish culture and history as being at all similar which is the way it should be!Quote:
Originally posted by Scotsman
The real Irish culture that Celtic had is immalgameted with Scottush culture - Not too unsimilar.
Lots of different colours are far nicer than just different shades of grey
:)
Quote:
Henry Joy McCracken if he were alive today would probably be Hibernian fan. Hibs fans sometimes fly the green flag which was the flag flown by the men of 1798. Also McCracken being a Presbyterian and Republican would identify with the fact that Hibs draw their support from both Catholics and Protestants.
what a couple of ******** posts these are. firstly, Hibs were the only sectarian club in Scotland to begin with - they only played Catholics as a rule. Hibernian was far more solely Irish Catholic than Celtic - only in the last half-century did that changed, simply because the Glasgow clubs became the top two, the rivalry more intense and politicized etc. McCracken, as a "scotch-irish" ulsterman, would certainly find the tricolor and the term "Celtic" instead of just the Latin for Irish, more accomodating to his heritage and politics (seeing as Hibs of late have developed a distinctly non-celtic, non-irish, non-scottish fascist casual element).Quote:
"tim_1798" - i think this is more interesting in the context of ur connundrum. I hardly think that Henry Joy McCracken would enjoy a Glasgow Celtic game. I dont think he would appreciate the "Irish culture" inherent in a lot of Celtic supporters songs.
and what on earth would McCracken find offensive about Celtic's songs? admittedly, in the past there were a few "John Knox is down in hell" and "oh it's great to be a Roman Catholic", but since the board-initiated Bhoys Against Bigotry campaign, these have been successfully banned. even ones i'm sure he would have approved of, like A Nation Once Again, have been banned :mad:
furthermore, there are a huge amount of protestant celts - myself included. i've never even been inside an RC church, the only church i ever attended was protestant, and i know alot of Celtic fans (particularly in US, Aus, and NZ) who are the same. (i'm actually agnostic now though btw). and believe me, we have no trouble being accepted by the 70%-85% Catholic-schooled majority.
i rather think McCracken would have been a follower of a Ulster Belfast club, like Glentoran, or maybe even Cliftonville.
actually, i don't simply watch them on t.v., i've also spend perhaps a thousand dollars on merchandise, i'm a World Huddle member (i.e. season-ticket holder for foreigners), i watch the games with fellow Celtic-supporters (most of whom are from Scotland, some Irish) and sing the songs. the only thing that separates my level of participation from most is that i've never actually had the pleasure of entering Celtic Park.Quote:
Just because you have irish roots of some sort why do you feel you have to support a club thousands of miles away that you have no connection to? That would be tha same if supporting a scottish or irish club.
I could pick an Italian team to support cos i liked their jerseys or whatever but how will i ever have an connection with that club? I can still watch them on tv & look out for their results but i can never really be called a supporter cos i'm really only a spectator...
but the real point is, that this is a slippery-slope argument. if i decided to support a melbourne team, i'd really have little connection with that club either. since i'm not actually from melbourne (would an Australian club founded by, and mostly staffed by, either Italians or Greeks or Macedonians, have much relevance to me anyway?) but a small town north, which only has a junior amatuer club, who if i played for would probably be their best player - should i support it?
fact is, your connection is wherever your heart lies...
well, i'd love to hear a definition of a "Plastic Paddy". i mean, for example, does Henry Joy McCracken fall under this nomenclature? or Douglas Hyde? or all the thousands who since 1169 have come to Ireland only to eventually call it home? does Ireland not welcome immigrants?Quote:
What you have to understand is that these Irish boys will think you are a "Plastic Paddy".
the story of my love affair is quite simple: when i was 12, my mother and my grandmother went on holiday to Europe. they returned with, among many other souvenoirs, some history books, and a Phil Coulter CD. they spent most of their time in the British Isles, and loved the British Isles the most, and so i asked where my ancestors were from (expecting the answer to be England of course). my dad's side, basically 100% Irish Catholic (he even spoke some Gaelic in his childhood with relatives), and my mum's side, an admixture of Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, and English. so i started reading the history books on these countries and became quite enthralled (as a 12 year old does with tales of battles and their heroes). above all, the photos of the Irish landscape possessed for me an overwhelming sense of familiarity. but nothing could prepare me for the experience that was listening to my first CD of Celtic (mostly Irish) music (albeit played on a piano with accompaniment). amazing. ever since then, i've always thought of Eire as home, it's always felt like home. is that a crime?
"they say, they will, return again
the london irish, the london irish
but they, won't say, exactly when
the london irish, the london irish"
i thought many Irish wanted their expatriates to return?
thanks for the advice Lionel Hutz, and i know the type you're talking about, but i'm sure i'll have to go to Ireland before i accept any such generalization. :)Quote:
The main reason I stay away from league of Ireland grounds Austim is the fans!
Actaully its probably why alot of people stay away from league of ireland grounds.......
Most of them just go as an excuse to get away from the wife and stand there giving out about everything that moves.
You know the type they can be found at any bar in Ireland sitting around solving the problems of the world to their own satisfaction and god forbid anyone should have an opinion that doesnt conform to their thinking.
Just look through some of the threads on these boards to see what I mean.
Leave them to it I say
My advice to ye is to stick with Celtic fc, ye cant go wrong!
Hail Hail
Lionel what I was meaning was that because of the differences between Irish and Scots the Celtic fans that get called "Plastic Paddys" do have alot of differences to say their ancestors.
Personally I can see similarities between Scots and Irish but yes differences are good.
Anyway C'mon the hoops.
You from the League Of Ireland PR team or what?Quote:
Originally posted by Conor74
You might quote the source of your presumptions.
I actually bring the wife. We meet a lot of (mostly unmarried) fellows and talk about the game. We go for a few drinks before and after and have a good laugh. We may head for a late bar. Nobody gives out about anything unless the team played poorly, because who wants to listen to whingers all night?
So agin, i ask you, what's the source of your fascinating theory?
:D
If that statement is made in reference to where a person originates from or their backround and is said in a fashion to cause offence and indeed violence on occasion then yes it is a racist statement!Quote:
Originally posted by Conor74
You really are not the brightest crayon in the box. Your logic is that any phrase that causes offence, if repeated, makes the person who makes that statement racist.
Ahhhh but I see yer from Kerry, Id imagen Jackie Healy Ray gets yer first preference...................
Now I see where yer logic comes from!
:D
that's hardly an answer LH...Quote:
Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
You from the League Of Ireland PR team or what?
:D
or are you from the 'trample on the LOI team' or what?;)
This is going round in circles at this stage and Iv had enough, its getting boring!
You say Im a plastic paddy and I say your a racist now can we just leave it at that?
:rolleyes:
Not at all!Quote:
Originally posted by tiktok
or are you from the 'trample on the LOI team' or what?;)
I would love to see football flourish in Ireland and try not to critices the standard of football as many people who support teams from across the water do as I think League Of Ireland clubs do great work on the amount of resources they have to operate with I just dont like the League of Ireland fans thats all.
not liking all LOI fans is a bit much though isn't it....
what experience's are you basing this on, have you been to a game where you were treated particularly badly or are you basing it on those you've encountered on this message board???
not having a go, just curious.
I think McCracken being a Freemason as many of the the leaders of the United Irishmen were, might have a problem with the "Masonic Conspiracy theories" of many Celtic fans. Celtic fans are always going on about referees and the SFA making biased decisions as part of some huge "Masonic Conspiracy". Also McCracken would identify with the fact that Hibs were owned by a Freemason Harry Swan from the 1930's onwards.Quote:
Originally posted by aussie_tim_1798
what a couple of ******** posts these are. firstly, Hibs were the only sectarian club in Scotland to begin with - they only played Catholics as a rule. Hibernian was far more solely Irish Catholic than Celtic - only in the last half-century did that changed, simply because the Glasgow clubs became the top two, the rivalry more intense and politicized etc. McCracken, as a "scotch-irish" ulsterman, would certainly find the tricolor and the term "Celtic" instead of just the Latin for Irish, more accomodating to his heritage and politics (seeing as Hibs of late have developed a distinctly non-celtic, non-irish, non-scottish fascist casual element).
and what on earth would McCracken find offensive about Celtic's songs? admittedly, in the past there were a few "John Knox is down in hell" and "oh it's great to be a Roman Catholic", but since the board-initiated Bhoys Against Bigotry campaign, these have been successfully banned. even ones i'm sure he would have approved of, like A Nation Once Again, have been banned :mad:
furthermore, there are a huge amount of protestant celts - myself included. i've never even been inside an RC church, the only church i ever attended was protestant, and i know alot of Celtic fans (particularly in US, Aus, and NZ) who are the same. (i'm actually agnostic now though btw). and believe me, we have no trouble being accepted by the 70%-85% Catholic-schooled majority.
i rather think McCracken would have been a follower of a Ulster Belfast club, like Glentoran, or maybe even Cliftonville.
Also for your information it was way back in 1893 that the Hibees first opened their doors to non-Catholics. The support base was further broadened to include more non-Catholics when Swan became the first non-Catholic director.
Also it wouldn't be too suprising if McCracken would have been a Cliftonville supporter. Up until about 1970 Cliftonville were a mainly middle class and Protestant amateur football club (same background as McCracken). And it was only after demographic changes during the "troubles" that they changed to a mainly Catholic semi-professional club.
I also forgot to mention that original motto of Hibernian was "Erin go Bragh" meaning "Ireland Forever" or "Ireland until Doomsday" which was used on the green flag flown by the men of 1798 and which was flown by many Hibernian supporters in the 2001 Scottish FA Cup Final.
PS McCracken was also educated in Edinburgh so that's another reason he might identify with Hibernian.
threads merged again. Any more new threads on this topic will be either deleted or merged.
No worries mate!Quote:
Originally posted by tiktok
not liking all LOI fans is a bit much though isn't it....
what experience's are you basing this on, have you been to a game where you were treated particularly badly or are you basing it on those you've encountered on this message board???
not having a go, just curious.
Been to games (but never been treated badly as such) various message boards and indeed just people I know from day to day activities who attend LOI games!
Never meet such a small minded self righteous bunch in all my life!
Have no time for them and they have completely turned me off watching domestic football.....when the hell did we suddenly start calling it "soccer" anyway?
This ****** from them about Celtic=secterian just reafirms what Iv come to believe over the years.
BTW when I was younger I often attended the Carlisle Grounds and Dalymount on the odd occasion
The fact that the first irish people came from scotland, we were all celts, used basically the same language and have always had a close relationship with one another, helped each other in many battles(mostly against england), Our people have more our less the same characteristics, alot of the same customs, Ways for making and building stuff would make us completely different wouldnt it.Quote:
Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Personally I dont see Irish and Scottish culture and history as being at all similar which is the way it should be!
Lots of different colours are far nicer than just different shades of grey
:)
Always thought the cultures of both countries parted to a large extent with the arrival of the reformation and its ideals to Scotland.Quote:
Originally posted by Cityace
The fact that the first irish people came from scotland, we were all celts, used basically the same language and have always had a close relationship with one another, helped each other in many battles(mostly against england), Our people have more our less the same characteristics, alot of the same customs, Ways for making and building stuff would make us completely different wouldnt it.
Dunno about helping each other in battles either, think ye may have seen Braveheart one to mant times!:D
Alot of the misery inflicted on Ireland (specialy in the last few hundred years) has been at the hands of Scottish people IMHO.
However thats getting of topic, which I think has been done to death, think Il let it go now unless a new angle appears to the thread
You should study Irish history more. Irish people with the surnames McDonnell, McCabe, McSweeney, Sheehy and Gallagher are descended from Scottish Gallowglasses who fought alongside the Irish against the Normans.Quote:
Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Always thought the cultures of both countries parted to a large extent with the arrival of the reformation and its ideals to Scotland.
Dunno about helping each other in battles either, think ye may have seen Braveheart one to mant times!:D
Alot of the misery inflicted on Ireland (specialy in the last few hundred years) has been at the hands of Scottish people IMHO.
Edward Bruce the brother of the Scottish hero, Robert the Bruce was even crowned King of Ireland. The Blarney Stone was part of the Stone of Scone given in reward to the McCarthys who fought in the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, so Braveheart isn't complete fiction.
In fact the Scottish-Irish Gaelic link wasn't completely broken until Bonnie Prince Charlie was defeated at the Battle of Culloden in 1746. The commander of the prince's army was a Kerryman John O'Sullivan and many of the descendants of the wild geese fought in that battle.
About misery being inflicted. The Scottish people suffered a lot under British rule too, after Culloden and during the Highland Clearances.
You can still see the similarities in cultures today in the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages. The Gaels of the Scotland are descended from the Irish. In fact Scot originally meant Irishman. Ireland was once known as Scotia Major and Scotland was called Scotia Minor. So no one can deny the strong links between the two countries.
The great Irish Socialist Republican and leader of the 1916 rising James Connolly had no problem in supporting in Hibs. Another reason why Irish people should support Hibs instead of Celtic.Quote:
Originally posted by aussie_tim_1798
Hibs were the only sectarian club in Scotland to begin with - they only played Catholics as a rule. Hibernian was far more solely Irish Catholic than Celtic - only in the last half-century did that changed, simply because the Glasgow clubs became the top two, the rivalry more intense and politicized etc. McCracken, as a "scotch-irish" ulsterman, would certainly find the tricolor and the term "Celtic" instead of just the Latin for Irish, more accomodating to his heritage and politics (seeing as Hibs of late have developed a distinctly non-celtic, non-irish, non-scottish fascist casual element).
Iv a BA in History and Geography mate!Quote:
Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
You should study Irish history more. Irish people with the surnames McDonnell, McCabe, McSweeney, Sheehy and Gallagher are descended from Scottish Gallowglasses who fought alongside the Irish against the Normans.
Edward Bruce the brother of the Scottish hero, Robert the Bruce was even crowned King of Ireland. The Blarney Stone was part of the Stone of Scone given in reward to the McCarthys who fought in the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, so Braveheart isn't complete fiction.
In fact the Scottish-Irish Gaelic link wasn't completely broken until Bonnie Prince Charlie was defeated at the Battle of Culloden in 1746. The commander of the prince's army was a Kerryman John O'Sullivan and many of the descendants of the wild geese fought in that battle.
About misery being inflicted. The Scottish people suffered a lot under British rule too, after Culloden and during the Highland Clearances.
You can still see the simularities in cultures today in the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages. The Gaels of the Scotland are descended from the Irish. In fact Scot originally meant Irishman. Ireland was once known as Scotia Major and Scotland was called Scotia Minor. So no one can deny the strong links between the two countries.
:rolleyes:
I stated that in the last few centuries in particular Scotland has played a very active part in the affairs of Ireland, right up to today where a large percentage of British troops based in the six counties are drawn from Scotland!
Read up on the british empire, particularly from the industrial revolution on to see how active Scotland has been within the affairs of the British Empire!
Knowing history is to know that you take information from every quater to build a complete picture of events as apposed to taking one view point as gospel at the expense of other sources of evidence.
You say you feel affinity with Scottish club Celtic yet you are anti-Scottish. You are typical of the mindset among some Celtic fans which only emphasises the differences between Ireland and Scotland.Quote:
Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Iv a BA in History and Geography mate!
:rolleyes:
I stated that in the last few centuries in particular Scotland has played a very active part in the affairs of Ireland, right up to today where a large percentage of British troops based in the six counties are drawn from Scotland!
Read up on the british empire, particularly from the industrial revolution on to see how active Scotland has been within the affairs of the British Empire!
Knowing history is to know that you take information from every quater to build a complete picture of events as apposed to taking one view point as gospel at the expense of other sources of evidence.
The Irish also sadly also played an an active part in the spread of the British Empire, many Irish soldiers serving in the British Army. Look at Britain today and see that the poorest parts are in Scotland. The Scots have been as much victims of English rule as the Irish.
It is the bigoted insular attitudes of many West of Scotland Catholics and Protestants who vote Labour instead of the Scottish National Party which keeps Scotland within the United Kingdom. Many Celtic-supporting Catholics think the SNP are Presbyterian bigots (despite the fact the SNP were formed by a Catholic Compton Mackenzie!) and many Rangers-supporting Protestants think the SNP are linked to the IRA and Sinn Fein!
Paddy you are 100% right about the SNP thing. Celtic and Rangers fans often spout this cr*p. No independence for us yet I'm awfie sad tae say. :( I would however say that Ireland has been historically more of a victim than Scotland. But not any more and not for a while.
And trivial arguments about which soldiers are stationed in N. Ireland miss the point entirely (by Lionel, not you Paddy). This is a conflict area (and spare me any potential ramblings about the the injustice of partition). It is 2003, not 1921, and the UK government is bending over backwards to manage the situation.
Also do you really think the Irish government seriously wants Northern Ireland back? And have a million angry unionists in their country making up almost 20% of the population? With all the economic costs to go with it not to mention the potential for social unrest/war? The simplistic Brits occupying northern Ireland argument has no meaning any more. They don't even want to be there and would love to leave if they could.
why are glasgow celtic called the the bhoys??.why the odd spelling??//
"Bhoys" is the spelling of the Irish pronunciation of "boys". Celtic as everyone knows were founded by the Irish Catholics in Glasgow.
thanks /knew about the irish connection it was just the name i was wondering about
A Sligo man founded Celtic. Back to the why do so many Irish people support Celtic and not Irish clubs I think you can support/follow any one you want. I have family in Glasgow so I've been to a few games in Park Head but I couldn't say I support Celtic because of that. I support Sligo Rovers because they are my local team I go to all home Games and most away ones that’s what support is. Like most Irish people I follow Celtic (because of the Irish thing and I got family there) I watch them on the TV etc that’s what you call following a team.Quote:
as everyone knows were founded by the Irish Catholics in Glasgow.
I'm, er, no fan of the Old Firm, but blaming them for the SNP's weakness is a bit rich. The Nats haven't been able to convince enough voters that they would handle the country's economy any better than Kircaldy boy Broon does. I have to say I've never met or even heard a single Scot rejecting a vote for the SNP for the reasons you describe.Quote:
Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
It is the bigoted insular attitudes of many West of Scotland Catholics and Protestants who vote Labour instead of the Scottish National Party which keeps Scotland within the United Kingdom. Many Celtic-supporting Catholics think the SNP are Presbyterian bigots (despite the fact the SNP were formed by a Catholic Compton Mackenzie!) and many Rangers-supporting Protestants think the SNP are linked to the IRA and Sinn Fein!
Please explain to me where I stated I was anti-Scottish in my last post on this thread?Quote:
Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
You say you feel affinity with Scottish club Celtic yet you are anti-Scottish. You are typical of the mindset among some Celtic fans which only emphasises the differences between Ireland and Scotland.
Regarding emphasising the differences between Scotland and Ireland are you saying it is wrong to state cetain facts in case they may be unpleasent to some people, although who would find my remarks in the post above offensive Im not quiet sure!?
Personally I think the way this thread has developed its only right that all aspects of the argument should be discussed as the "Oldfirm" itself is not something that has just sprung up over night
That point was simply inserted to show a historical time line and to give another side to the history put forward by Paddy, nothing less nothing more.Quote:
Originally posted by Jam
And trivial arguments about which soldiers are stationed in N. Ireland miss the point entirely (by Lionel, not you Paddy). This is a conflict area (and spare me any potential ramblings about the the injustice of partition). It is 2003, not 1921, and the UK government is bending over backwards to manage the situation.
However seeing as you have made an issue of it I will tell you that there is nothing trivail about the issue of soldiars stationed in N Ireland and your trivialization of the issues speaks volumes for you as a human being!
Be assured that I will not mention the "injustice of partition" (where the hell did this come from anyway? :rolleyes: ) as I see no point now or in the future discussing such a "trivail" issue with such a closed minded individual as yourself!
Some Celtic fans are anti-Scottish nationalist while being pro-Irish Republican. They should realise that an independent Scotland would mean the split-up of the United Kingdom and Irish reunification would be more likely.Quote:
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I'm, er, no fan of the Old Firm, but blaming them for the SNP's weakness is a bit rich. The Nats haven't been able to convince enough voters that they would handle the country's economy any better than Kircaldy boy Broon does. I have to say I've never met or even heard a single Scot rejecting a vote for the SNP for the reasons you describe.
That sounds a bit anti-Scottish.Quote:
Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Alot of the misery inflicted on Ireland (specialy in the last few hundred years) has been at the hands of Scottish people IMHO.
During the second world war Nazi Germany killed 5 million jews, as well as a large number of disabled people, gays, and gypsies.Quote:
Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
That sounds a bit anti-Scottish.
More racist violence broke out after the collapse of the Berlin wall and the unification of the two Germanys, east and west during which time dozens of migrant workers and asylum seekrs were killed mainly in poorer areas of eastern Germany.
Does this make me "anti-German"?
To be honest Paddy reading back that post it makes me look like a smart arse but your accusing me of something that I am not which really ****es me off!
I hope we can get back to the topic and leave the accusations alone?
:)
What about the misery inflicted on the Irish people by the English, the Vikings etc? Also a large element of the British Army used to put down rebellions in Ireland were Irish.
I remember reading an article about the height of the Scots Nationalists power in the west of Scotland late 70's early 80'sQuote:
Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Some Celtic fans are anti-Scottish nationalist while being pro-Irish Republican. They should realise that an independent Scotland would mean the split-up of the United Kingdom and Irish reunification would be more likely.
when the leader of the party attended the annual Orange order Parade (held in some large park in the city center) and stood on a platform and said that Catholics were the real enemy of Scotland. The Scots Nats quickly denied this was a party political statement and claimed he was attending as a private individual,,,,,the man in question (elderly if I remember right) was quckly replaced but the damage was done.
I don't see how Catholics of Irish descent in Scotland voting for the Unionist British Labour Party is going to bring about a United Ireland. Look at the following which discredit your notion of a link between the Orange Order and the Scottish National Party.
www.sundayherald.com/16837
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/tt18.htm
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/gillies.htm
All Irish Nationalists should be Scottish Nationalists as well. Erin go bragh agus Alba gu brath!
The Scots Nats trying to brush under the carpet the Orange rantings of an earlier party leader of course would condem any remarks made by some Lodge Grand secretary in Scotland which contained undertones of violence (it would be political suicide not too) There is some guy in the in the Scottish classical music scene who is well known over there (sorry his name escapes me,,,McMillan perhaps) set the cat amongst the pigeons a year or two ago by saying that anti catholic sentiment in Scotland was Scotlands secret shame. I think the Catholics of Irish descent would feel the bigots in high places would have more power in a Independant Scotland,,,voting Labour seems the lesser of all evilsQuote:
Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
I don't see how Catholics of Irish descent in Scotland voting for the Unionist British Labour Party is going to bring about a United Ireland. Look at the following which discredit your notion of a link between the Orange Order and the Scottish National Party.
www.sundayherald.com/16837
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/tt18.htm
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/gillies.htm
All Irish Nationalists should be Scottish Nationalists as well. Erin go bragh agus Alba gu brath!