Republic of Ireland V Sweden - Friday, 6th September 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifier

We are not going to qualify but for any chance we need to win Tuesday night, beat Kazak and get something in Germany. Would also need Sweden to get no more than 3 points in their last 3 games.

Time for Trap to go. His first campaign was excellent, particularly in comparison to what had gone under Stan before. But I think the last campaign (albeit successful) was not won with any great style or assurance. We couldnt beat Slovakia and needed Armenia to do us a favour there. We did however dispose of Armenia and fluked a point in Russia. We got fortunate with the Estonia draw in the playoff.

This campaign couldve been over in the very first game bar a remarkable turnaround in a few minutes.

In fairness to Trap, he has been superb at getting results home and away against the lower seeds in the group. However, we have not got the results required, particularly at home, against the first and second seeds.

The tactics last night were futile and inept. We created absolutely nothing. The subs baffling. Time for change is now. It will do us no good, rankings or otherwise for us, to lose Tuesday night. We need to finish out this campaign as well as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by brine3

I knew you'd say that. You're not interested in having a discussion.

---

I am.

I'm showing where you're talking nonsense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gather round

You've already got an all-Ireland team, albeit bulked out with players from England and currently Scotland. Your pool of players/ overall population, even if combined with NI's, is similar to say Croatia and Slovenia, who are doing quite nicely separately. They've managed 10 qualifications between them since independence. You aren't going to get what you presumably want but won't spell out, ie the NI team and Irish FA dissolving themselves. What then could you realistically offer in negotiation? Maybe that you wouldn't pick players who'd already appeared in NI adult teams- but obviously that would contradict what you actually want.

Yes, many players from NI aspire to play for the South, and a handful have achieved it in recent years. You don't need any framework or negotiation to provide that, it's already there.

The problem isn't that your pool of potential players is reduced by lack of co-operation with NI. It's that British-style football and its players have obvious limitations. England make quarter finals and not further, the smaller countries rarely look like qualifying. As you broadly say below.

---

Agree with everything you say here. You're attempting to put them in order though, the wrong order. That is to say that we (Ireland and let's hope it's an all Ireland team one day) need to get away from the British style game (could not agree with you more and have been saying this for twenty years now) before we should think about merging North and South. But it would not hurt to have the larger pool of players when the time comes.

I think if we are going to lose, it would be nice to lose having a go. I think the Euro qualifying carried more luck than most irish managers have enjoyed, but, credit to him & now it's time to go cause we are basically going no where under trap. He is tactically inept now. His decision making is nonsensical. A yr and a half ago when James McClean was in form and playing well he couldn't get near the team. Now he is out of form not playing well and he starts while robbie Brady sits on the sidelines unable to get 5 mins. We need a change of system that allows us to compete instead of Hail Mary long balls. Do we have the players? yes we do. Gibson does want to play for Ireland just not for Trap and let's be honest he wouldn't pick him anyway. Gibson McCarthy and Hoolahan would at least allow us to retain the ball so that's a starting point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

Whelan out of the Austria game.

---

Hardly sounds like a loss do it? I would have preferred Paul Green's industry anyway.
Stephen Quinn called up. Not sure we have any other realistic options.

Has Trap organised every other team he has managed in such restrictive and uninventive fashion or is it just ourselves he sees as uniquely limited so as to necessitate it? It will be interesting to see how he approaches Tuesday night.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Has Trap organised every other team he has managed in such restrictive and uninventive fashion or is it just ourselves he sees as uniquely limited so as to necessitate it? It will be interesting to see how he approaches Tuesday night.

---

As his away record is half decent I would expect more of the same.
Could be an interesting evening, Austria need a win too realistically.
What would be really interesting is if Kazakhstan got a result against Sweden in their game which finishes about a hour
before the Ireland kick off.

Kazakhstan held Austria to a draw, we only beat them 2-1 at home.
Going by the bookmakers odds there is a 22.5% chance of Sweden not winning, but even that slim chance makes little change for us.

Tbf to Stu he has beaten the Venerable Bryaniesta into a pulp here...

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...p-robbie-keane

Robbie not a happy bunny & rightly so. Will we get a reaction on Tursday?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mark12345

Agree with everything you say here. You're attempting to put them in order though, the wrong order. That is to say that we (Ireland and let's hope it's an all Ireland team one day) need to get away from the British style game (could not agree with you more and have been saying this for twenty years now) before we should think about merging North and South. But it would not hurt to have the larger pool of players when the time comes

---

Mark, read what I wrote. You don't need to daydream about having an all-Ireland team in 20 years time. You have one already.

Except it'll be nothing to do with that when it eventually gets binned off.
Plus thought you'd "retired from the internet" ??
:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I don't agree with Never Felt Better at all. I've seen Eastern European minnows play much better than Sweden. I honestly don't think I have ever seen an international match so lacking even one midfielder on either team capable of doing the midfield basics right. Larsson impressed me in the second half, but I think they just twigged after 30 minutes or so that we had nothing but long balls to offer.

---

Ha I agree with you Stutts:D Didnt see a whole lot in that Swedish team either, they beat Ireland easy enough without even going into first gear (if they have that ability)

Just been watching player interviews as well as the studio analysis from RTÉ.ie and thought the sentiment expressed by Robbie from around 02:19 to be worrying: http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/813/472803/

Tony O'Donoghue asks could we have varied the tactics when required but Robbie openly admits that we didn't/don't have an alternative approach to "feeding off scraps" and "try[ing] to get the second balls". Simply put, "that's the way we play... We only know one way". I suppose it shouldn't really come as a surprise - it was obvious we had no alternative to offer - but I don't think it's too much to expect Trap to have some sort of plan B up his sleeve when the plan A is so clearly taking us nowhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mark12345

1. Concorde Serious overtures should be made to the IFA, by the FAI.

---

Why should the IFA and their fans be expected to voluntarily give up their history and identity by subsuming their side into ours? Would we or the FAI, on the other hand, be happy to give up our history and identity to be subsumed into the IFA?

The only way we'll have an All-Ireland team and league is if the country is re-united. So, you know, lets not bust out Ireland's Call just yet.

It really is pointless talking about it. The IFA would never, in a million years, go for the idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Why should the IFA and their fans be expected to voluntarily give up their history and identity by subsuming their side into ours? Would we or the FAI, on the other hand, be happy to give up our history and identity to be subsumed into the IFA?

---

As if we (or they) should be so 'lucky'.Regardless of what happens in the next decade, both/any future 'united' team face a bleak future...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Why should the IFA and their fans be expected to voluntarily give up their history and identity by subsuming their side into ours? Would we or the FAI, on the other hand, be happy to give up our history and identity to be subsumed into the IFA?

---

But our histories already overlap. The FAI broke away from the IFA and so many players turned out for both Associations in the post war decades. The future means more than the past in any case and on current evidence both teams can only view that with trepidation. It's not guaranteed to make a huge difference, but I would like to see it and surprisingly so would many IFA international over the years. What's fundamentally unhealthy about our footballing divisions at the moment is that they are increasingly sectarian and bitter. In the North today the respective shirts have become emblems of sectarian identity. Rugby, cricket, boxing and other sports have proved that sport can straddle political division and can bring people from two states and different traditions together behind a common cause that accommodates and respects their respective identities.

Please, not this **** again.

Or instead of whining, just ignore the post...
;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by third policeman

But our histories already overlap. The FAI broke away from the IFA and so many players turned out for both Associations in the post war decades. The future means more than the past in any case and on current evidence both teams can only view that with trepidation. It's not guaranteed to make a huge difference, but I would like to see it and surprisingly so would many IFA international over the years. What's fundamentally unhealthy about our footballing divisions at the moment is that they are increasingly sectarian and bitter. In the North today the respective shirts have become emblems of sectarian identity. Rugby, cricket, boxing and other sports have proved that sport can straddle political division and can bring people from two states and different traditions together behind a common cause that accommodates and respects their respective identities.

---

I think I understand this.

Is it about a bicycle?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by third policeman

But our histories already overlap. The FAI broke away from the IFA and so many players turned out for both Associations in the post war decades. The future means more than the past in any case and on current evidence both teams can only view that with trepidation. It's not guaranteed to make a huge difference, but I would like to see it and surprisingly so would many IFA international over the years. What's fundamentally unhealthy about our footballing divisions at the moment is that they are increasingly sectarian and bitter. In the North today the respective shirts have become emblems of sectarian identity. Rugby, cricket, boxing and other sports have proved that sport can straddle political division and can bring people from two states and different traditions together behind a common cause that accommodates and respects their respective identities.

---

The FAI were initially established with the intention of replacing the IFA as the island's association but were only granted admission to FIFA based upon the 26-county jurisdiction of the Irish Free State.

Anyhow, even if it was legally possible, which it isn't, in accordance with the present governing regulations, who would budge and relinquish the privilege of official succession?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grafter

This change the manager lark is typical home nations media fodder.... if it's not sacking the manager it's manager wants a new contract e.g. Coleman at Wales, feck do u think Coleman should be rewarded for losing to Macedonia last night? But I digress....

---

Coleman is a bit of a special case. He basically admitted he wouldn't contemplate playing his best player in a must-win World Cup qualifier in order to foster a good relationship with the player's club. He's a complete and utter patsy. Of all the criticisms you could level at Trap, bending to clubs' interests isn't one of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Coleman is a bit of a special case. He basically admitted he wouldn't contemplate playing his best player in a must-win World Cup qualifier in order to foster a good relationship with the player's club. He's a complete and utter patsy. Of all the criticisms you could level at Trap, bending to clubs' interests isn't one of them.

---

Just reading the transcript of Coleman's post-Macedonia press conference: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/f...gareth-5851388

It's extraordinarily hostile and arrogant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gather round

Mark, read what I wrote. You don't need to daydream about having an all-Ireland team in 20 years time. You have one already.

---

Oh yeah right. My mistake. That was the reserves playing against Portugal at Windsor Park on Friday night.

Eh I dunno. Let me think now. Maybe because we have an all Ireland team in Rugby and Boxing and one or two smaller sports I believe. Good folk all of them and able to get on with one another like brothers. And much better teams for it. But who am I to have crazy notions like the soccer lads joining forces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Has Trap organised every other team he has managed in such restrictive and uninventive fashion or is it just ourselves he sees as uniquely limited so as to necessitate it? It will be interesting to see how he approaches Tuesday night.

---

Just heard interviews with Giles, Brady, Dunphy and the one with Robbie. Excellent points made by the pundits and echoed in his own way by Robbie who said in not so many words that the team is set out to play the long ball game. The lads in the studio mentioned Trap winning leagues and titles with Juventus, Bayern Munich and also coaching Italy. But Giles made a very good point in that you have to work with the players you have, even if they are sub standard like our lads. In that respect Trap has been an abysmal failure because he has failed to coach the players to play the proper game (a la Italy, Juve, Bayern). Sure, it would have been work for him to do it, hard work, but it appears he never even gave it a try. So at the end of the day, you or I could have coached Juve, Bayern or Italy and done well with those exceptional players. But the real acid test of a coach is what he can do with inferior players. Ireland are going to have to knuckle down and change their game 180 degrees to emulate the better teams of Europe. It has to happen and if we spend two / three years in the wilderness in the process so be it. But it has to happen. It does produce results - just look at Belgium.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mark12345

Eh I dunno. Let me think now. Maybe because we have an all Ireland team in Rugby and Boxing and one or two smaller sports I believe. Good folk all of them and able to get on with one another like brothers.

---

Does the unionist tradition in Ireland really enjoy that much recognition by the IRFU though?

Quote:

---

And much better teams for it.

---

How can you say with any certainty? It's impossible to say whether those teams/sports are better for it or not as you have nothing in terms of "split" teams against which to measure their success or lack thereof.

Quote:

---

But who am I to have crazy notions like the soccer lads joining forces.

---

You're essentially asking another association to disband and agree to fall under your fantasy umbrella. It's all fine and dandy for some, but can't you see why that might be problematic for others who hold dear their association's history and tradition? It's both ignorant and inflammatory in that sense. If they'd rather not dilute or give up their identity, let them be; why troll them, especially when we have an all-island side ourselves and all our nationals, irrespective of where on the island they have been born, are fully entitled to play for us if they so wish?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mark12345

Eh I dunno. Let me think now. Maybe because we have an all Ireland team in Rugby and Boxing and one or two smaller sports I believe. Good folk all of them and able to get on with one another like brothers. And much better teams for it. But who am I to have crazy notions like the soccer lads joining forces

---

You're a bit behind the times Mark. Yes, there are also all-Ireland teams in (among others) rowing, table tennis, cycling, cricket and hockey. Yet NI's top performers in all of them play in British teams. That's not because they're unable to get on with their Southern brothers, it's that they're from a different country. NI's top boxers also take part in the Commonwealth Games.

Oh and spare us the witless sarcasm. If you want to be someone's reserve team and qualify more often, call England or Germany.

Huh??

Never mind 'witless', as opposed to the same GR 'point' being made pompously 'ad nauseum'...

I find it a bit rich to see Steven Reid appointed to some sort of wise international sage by Independent Newspaper. The guy had an unfulfilled international career for one reason or another and (like Sadlier) really doesn't command authority in my view.
The day after Sweden game he was on front of Newspaper giving the lazy line "where are our world class players coming through?" 2 points to this in my view:

A) We're in no different a position playerwise than we were in the past. Good players come through and step up in their own time eg. Who would have predicted Coleman? Who's to say Robbie Brady isn't developing into a top player etc It's just lazy to say "I can't see where our players are going to come from".

B) My second point is how the hell does Reid compose this article between the match ending at 9.30pm and print going to press that same night? Does he have a positive and negative article ready in advance depending on result? Even with a ghost writer....

It takes **** all time to write an article, especially when it's ghost written. Reid takes 5-10 minutes to make his case to the journo who then vomits it onto a page. There's a shell written out beforehand since it's largely fairly predictable, and most of it can be written during the match. The Indo goes to press later than that, around 11-11.30 I think. They possibly even hold the press on the night of an international since that'll be a big part of their sales the next day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grafter

The day after Sweden game he was on front of Newspaper giving the lazy line "where are our world class players coming through?" 2 points to this in my view:

A) We're in no different a position playerwise than we were in the past. Good players come through and step up in their own time eg. Who would have predicted Coleman? Who's to say Robbie Brady isn't developing into a top player etc It's just lazy to say "I can't see where our players are going to come from".

---

So, what's your point here exactly? Leave things the way they are, or largely to chance, in other words? Where are our top players going to come from? We have no infrastructure in place to ensure a certain stream of top-class talent coming through.

I also find it slightly strange that a man who grew up in England is asking where our players are coming through. In no way am I diminishing the Irishness of the diaspora but we really can't rely on them forever - English clubs are struggling to produce English players, let alone Irish players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

So, what's your point here exactly? Leave things the way they are, or largely to chance, in other words? Where are our top players going to come from? We have no infrastructure in place to ensure a certain stream of top-class talent coming through.

---

My point is that we are not that badly served at present and that once or twice every generation it has been proved that we produce a world class talent. Nobody can predict as Trap would say "the next future".

A lot of bluster and banter here for a very simple idea which has worked for Rugby, Boxing and Cricket. It could work for football.

Actually, no I don't want someone's reserve team. It was sarcasm on my part as you correctly point out. All I want is for all the players on the island to be brought together and put into one team and see what comes out of it. A damn site better than the Republic on their own or the North on their own could produce. More the merrier concept - you know. And come on down to the South, I'll buy you a drink and we can sit and watch a game or two and have a bit of fun. You might even like it.

It's not an idea that has worked well for other sports because those sports have always been operated on an all-Ireland basis and, as Gather Round mentioned, many of the best still opt to represent the UK. There's no precedent for an ROI and NI team joining together in recent times.

And the point you're missing is that the NI team represents a distinct community and they seemingly don't want to subsume their identity into the ROI. Any pan-national football team would require both NI and ROI sacrifice their unique identity and I don't think either side is prepared to do that, especially when the carrot is only a marginally better football team that still won't qualify for many competitions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mark12345

All I want is for all the players on the island to be brought together and put into one team and see what comes out of it. A damn site better than the Republic on their own or the North on their own could produce. More the merrier concept - you know.

---

How would you respond to someone suggesting we should lump ourselves into a "British Isles"/UK team or some similar entity?

Quote:

---

And come on down to the South, I'll buy you a drink and we can sit and watch a game or two and have a bit of fun. You might even like it.

---

I'm guessing this is directed at GR, which gives me a chuckle.

Where are you from yourself, Mark? Perhaps, it's you who'd be best advised taking yourself up to Belfast for a drink with the locals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grafter

My point is that we are not that badly served at present and that once or twice every generation it has been proved that we produce a world class talent. Nobody can predict as Trap would say "the next future".

---

You've just admitted in another thread that we're permanently in the doldrums. Why do you think this is and how do you suggest we tackle this problem, assuming you see it as such? Or are you content enough to leave the "production" of world-class talent to chance rather than design? Why settle for one or two lucky bright sparks in a generation? We should be looking at what countries like Belgium or Croatia are doing right at the minute. Belgium put a plan of action in place a decade ago and are reaping the rewards now. The current Belgian "golden generation" is by no means a product of chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

You've just admitted in another thread that we're permanently in the doldrums. Why do you think this is and how do you suggest we tackle this problem, assuming you see it as such? Or are you content enough to leave the "production" of world-class talent to chance rather than design? Why settle for one or two lucky bright sparks in a generation? We should be looking at what countries like Belgium or Croatia are doing right at the minute. Belgium put a plan of action in place a decade ago and are reaping the rewards now. The current Belgian "golden generation" is by no means a product of chance.

---

Do Belgium and Croatia have to contend with the religion of GAA in most parishes (and increasingly rugby) for the hearts and minds of their youth?