What are the results proof of Paul, that we're not a football superpower?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
If you think last night was a terrible performance your expectations are completely unrealistic and unrepresentative of the entire history of results of the Ireland team.
Or maybe I think we are simply a better team than last nights performance showed, against a team who were torn apart by Armenia.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Technically we're still in it to top the group, but in reality that would require taking 6 points from Macedonia, beating Slovakia and taking a point from Moscow. That's a big ask, and won't be achieved unless we get guys like Doyle, Duff and Hunt back and improve the situation of Robbie/Given.Quote:
Originally Posted by harpstilidie
In reality, we're in the hunt for second yet again. On the plus side, I think we're looking in a much better position that Slovakia.
Their result in Moscow seems like a freak result, for both those teams, Russia look strong and have gotten 6 points out of tough trips to Dublin and Skopje.
if we beat Slovakia in Dublin we'll be looking very good to finish ahead of them. To be honest I don't think we'll even need to do that, I can see them being more likely to drop points against Macedonia than us, while I think Russia will be targeting a win in Slovakia for revenge and to basically clinch top spot.
That would mean that even if we slip up against Macedonia and only got a draw away, we could lose to Russia in Moscow, and beat Slovakia in Dublin and still come second.
So, we're aiming for second again. This time we're in a very good position to make it, and that's not a bad situation to be in up against a side that reached the knockout stage of the World Cup and a Russian side who can play some fantastic stuff. Just a little dissapointing/frustrating when you think a late equaliser against russia, and Robbie's penalty going in in Zilina and we'd be looking great for first.
"Plenty of teams go to these places and win".
Yes, and they do so by scoring from the clear cut chances they create. We didn't do this in Switzerland or Israel.
I think we played better last night than, for example, NI did in Slovenia. Look, if Slovakia had missed a penno and 2 clear cut chances, and yet we drew the whole country would be on the "lucky Trap" bandwagon and we'd be berated. We let 2 points slip, no doubt whatsoever, but the general performance was good enough to win a game like this.
We have good players who were unavailable (Duff, Hunt, Doyle, Andrews) and I think most of us agree that we probably have better players in some positions currently being overlooked. The good news is that Fahey & Long have really stepped up. The team / squad needs a bit of refreshing and the cobwebs need to be dusted off defending set-pieces and in front of goal.
Anyway, Indo self-loathing watch: neutral ref gave Slovakia nothing and the penalty was unnecessarily harsh.
It was a clear penalty.
Stutts, i dont really know what yer other point is? Of course the team who scores more goals wins.
In the context of the Russian game, I thought our first half performance last night was quite good. The inclusion of Fahey in the team certainly made the difference as we had a player in midfield that wasn't afraid to put a foot on the ball and he had a player that was capable of actually doing something on the ball. Indeed our two best players on the night were Fahey and Long, which I think puts pay to the notion that we don't have anybody to bring in.
We certainly died in the second half - whether that was because of the disappointment of missing the penalty or something said at half time I don't know.
I think we could have done with a player like Stokes on the bench last night. I see him as an ideal replacement to have for Robbie when things aren't going Robbie's way like last night.
Also think there's an urgency to have something done about our full backs. Foley needs to be given a go and I think St Ledger should be dropped with JOSH moving into the centre to make this happen. I'd actually continue with Kilbane for the time being - half the problem with Kilbane is the lack of help he's getting from McGeady.
Last night's result would have been lauded as wonderful if we had beaten or drawn against the Russians on Friday night. On rte, on here and in the papers.
It was Friday night where we had the setback and our weaknesses exposed by a technically superior outfit. Not last night.
Last night was a typical Irish away performance, 100% from everyone, some shaky moments, some good play - generally though I thought we looked very solid, especially in the second half. They are a big strong physical side who will cause anyone a problem from set pieces, and they caused us a few from those positions last night. In open play we looked the better side when we got the ball down, and I thought and only for our top striker being out of form we probably would have won the game.
Its a bit of a scrap now alright but if we win our home games ( Armenia, Slovakia, Macedonia ) , get draws away to Macedonia and Russia and beat Andorra away - that should be good enough for second.
Not sure if topping the group was ever realistic.
I think it's fair to say at this stage that this team has major problems with winning games, they have absolutely no killer instinct as they've shown time and time again. It's a huge problem, we don't look like winners, ever. Just about the only time we looked a little like a winning team was when we hit late on to draw in Italy, and even then we could have won it even later and fluffed it. To have not one a single big game in so long is ridiculous, you'd think we'd have had one lucky win by now at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Another poor night at the office.
They were there for the taking and we let them off the hook. If Robbie had scored the penalty would we have won? Doubtful.
We're no worse off than we were at the start of the game. Let Russia run away with it now, and gear up for a fight for 2nd. Has to be 6 against Macedonia, then things should look a bit better.
As for the 3 wise men, Giles and Dunphy don't watch any football unless they're sitting in the RTE studio. Their lack of knowledge could fill several libraries.
Paul, I can see what you're getting at - I think all of us here would like to see a tangible improvement in turning near-misses into successes. That's what we'll judge Trap on and, based on that, we haven't really progressed in the last year. It's frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
But we're competing and I think playing better, with less options, than under Kerr and Staunton. I think ORA's right - it's unrealistic to suppose we're going to blow these teams off the park. There's absolutely no evidence to support that idea. It is realistic to expect us up our game and really get at teams away from home - and last night we did that.
The performance was a great improvement on Friday. We played some nice stuff, defended better and created far more chances than them, away from home. As far as away performances go, it was one of our better ones. Just unfortunate our main finisher had an off night. Frustrating, yes, but there's plenty of room for optimism based on the performance. As Stutts said, five months to get it right before two big, big games against the Macedonians.
So manage expectations, setting in again. We are happy now for second. Come june we will be happy to fight it out for second and then september, just happy that we have a chance of still coming second if results go our way....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
My point is simple: the general performance was good enough to win a game like that, we just wasted the chances we created. You were saying the general performance was awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Slovakia's next two games are Andorra home and away, so they will expect to pick up 6 points there, meaning we will have to match their results against Macedonia to still be in contention for second when the return game comes around next September.
guys, don't forget about Armenia who look like a useful outfit. They certainly look like contenders for 2nd atm.
Six points would put us in pole position with Slovakia and Armenia at home as well as Andorra. Looks like away to Macedonia is going to be the crucial game of the campaign. Nervous already.
It wasn't though. Bar a penalty, a fair one albeit and robbies miss thats all we created(the one over the bar was good build up play and ball in, but robbie made the play for himself). In the second half had we even 1 shot on target. that is not good enough to win a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Its funny had we maybe played armenia last night we might well have only got a draw and people would have said a good result too. Its all psychological with the fans and players it seems. Its as though we put teams on a pedestal and give them too much respect, if we think they are a good side then they are a good side.
away from the game for a minute, I was reading through the articles on soccerrepublic. Is it just me or have they become slightly more critical of the side since the sponsorship with eircom expired? Probably not too surprising.
To be fair to Brady, he did admit his mistake and that Trapattoni needed to be informed about thisQuote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
Bill mentioned Maguire and O'Hara as having declared for Ireland, and Brady said that he was sure O'Hara hadn't declared yet. They didn't say they didn't know anything about Maguire, they just didn't discuss him. Bill said he scored a hat trick against Celtic, but he only scored one.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
The target was to get the results to top the group, we are not yet good enough for that - unless Russia collapse - now we accept 2nd place if it's going.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Happy doesn't come into it.
Last night was a performance to put us slightly ahead for 2nd place spot and it was far from a performance needed by a team challenging for 1st spot.
In the short term - to the next batch of qualifiers in Spring - we need a total overhaul at centre midfield -
by next June we need 2 full backs, - a flat back 4 wont get us through a play off, if we make it that far.
I think we have good enough players elsewhere.
Yeah I think if Robbie had scored there's every chance we would have let them back into it. Possible in injury time.Quote:
Originally Posted by twoenz
Incidentally what was the story with the ref Stopping the game on 91 minutes cos of injury and instead of dropping the ball just blowing the game up? Annoyed me
meh :brolly:
There's no point not being realistic. If Keane's chip against Russia goes in after 10 minutes, chances are we're talking today about winning the group. We're now probably not going to win the group looking at it realistically. That's disappointing, we had a chance to do that after the first 2 games, maybe even after the russia game we still could. Slovakia would have said the same before the thing started, and certainly would have looked at winning it after beating Russia. Now though it's the Russian's in pole position.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
That could all change if we go out and beat Macedonia twice, Slovakia at home and finally win a big away game in Moscow. Should we look to win every game in the hope of that happening - of course. But when a point in Moscow could be so crucial, I don't exactly like the idea of going hell for leather looking for goals over there and letting Kerzhakov, Arshavin and the rest run at Kilbane, Whelan or whoever's playing that day. I think some people have great delusions about Keith Fahey or James McCarthy imperiously strutting around the Luzhniky stadium if only if it wasn't for our defensive tactics. But just look at how Russia picked us apart towards the end of the game on Friday when we pushed forward.
A point in Moscow would be great, it would set us up for finishing second. And maybe with a bit of luck for once we'll finally take a half-chance and nick a 1-0 win. Unlikely, but not beyond the realms of possibility.
we have duff / hunt / lawerence / doyle to add to last nights team. its not all bad and i dont think russia are dead certs to run away with this group. anything could happen yet.
We say the same everytime jicked.
At the end of the day as oleary would say, your first paragraph comes back to the point, that the russians were favourites, and are top of the group, no matter what happened they are still there. So you can have your permutations, what ifs, we can do, we could still etc etc results and the tables dont lie. We are joint 2nd with 2 others, its hardly where we wanted or thought we would be(2nd, perhaps), or should be happy with after the '10 games.
As ever the voice of reason. I'll try to be as fair, while still trying to be realistic when I give my tuppence worth later!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Its not kingdom its looking optimistically rather than on previous results and history, and you can see your future - its mapped out in scars.
Your wrong. They're paid good money to improve the ratings, and given their history if there is a hint of controversy they will do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
They've been on the box longer than I've been watching Ireland matches and it's very obvious that when they were initially selected, it was done on the basis of Giles knows how football should be played (very relevant when he started) while Dunphy was a good journalist and a former player. 25 years later, Giles still knows how football should be played but his knowledge of footballers in a general sense is almost embarrasing. Dunphy is no better, but he does try to waffle his way out of it.
The difference between the paid analysts and someone like myself is that my interest is solely on the National team, and all it's tributaries, whether that's the underage teams, the FAI, the management, or the emerging eligible players such as Barry Maguire, Hogan Ephraim or Selcuk Tidim, whereas the paid analysts are interested in some of the English teams, how they compete in the EPL and the CL, and then the National team.
Oh and the small matter of them having the professional experience to back their assertions up!
That's the single biggest thing to take from the weekend just gone unfortunately. Come the return game, we in all reality be at best still level with Slovakia, and perhaps trailing them, meaning they can come to Dublin, throw men behind the ball and try hit us on the break. A big worry unfortunately. We'd a chance last night to really hurt them, and as a consequence keep us in touch with Russia, and neither happened. Disappointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
We are playing for second place and against two rivals now(Armenia and Slovakia). But the second half last night showed again we are going to have real problems closing out our remaining home games and the away game to Macedonia (Andorra we will beat). There is something wrong that is not being addressed by the management. yes we will have some players back (and will probably lose some as well) but so will the other teams. I watched the game again this morning and it is crystal clear that we adpoted a what we have we hold in the second half. Free kicks played backwards. Whelan turning back towards his goal at every opportunity to play the ball. Thankfully McGeady decided to play the Slovakians by himself. But we still ended up drawing with a very, very poor team. Thankfully there is a gap now and we desperately need some new QUALITY players introduced. But again I'm not convinced Trap is going to make a whole lot of changes against Norway. I hope I'm wrong.
given that we were seeded third, is it any great surprise that we are playing for second?
The timing of when teams get their 6 points from Andorra is irrelevant in my opinion. Slovakia, or anyone, would be stupid to deploy a game plan in Dublin that ignores the near certainty of us getting 3 points in Andorra. It's the state of the relative results against the other teams that's important.
We're marginally ahead of Slovakia in my book, mainly because we have still to play Slovakia at home. If we win that then it's very much advantage us.
If we beat Slovakia at home we need to match their remaining results to finish ahead of them.*
Our respective Russia and Armenia results to date cancel each other out.
They beat Macedonia at home, but we'd expect to do that too. I don't think that's much of a result to have "in the bag".
I think the fact that Slovakia have Russia at home favours them perhaps. They're likely to get more points from Russia at home than we will away.
Winning the group is unlikely given our propensity to avoid winning winnable games.
* is it head-to-head or GD that decides if 2 teams are level?
what you have to ask yourselves is what happens if russia lost to slovakia a away, we are in real pressure cooker stuff there.
I agree with noely, last few posts have been sensible, its a bad return, we have been poor, others will miss players too and so will we. I dread the scenario above, although it would bring us right back into it, it would mean russia would have the ball in their court(in terms of us playing them away and all their home games) and slovakia could pip top.....
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Certainly.Quote:
We're marginally ahead of Slovakia in my book, mainly because we have still to play Slovakia at home. If we win that then it's very much advantage us.
It's head to head that counts first. So beating them at home becomes the imperative.Quote:
If we beat Slovakia at home we need to match their remaining results to finish ahead of them.*
I disagree here. We struggled badly against Montenegro last year. How much of that was a hangover from the Italy game? Who knows? I doubt very much that the Macedonians will be at that level away from home, but they posed problems for the Slovaks, who were blessed to take the three points.Quote:
They beat Macedonia at home, but we'd expect to do that too. I don't think that's much of a result to have "in the bag".
It's not just that though, it's the fact that they play Russia after we play in Moscow. Russia could need to beat us to finish off the group, while they could be going to Slovakia with little to play for.Quote:
I think the fact that Slovakia have Russia at home favours them perhaps. They're likely to get more points from Russia at home than we will away.
Unfortunately.Quote:
Winning the group is unlikely given our propensity to avoid winning winnable games.
GREEN-APOCOLYPSEQuote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1876/endnigh5.jpg
No, it's a fair cop guv, and sometimes people lose the run of themselves both positively and negatively. I'm as guilty as anyone before a match. Retrospectively I try to be balanced. I wonder how many people go back and watch the matches in full again to challenge themselves more than anything, and to form an opinion free of the emotion during a match?Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
I'd reckon there would be a bit of a difference!
Just to add to your point kingdom, if it goes on head to heads, russia slip up against slovakia or even someone else, we are all level, if we draw with slovakia at home which is probably what will happen, we go out because russia beat us, and slovakia beat russia, so they go top and russia go second. I could actually see this happening, as i see probably getting a draw in russia.
There's a lot of football to be played yet. Both Russia and Slovakia will drop points in their remaining games. And I think we have players to come in and improve us.
ON what basis do you think Russia, will drop points, their loss at home was a blip, one which they were unlucky to at least not get a draw, on any other day they would have. they have showed nothing but professionalism and killer instinct to win games out.
Slovakia and Armenia will drop points. BUt i really don't see where people are getting this Russia will drop points from argument.
Macedonia missed a penalty relatively late in the game yesterday with Russia paul_oshea. Defensively Russia looked weak against us. They lost at home to a poor Slovakian side. They laboured to a 2-0 victory against Andorra. So yeah I think they'll drop points further along.
What a difference a few days make - we're well a truly back to our default position of competing for 2nd.
Trapp tends to mention "Mentality" during interviews and lot of our expectations for the rest of the group are now based on a dog fight for 2nd as opposed to topping the group and avoiding another potential heartbreak of a playoff.
Keane's missed chances cost us the win last night and reiterates an old theme with Trapp.
The tactics we currently deploy requires a ruthlessness in front of goal when the few opportunities arise.
There's quite a few teams would have dominated less in the first half - that would have put a few past Slovakia last night.
Keane had an off night - and there's reasons for it - he's far from finished, provided he gets first team football and his sharpness should return.
That said - if we continue to pass up these big chances in games - we'll struggle.
I'd like to see McCarthy, Wilson and Treacy all involved against Norway. We've a few to return from injury also.
The next series of head to heads will really shape the group -most notably, the Russians v Armenians and ourselves against our old friends - The Macedonians.
Russia have really got themselves out of a spot and the advantage lies with them for top spot but there's a fair bit to go yet.
Make no mistake - Macedonia will be very tough.
Thing is unlike us they still won the games out.