Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

The main story on last night's UTV Live News programme was about the boycott.

We had close to 10 minutes on that, and the eligibility issue.

According to the UTV Reporter, the IFA have tried several times to have the FIFA rules CHANGED.

Either this is just **** poor reporting, or it's a blatant lie.

The IFA fought with FIFA to have their rules UPHELD.

The IFA got what they wanted.

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And that's exactly it NB.
The eligibility issue is becoming a bigger issue than it oughta be. It seems that though with Ye being absolutely atrociously bad if late that its being pushed by someone (Worthy/IFA maybe?),
in order to justify the astonishingly awful nature of the performances of late.

In fact it says it all about the quality of your qualifying group that despite how we've played you could conceivably end up in the play-offs. And that will no doubt save Nigel's skin unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

And that's exactly it NB.
The eligibility issue is becoming a bigger issue than it oughta be. It seems that though with Ye being absolutely atrociously bad if late that its being pushed by someone (Worthy/IFA maybe?),
in order to justify the astonishingly awful nature of the performances of late.

In fact it says it all about the quality of your qualifying group that despite how we've played you could conceivably end up in the play-offs. And that will no doubt save Nigel's skin unfortunately.

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It's become a bigger issue because there are so many people who don't understand what the actual issue is!

There are people that think FIFA have given special dispensation for the FAI to select NI born players. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by awec

It's become a bigger issue because there are so many people who don't understand what the actual issue is!

There are people that think FIFA have given special dispensation for the FAI to select NI born players. Seriously.

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Whatever about the people, there are people employed by the IFA and BBC who think that too... read the transcripts above of Stephen Watson's questions. Terrible.

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Originally Posted by awec

It's become a bigger issue because there are so many people who don't understand what the actual issue is!

There are people that think FIFA have given special dispensation for the FAI to select NI born players. Seriously.

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Here's the truth that dare not be spoken in certain quarters.

The IFA, Northern Ireland fans, Stephen Watson, Jim Magilton or whoever are never going to stop Citizens of the Republic Of Ireland playing for the Republic Of Ireland.

By some still trying to stop this, I would argue that it will have the effect of more and more players deciding to throw their lot in with the FAI - ie. it is counterproductive.

It goes against the very grain of "Football For All".

If a player wants to play for the Republic of Ireland, let him.

If the IFA spent more time focusing on players who want to play for Northern Ireland, they might be in a better place.

They might actually want to look at why a player wants to play for the Republic of Ireland - I understand some funded research is being undertaken by the IFA in this regard.

I could save them a lot of time and money - it's because those players feel more of an affinity with the Republic of Ireland, than they do with Northern Ireland. Nothing complicated or sinister about that.

Changing Anthems, Flags etc is a red herring.

I see some Northern Ireland fans are giving Niall McGinn a bit of stick about stating he is a Republic Of Ireland supporter - big deal. Is it such a shock that a Nationalist supports the Republic Of Ireland??

At least Niall turned up to play - more than can be said of some of our Northern Ireland supporting players.

If Niall puts in 100% in a Northern Ireland shirt, I couldn't care less who he supports.

Where Niall, and any other player, says their prayers, or puts their X on a ballot paper is their business - nobody elses.

How they perform in a Northern Ireland shirt is the business of Northern Ireland supporters.

The issue of players using the IFA, before jumping ship to the FAI is a different discussion, but some Northern Ireland fans need to get it into their thran heads that the players who don't want to play for Northern Ireland aren't ever going to be forced to play for Northern Ireland.

Focus on those who do.

Good post NB.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

There was a few minutes discussion about the eligibility issue on last night's MNS (approx. 10 minutes in).

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1099059

Short interviews with Michael O'Neill, Tony Kane and Daniel Kearns.

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Just getting the opportunity to watch this now so I'll give a brief overview on my thoughts. Nothing really new added to the debate, mind. Con Murphy opens the issue by telling of the "growing number of players switching allegiance from north to south" and Eamonn Donohue, narrating over footage of Kernaghan and Crossley, tells of a "stark increase" in the number switching after putting aside their IFA caps. Although there is misleading later talk of floodgates opening and such, the latter is somewhat closer to reality in that not all players from the north to ever declare for the FAI have necessarily been capped at any level by the IFA, but then Alan Kernaghan never played for the IFA at any level either. And it being "all thanks to 1998's Good Friday Agreement" isn't at all true either. Surely after name-checking Kernaghan and Crossley, someone in RTÉ's research department would have noticed they played for us before 1998.

Kearns' chronology of events is enlightening as he appears to be suggesting that he went to the effort of getting his eligibility for u cleared up and clarified before receiving his phone-call from Sean McCaffrey.

Micahel O'Neill speaks of limiting the number of times a player eligible for two associations may change his allegiance throughout his career, but this is already limited to one switch anyway by the existing rules. Another "solution" suggested is the introduction of an upper age cap by which a player's allegiance ought to be decided if already capped by an association. This is often suggested, and, to be honest, I wouldn't take major issue with it if FIFA were to re-introduce it, but that's the thing; they scrapped the age limit from their statutes a few years ago after lobbying from the north African Francophone bloc of associations and it's highly unlikely they'd go back on that or introduce a one-off rule specific to the Irish situation. There's be no indication that they'd consider it. But I guess the IFA are more than free to campaign for this if they wish.

The "stealing" accusation is also rightly refuted and it's pointed out that the choice is fundamentally at the hands of the player. If the FAI were to agree to a "gentleman's agreement" whereby an age cap is introduced, they would still be potentially limiting the choice of a northern-born player to switch to us otherwise permitted by FIFA's current rules. John McDonnell also mentions having had English-born Johnny Gorman, now a full NI international, in his team when he was an under-age manager with the FAI, which I think shows the IFA up as being hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Here's the truth that dare not be spoken in certain quarters.

The IFA, Northern Ireland fans, Stephen Watson, Jim Magilton or whoever are never going to stop Citizens of the Republic Of Ireland playing for the Republic Of Ireland.

By some still trying to stop this, I would argue that it will have the effect of more and more players deciding to throw their lot in with the FAI - ie. it is counterproductive.

It goes against the very grain of "Football For All".

If a player wants to play for the Republic of Ireland, let him.

If the IFA spent more time focusing on players who want to play for Northern Ireland, they might be in a better place.

They might actually want to look at why a player wants to play for the Republic of Ireland - I understand some funded research is being undertaken by the IFA in this regard.

I could save them a lot of time and money - it's because those players feel more of an affinity with the Republic of Ireland, than they do with Northern Ireland. Nothing complicated or sinister about that.

Changing Anthems, Flags etc is a red herring.

I see some Northern Ireland fans are giving Niall McGinn a bit of stick about stating he is a Republic Of Ireland supporter - big deal. Is it such a shock that a Nationalist supports the Republic Of Ireland??

At least Niall turned up to play - more than can be said of some of our Northern Ireland supporting players.

If Niall puts in 100% in a Northern Ireland shirt, I couldn't care less who he supports.

Where Niall, and any other player, says their prayers, or puts their X on a ballot paper is their business - nobody elses.

How they perform in a Northern Ireland shirt is the business of Northern Ireland supporters.

The issue of players using the IFA, before jumping ship to the FAI is a different discussion, but some Northern Ireland fans need to get it into their thran heads that the players who don't want to play for Northern Ireland aren't ever going to be forced to play for Northern Ireland.

Focus on those who do.

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I agree with everything you say. Spot on NB.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I see some Northern Ireland fans are giving Niall McGinn a bit of stick about stating he is a Republic Of Ireland supporter - big deal. Is it such a shock that a Nationalist supports the Republic Of Ireland??

At least Niall turned up to play - more than can be said of some of our Northern Ireland supporting players.

If Niall puts in 100% in a Northern Ireland shirt, I couldn't care less who he supports.

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And a lot more than can be said of some of our so-called players.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

And a lot more than can be said of some of our so-called players.

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You guys think you have it bad? You should see our lot whenever a friendly is announced, they drop like flies. I think glandular fever has been used as an excuse recently, the player in question of course turned out for his club only 4 days later. He should market whatever medication he was on.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Comments made on BBC NI coverage after the Ireland v Northern Ireland Nations' Cup game by Jim Magilton:



Now after transcribing all of that I have learned a few things:
1. I never want to hear Jim Magilton's voice again.
2. I will never make it as a stenographer.
3. Listening to it so often has made it lose it's meaning as he really didn't say an awful lot in the end.
4. The ignorance re eligibility is only being highlighted by the IFA and their allies and the FAI really need to start underlining this fact and start standing up for the Irishmen and I'm sure women that have decided that their allegiance lies with their national team.
5. Trap didn't say at all what Stephen Watson alluded to. I will now transcribe that...

PS. Adam I'm sorry I don't have a link. I did what I could.

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For anyone interested (and UK-based), the highlights and this discussion are available on BBC's iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ll_24_05_2011/

I'm only getting the chance to watch it now so I'm guessing the discussion comes up late on in the programme.

Meanwhile, there's this video where Andy Donlon of Bohs' TV1 "puts the question to the fans of both Northern and the Republic of Ireland on players born in the North declaring for the South" for ExtraTime.ie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9eUq...ature=youtu.be

Some of the comments are quite bizarre and warped, but I suppose it gives an insight into the level of confusion that unfortunately exists around the issue. A friend of mine suggested that the video makes the NI fans sound like fascists and our fans sound like hippies; dare I say he wouldn't be far wrong? An Orange Order flag even makes a surprise appearance at 2:51.* One NI fan, who's of the belief that Darron Gibson is from Belfast, is claiming that Shay Given was actually born in the north but his birth certificate says he was born in the south. Did the FAI have it doctored for him? :confused:

Anyway, as Bonnie suggests, maybe it would be a good idea for the FAI to defend themselves against the accusations levelled and make a public statement outlining the facts and clearing up the issues once and for all. Or would that give credibility to the accusations? It's all well and good clearing matters up on here, but widespread confusion clearly still prevails within the wider public, both north and south.

P.S. How did that chap in the background at 1:43 make it into the NI fan section with his Ireland top? Wasn't there a strict policy of segregation in place?

*Not excusing the daft and out-of-place Vatican flag draped across the back of one of our supporters at 2:25, but is it so much of an issue within our support? Unsure myself; just putting that out there.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

For anyone interested (and UK-based), the highlights and this discussion are available on BBC's iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ll_24_05_2011/

I'm only getting the chance to watch it now so I'm guessing the discussion comes up late on in the programme.

Meanwhile, there's this video where Andy Donlon of Bohs' TV1 "puts the question to the fans of both Northern and the Republic of Ireland on players born in the North declaring for the South" for ExtraTime.ie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9eUqQY3ukc&feature=youtu.be

Some of the comments are quite bizarre and warped, but I suppose it gives an insight into the level of confusion that unfortunately exists around the issue. A friend of mine suggested that the video makes the NI fans sound like fascists and our fans sound like hippies; dare I say he wouldn't be far wrong? An Orange Order flag even makes a surprise appearance at 2:51.* One NI fan, who's of the belief that Darron Gibson is from Belfast, is claiming that Shay Given was actually born in the north but his birth certificate says he was born in the south. Did the FAI have it doctored for him? :confused:

Anyway, as Bonnie suggests, maybe it would be a good idea for the FAI to defend themselves against the accusations levelled and make a public statement outlining the facts and clearing up the issues once and for all. Or would that give credibility to the accusations? It's all well and good clearing matters up on here, but widespread
confusion clearly still prevails within the wider public, both north and south.

P.S. How did that chap in the background at 1:43 make it into the NI fan section with his Ireland top? Wasn't there a strict policy of segregation in place?

*Not excusing the daft and out-of-place Vatican flag draped across the back of one of our supporters at 2:25, but is it so much of an issue within our support? Unsure myself; just putting that out there.

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Probably worth noting that some of those interviewed are probably being interviewed after consuming a pint or ten.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

A friend of mine suggested that the video makes the NI fans sound like fascists and our fans sound like hippies; dare I say he wouldn't be far wrong?

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As I write this, bathed in the rainbow-esque glow of several lava lamps and enjoying some sitar music that I composed myself, it strikes me that.................um, what was I saying?

Danny it was at the very end of the highlights where Watson and Magilton were spouting.

What can we say.

Maybe we should all get together write up a pamphlet and deliver it to all the media organisations and associations to end this bull. I'm tired of it becoming the issue du jour.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Danny it was at the very end of the highlights where Watson and Magilton were spouting.

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As Trap said in his interview with Watson, it's left to the players concerned to make their decision. There's no FAI coercion or underhand tactics involved. Watson does manage to invent something out of Trap's semi-indecipherable answer when he alleges Trap had told him that FIFA "must sort out this eligibility rule", and Magilton agrees with him, accusing FIFA of hiding, but the fact is that CAS has already clarified matters, the rules are there in their clarity, plain as day for all to see, and every utterance from FIFA on the matter has been clear in reaffirming that the rules are the rules.

BBC Newsline report by Kevin Sharkey on the matter here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13542323

It was clearly produced prior to the game, but I just spotted it on the BBC site there now. Once again, it's possible it's only available for viewing to UK-based users, sorry.

A brief summation: Sharkey points out that dual nationality is open to those born in the north, giving them a choice, and that players from the nationalist community have lined out for "the country of their birth" in the past, and still do. He then highlights how others like Darron Gibson have opted to play for Ireland, however, with "more young players taking the same route"; there being little the IFA can do about it. A man is then interviewed, although it is unhelpful that no identity is provided, but I assume he is an IFA spokesman of some sort; he (surprisingly?) outlines the issue pretty well and in an informed manner. He does mention the Good Friday Agreement, however, as if it's fundamental. In reality, I don't see how it is, given the declarations before 1998, other than it having possibly added a greater sense of legitimacy to the selection of northern-born players. He later talks about how FIFA have laid out their statutes and how these were subject to judicial interpretation by CAS. He concludes that "because FIFA is subject to that jurisdiction, [the judicial interpretation by CAS] would appear to be definitive." Even if FIFA weren't bound by CAS, and I'm not so sure they actually are, as UEFA have yet to permit the Gibralter FA member status despite CAS ruling that it met the required criteria, FIFA's current rules and stance are in line with the CAS judgment anyway.

Sharkey, walking casually across Windsor's hallowed turf, goes on to mention that a particular sore point with the IFA is that it feels it "grooms, nurtures and spends a lot of money on developing these young players with the ultimate aim of having them line out for NI at Windsor Park at senior international level" but the FAI are "reaping the benefits". I feel this claim is open to debate for the reasons I outlined in this post in the Shane Ferguson thread.

It is made apparent that the IFA "want redress" and then cuts to an ill-informed interview with Nigel Worthington who says the issue "needs to be more black and white" with the "indecision" needing to be "put to bed once and for all".

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

In fact it says it all about the quality of your qualifying group that despite how [you've] played you could conceivably end up in the play-offs

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Can't see us finishing second, it would probably mean having won two of the three games against Serbia and Estonia home and away. Who would score the goals?

Although it's worth remembering that our group was widely identified as one of the stronger when the draw was made. Give n that there were three of the 2010 finalists in it.

We've been poor: Serbia and Slovenia arguably even more so.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

We've been poor: Serbia and Slovenia arguably even more so.

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NI has had an excellent qualification campaign so far. An away win in Slovenia - how many times in living memory as NI won against a team of similar rank to Slovenia? NI has drawn at home to both Italy and Slovenia, both WC finalists and NI had the led in the game away to Serbia.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

NI has had an excellent qualification campaign so far

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Ha ha. Morning IFK.

Think of the campaign as a round of golf: achieve par and we have a chance the play-off,

Slovenia, par 1 point, result 3
ITALY, par 1 result 1
Faeroes, par 3, result 1
Serbia, par 0, result 0
SLOVENIA, par 3, result 1

thus far par 8, points 6

FAEROES par 3
SERBIA par 1
Estonia par 1
ESTONIA par 3
Italy par 0

Par for the course 16. To get that now we need three more wins. I think Slovenia will go into their last game (home to Serbia) with 14 points (they'll likely beat Estonia and Faroes and lose away to Italy), Serbia would have 13 if they beat the Faeroes and draw with us and Italy.

NI has taken 4 points from Slovenia, a WC finalist. That's an excellent return for NI. I'm sure Slovenia would have been targeting at least a return of 4 points from their double-encounter with NI. Prior to these matches, I would have expected NI to take 1 point in Belfast and to lose in Slovenia. +3 points

A draw at home to Italy is a great result. They have a far greater pick of players both in terms of numbers and quality than what's available to NI. I would have expected Italy to beat NI in Belfast. +1 point

It was always going to be difficult for NI to get a draw or win against Serbia away from home but NI did take the lead so they were competitive for a period of time in that game. I would have expected Serbia to beat NI at home prior to the match. +/- 0 points.

The only result so far in the campaign that can be perceived as below par by a NI supporter is the draw away to the Faroes Islands. I don't think NI should see that result as two points lost but rather as one pointed gained. After all the Faroes excel at the ultra-defensive tactics - NI struggle to score goals, the Faroes had the lead in that game and NI did extremely well to get an equaliser. I was confident prior to that match that NI would struggle to win away to the Faroes. A draw on the balance of play was pretty fair. +/-0 points

So to summarise, and in the opinion of a neutral observer :), NI has amassed 4 points more than what would have been expected prior to the playing of these matches. It has been an excellent campaign so far for NI.

The North won't qualify (extremely doubtful we will) and in general we should ignore their collective whining....

Jim Boyce saying northern-born players who have declared for us would have been better off playing with NI.

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Former Irish FA president Jim Boyce has sent a clear message to the young Northern Ireland players thinking about declaring for the Republic of Ireland, stating: “Don't do it”.

Boyce has been dismayed to see several players who turned out for Northern Ireland youth teams recently decide to switch allegiance and go south.

The situation has infuriated the Green and White Army who believe the FAI are taking advantage of the Good Friday Agreement and poaching gifted youngsters from the IFA.

Boyce is aware of the political element in this issue and that young Catholics who have grown up supporting the Republic may want to go down that road, but suggests looking at it from a pure footballing point of view it is the wrong route to take.

He said: “I’m very sad to see so many players switching allegiance. With the situation in the country now I don’t feel young players have any reason, if they are born in Northern Ireland, for not wanting to play for the country of their birth.

“All of these players leaving Northern Ireland are not going to get on the Republic of Ireland team because they have a lot more to choose from than ourselves, yet with us they would be regulars, which is surely better for them than being bit-part players.”

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I see the Belfast Telegraph are now attributing to NI fans the mistaken belief that the GFA has anything to do with northern-born Irish nationals being eligible to play for Ireland. If I'm not mistaken, they've consistently been misreporting that along with other incorrect information on player eligibility and the relevant rules themselves for quite some time. As for Boyce, like so many, unfortunately, in a supposed era of cross-community understanding and tolerance, he's clearly missing the point if he sees no reason why a northern-born Irishman would rather play for Ireland, even if it does come at the cost of the player exposing himself to a greater competition for places.

Jim Boyce says "Just say NO" :)

BBC have a well hidden article about some letter from OWC fans on the eligibility situation.

"We believe this situation to be unique in world football, whereby one national association may select two jurisdictions worth of players," he said.

Eh? what nonsense! Any 2nd generation Irish national, born anywhere in the world, can declare for the FAI under article 15.
First generation Irish nationals born in the North, have the same FIFA eligibility right (to declare for the FAI) as any 2nd generation Irish national, born anywhere in the world. Many other countries have similar citizenship laws (Jus sanguinis).
"Unique", my hole!
Now they want FIFA to change the rules to fit in with their narrow ignorant world view.

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Originally Posted by Some NI fans quoted on the BBC

We believe this situation to be unique in world football, whereby one national association may select two jurisdictions worth of players

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Originally Posted by geysir

Eh? what nonsense! Any 2nd generation Irish national, born anywhere in the world, can declare for the FAI under article 15. First generation Irish nationals born in the North, have the same FIFA eligibility right (to declare for the FAI) as any 2nd generation Irish national, born anywhere in the world. Many other countries have similar citizenship laws..."Unique", my hole!

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Other countries may have similar laws (where pretty much everyone in the country automatically qualifies for citizenship of another country), but I can't think of any off-hand. Can you remind me?

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Jus sanguinis

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This always reminds me of an exotic cocktail, like a bloody Mary. The literal 'blood law' sounds a bit sinister...

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Other countries may have similar laws (where pretty much everyone in the country automatically qualifies for citizenship of another country), but I can't think of any off-hand. Can you remind me?

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That might grate your loyal sensitivities, but Irish citizenship is a civil right, democratically accepted by referenda into constitutional law in both the North and the South.

By this stage we can all accept that what is relevant to eligibility for a national team, is the wording of FIFA article 15.
A player born in another country qualifies for another association if they are entitled to automatic citizenship of the territory

The FIFA rule is
Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country.
Jus sanguinis is that policy of granting automatic citizenship to children of citizens, no matter where in the world the child is born.

Article 15 eligibility applies to all such automatic citizens/permanent nationality, not dependent on residence in a certain country. That applies to all countries who follow Jus sanguinis as part of their citizenship laws. Most European countries adopt the policy of 'jus sanguinis' in their citizenship laws.

So, players born in one country are perfectly entitled to declare for another country, under FIFAarticle 15, if they have that other country's nationality as a birthright. That pretty much shoves the claim of so called "uniqueness" into the rubbish bin, as how it relates to FIFA article 15.

The part that is unique to Ireland is that most all NI born have the choice as a birthright.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Other countries may have similar laws (where pretty much everyone in the country automatically qualifies for citizenship of another country), but I can't think of any off-hand. Can you remind me?

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Germany.

Seems Jim Boyce has gone and become a FIFA vice-president... uh oh...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13615860

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Originally Posted by geysir

That might grate your loyal sensitivities

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I don't have any loyal sensitivities- I just treat each issue on its merits. Anyway (as you must know as I've repeated often enough here), I've no problem with you (plural) giving me and everyone else from NI citizenship and the right to play for your football team.

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The part that is unique to Ireland is that most all NI born have the choice as a birthright

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Er, that was my point (ie, it's either unique Worldwide or pretty close to it).

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Germany

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Germany doesn't automatically give everyone from Poland (or even Upper Silesia or Miroslav Klose's ancestral village) automatic citizenship, does it?

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Seems Jim Boyce has gone and become a FIFA vice-president... uh oh...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13615860

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I'm not unduly concerned. Firstly on the eligibility issue, wouldn't the CAS decision still be supreme in the area of eligibility. And secondly, the fastest way Boyce could jeopardise his new position is to appear to be looking out for the interests of his own national association. But then again, words like legitimacy, transparency and democracy would not be words that would come to mind when one thinks of FIFA.

I must look into it, but I'd imagine a rule change would require widespread support from the various member associations. What powers does a FIFA vice-president actually have? (Not including behind-the-scenes ones.)

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Er, that was my point (ie, it's either unique Worldwide or pretty close to it).

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What is relevant is the FIFA statute 15 and as I pointed out, its application to citizens born outside its borders is not unique to Ireland.

If the IFA started a lobby to get 66% to support a proposal for a rule change, a change that radically alters the basis for International eligibility
just because some Irish citizens chose not to play for them, I would hazard a guess that they would get one or two votes at most.

Perceived power is very important here. If Boyce is seen as a power broker in comparison to the puny FAI then we could be in trouble down the line. Now what Delaney should do us align himself like a good boy to Platini and have his ear in these matters. Because I can see it getting hairy down the line. However the comments about the English FA today show how much respect Is actually garnered by the British associations and the IFA within FIFA.

I still think the FAI need to get their fingers out and start voicing what are the facts in this case so that they aren't behind the curve being seen to be defending a case rather than leading it.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I must look into it, but I'd imagine a rule change would require widespread support from the various member associations. What powers does a FIFA vice-president actually have? (Not including behind-the-scenes ones.)

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I think you're right. CAS' decision was final and binding as it applies to the current rules.

There'd be a lot of opinion against a rule change from North African and other African countries I reckon, because they would all want to recruit players brought up in te French underage system. Boyce would have to win over a whole continent which I think is unlikely.

It's quite scary thatn he is now a FIFA VP.

Can't see too much to worry about. It would require Boyce to dispute a CAS ruling and lobby for a controversial and radical change to the eligibility rules - and he didn't get to become VP by rocking any boats.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Can't see too much to worry about. It would require Boyce to dispute a CAS ruling and lobby for a controversial and radical change to the eligibility rules - and he didn't get to become VP by rocking any boats.

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Whilst you're 100% correct... it still could get scary and will make the IFA feel that they have a friend in high places.

From FIFA's webpage for their executive committee (which includes the eight vice-presidents):

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The Executive Committee consists of a President, elected by the Congress in the year following a FIFA World Cup™, eight vice-presidents and 15 members, appointed by the confederations and associations. It meets at least twice a year, with the mandate for each member lasting four years, and its role includes determining the dates, locations and format of tournaments, appointing FIFA delegates to the IFAB and electing and dismissing the General Secretary on the proposal of the FIFA President. (Art. 30 and 31 of the Statutes).

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I imagine that list isn't exhaustive as it seems to state that those duties mentioned are just some of the duties included in the executive committee's overall role. Anyway, of what's mentioned there, whilst the executive committee will have influence over who is appointed to the IFAB, the IFAB, as far as I can make out, helps only to determine the Laws of the Game, or how the game is played, in other words. There's no indication that those respective associations that form the IFAB have any greater say than any other association when it comes to deciding the FIFA statutes and the regulations governing the application of those statutes, which deal with what one might call the administrative side of the game, including eligibility issues.

From the statutes' webpage:

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Changes to the FIFA Statutes can only be made by the FIFA Congress and require a three-quarter majority of the associations present and eligible to vote.

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FIFA's congress is separate from its executive committee and it is essentially just another term for the coming together of all of FIFA's member associations to vote on a particular matter, with each member association being accorded one vote, of course, "in the spirit of true democracy". Apparently...

On the surface then, it would appear that Jim Boyce isn't really in any significant or improved position to influence a change of the statutes from when he was, say, the president of a "mere" association, the IFA. Either way, he is just one vice-president and I can't envisage a rule-change on the eligibility issue anyway; article 15 being the general and accepted principle and FIFA, most likely, unwilling to intervene in an issue that would no doubt open a political can of worms for them. Best for them to just leave it be, I'd say. And the last thing Blatter would want right now is an earful from Eamon Gilmore!

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Originally Posted by geysir

What is relevant is the FIFA statute 15 and as I pointed out, its application to citizens born outside its borders is not unique to Ireland.

If the IFA started a lobby to get 66% to support a proposal for a rule change, a change that radically alters the basis for International eligibility
just because some Irish citizens chose not to play for them, I would hazard a guess that they would get one or two votes at most.

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Even if they got 66 per cent of associations to back their proposal, it wouldn't do them much good. Such a change would actually require 75 per cent of support from the FIFA congress, from what I can make out anyway.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Whilst you're 100% correct... it still could get scary and will make the IFA feel that they have a friend in high places.

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It'll certainly run and run. But I think it could actually get funnier for those who enjoy the IFA getting embarrassed, since Boyce seems more likely to rebuff their petitions in favour of promoting playing for NI by choice rather than coercion (like he did in today's reports about him seeing no reason players couldn't choose NI).

Plus FIFA bun fights is one of the few scenarios where I'm glad we've got Delaney in our corner. With CAS and loads of already nations already predisposed against change, I'm certain Delaney would outmanoeuvre Boyce, should it come to that.

I think the last thing WE'D want is Gilmore going near anything as important as eligibility issues. Best leave him to deal with our lesser foreign diplomacy issues.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

It'll certainly run and run. But I think it could actually get funnier if anyone likes the IFA getting embarrassed, since Boyce seems more likely to rebuff their petitions in favour of promoting playing for NI by choice rather than coercion (like he did in today's reports about him seeing no reason players couldn't choose NI).

Plus FIFA bun fights is one of the few scenarios where I'm glad we've got Delaney in our corner. With CAS and loads of already nations already predisposed against change, I'm certain Delaney would outmanoeuvre Boyce, should it come to that.

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That's funny you should say that whilst I loathe Delaney and think he's a creep I have to say he's great at the politicking. See the Rooney F episode.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

I still think the FAI need to get their fingers out and start voicing what are the facts in this case so that they aren't behind the curve being seen to be defending a case rather than leading it.

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I think that would be a good idea. If anything, at least it might help clear up some of the confusion (or flush out some of the nonsense, even) that seems to prevail.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think you're right. CAS' decision was final and binding as it applies to the current rules.

There'd be a lot of opinion against a rule change from North African and other African countries I reckon, because they would all want to recruit players brought up in te French underage system. Boyce would have to win over a whole continent which I think is unlikely.

It's quite scary thatn he is now a FIFA VP.

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Whilst it's in the interests of FIFA to generally adhere to CAS rulings and appear in some way accountable to an independent external body, CAS rulings aren't necessarily binding upon FIFA, as the Gibraltar Football Association's failed efforts to gain UEFA membership via an appeal to CAS demonstrated. UEFA and FIFA just defied the CAS ruling favouring Gibraltar's admission after intense lobbying by the Royal Spanish Football Federation to reject the Gibraltarian application.

Even if the CAS judgment was binding upon FIFA's rules, it would only be so as they currently stand. FIFA could easily amend their rules as they so wished and the judgment would no longer be applicable to or effective upon the new wording. Not that that's at all likely to happen, mind.

You're quite right about the African associations. It was the north and west African francophone bloc that lobbied to have the age limit on an association change lifted in the first place and it's unlikely the IFA will ever have the influence to overturn that development. Unless they could somehow get the French Football Federation on their side in light of the recent disillusionment expressed from figures within that federation who seem a bit disgruntled with French-born players working their way through the French youth academies only to later declare for the country of their parents, usually in north or west Africa.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I think that would be a good idea. If anything, at least it might help clear up some of the confusion (or flush out some of the nonsense, even) that seems to prevail.

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I don't see what confusion needs to be cleared up other than from a few fans and one association. The FAI responded when they needed to and the facts of the case have been established to all but the most intransigent.

It hardly seems worthwhile rebuffing a collective whinge but if moaning does begin to turn into something more threatening, at UEFA or FIFA, then I'd hope the FAI would be swift to act.